Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[fatandfast]

I believe you know all this, but let's try to be factual:

1. Many riders dope and are punished for their doping with racing bans when caught. Few riders engage is corruption, doping conspiracy, witness intimidation and attempts to destroy other people's lives. That's the criminal behavior LeMond is accusing Lance of - where a simple lifetime racing ban (for a "retired" athlete) won't bring sufficient justice to.

2. Landis was ordered to repay $478,000 back to his donors as "restitution" - this is technically not a fine.

3. Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Hincapie, Vande Velde, Danielson will likely receive their punishment when the "reasoned decision" is handed out as it involves their statements. They're guilty of doping, not guilty for "helping" Lance. They will receive a reduced ban for helping USADA, an accommodation allowed by the WADA code.

yes I do know. I want all of the US riders that are involved to be punished now, not later. The fact that CVV is the USPro champion as we sit here is wrong. If any federation knows that they have violated a rule, they should get slammed. Each guy playing the role of Mr.Niceguy rubs my hole. The Vaughters quotes about sitting around w his guys discussing doping,,again hole rub.
Start the punishment phase. What is "reasoned" about letting them sit on records and reputations that are as false as Armstrong's appears to be?

VN and CN did a career recap on Hincapie without a mention of doping,was that "reasoned"? Give Lance a lifetime,and each of them a half-lifetime ban ..now. Armstrong's punishment phase has zilch to do with Hincapie's initial punishment.

 

[D-Queued]

yes I do know. I want all of the US riders that are involved to be punished now, not later. The fact that CVV is the USPro champion as we sit here is wrong. If any federation knows that they have violated a rule, they should get slammed. Each guy playing the role of Mr.Niceguy rubs my hole. The Vaughters quotes about sitting around w his guys discussing doping,,again hole rub.
Start the punishment phase. What is "reasoned" about letting them sit on records and reputations that are as false as Armstrong's appears to be?

VN and CN did a career recap on Hincapie without a mention of doping,was that "reasoned"? Give Lance a lifetime,and each of them a half-lifetime ban ..now. Armstrong's punishment phase has zilch to do with Hincapie's initial punishment.

Some of us have been waiting for more than a decade to have Lance atone for his cheating.

I guess you will just have to wait like the rest of us. Not like any of these guys is trying to cheat us out of seven TdFs in a row, though, is it? So, no, can't agree that their record is anything close to Armstrong's. But, their reputations are certainly much better.

Maybe you could offer the USADA a donation to help them with their case expediting process.

Dave.

 

[Tubeless]

yes I do know. I want all of the US riders that are involved to be punished now, not later. The fact that CVV is the USPro champion as we sit here is wrong. If any federation knows that they have violated a rule, they should get slammed. Each guy playing the role of Mr.Niceguy rubs my hole. The Vaughters quotes about sitting around w his guys discussing doping,,again hole rub.
Start the punishment phase. What is "reasoned" about letting them sit on records and reputations that are as false as Armstrong's appears to be?

VN and CN did a career recap on Hincapie without a mention of doping,was that "reasoned"? Give Lance a lifetime,and each of them a half-lifetime ban ..now. Armstrong's punishment phase has zilch to do with Hincapie's initial punishment.

To be fair to USADA, they know that each and every word in the "reasoned decision" will be dissected by UCI, Lance's lawyers and the public at large so they're taking their time to get it right. This is likely the most anticipated doping evidence document ever.

If Lance had opted to contest the charges, it's possible that the witness testimony had remained secret longer than will now be the case.

Unlike with Lance, there's no official confirmation yet on the doping bans for the rest of the gang. We really don't know what Hincapie has admitted to, if anything. However, it won't be a happy day for him when his expected doping charges are announced. You can argue about the relative length of the ban vs. the doping offense, but they will all be labeled as dopers.

 

[thehog]

One thing is for sure. USADA had the entire report endorsed by the Feds. Not much wiggle room for the UCI and Armstrong unless they want to point fingers at the Feds. I’m seeing a nice big stamp on each page with its endorsement of the facts.

Am I right or wrong?

 

[Tubeless]

One thing is for sure. USADA had the entire report endorsed by the Feds. Not much wiggle room for the UCI and Armstrong unless they want to point fingers at the Feds. I’m seeing a nice big stamp on each page with its endorsement of the facts.

Am I right or wrong?

My guess is that there has been close collaboration on the document between USADA and WADA - but no involvement by other federal agencies. The FDA, justice department etc. don't play any official role in this and if they were even marginally involved could raise problematic issues for USADA as to the integrity and source of their own evidence.

 

[pastronef]

http://mobile.twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/255717789082468352?p=v

livestrong event in Austin with Jens, Machado etc..

 

[Deagol]

.....Lemond should embrace wide spread testing,at the USADA level rather than act as if the only athlete he cares about is Armstrong. That right isn't it, he does care about catching all the other dopers? doesn't he? don't they? or is this super high level of justice only for Armstrong?

....

Lemond was after Landis to come clean, totally bogus made-up argument against Lemond

 

[MarkvW]

One thing is for sure. USADA had the entire report endorsed by the Feds. Not much wiggle room for the UCI and Armstrong unless they want to point fingers at the Feds. I’m seeing a nice big stamp on each page with its endorsement of the facts.

Am I right or wrong?

USADA's report will stand or fall on its own merits. The fed case made that possible, that's all.

It's too hard to predict what McBruggen will do. It always seems to act in its own self-interest, but then it so often acts stupidly and irrationally. A lot does seem to depend on the quality of the evidence (if any) of UCI corruption contained in the report.

For me, the Lance Armstrong news is, after Floyd and Tyler, almost passé. We pretty much know how bad the USPS conspiracy was. I doubt anybody here will be surprised. The only real surprise may be found in USADA's evidence of UCI complicity in the conspiracy (if any).

 

[Benotti69]

http://mobile.twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/255717789082468352?p=v

livestrong event in Austin with Jens, Machado etc..

Voight is now a W****R.

 

[BroDeal]

For me, the Lance Armstrong news is, after Floyd and Tyler, almost passé. We pretty much know how bad the USPS conspiracy was. I doubt anybody here will be surprised. The only real surprise may be found in USADA's evidence of UCI complicity in the conspiracy (if any).

Assuming the USADA decides to go there to support tolling the SOL, the most damaging stuff will be the lengths that Armstrong went to keep his secrets. While the cycling public that is clued in knows it, it will come as a big surprise to outsiders that Armstrong did things like hiring people to smear LeMond on the Internet. Ultimately it will be acts like that that will destroy Armstrong's reputation among the prols. The doping can be dismissed as him doing what everyone else was doing. The non-doping stuff cannot.

 

[thehog]

USADA's report will stand or fall on its own merits. The fed case made that possible, that's all.

It's too hard to predict what McBruggen will do. It always seems to act in its own self-interest, but then it so often acts stupidly and irrationally. A lot does seem to depend on the quality of the evidence (if any) of UCI corruption contained in the report.

For me, the Lance Armstrong news is, after Floyd and Tyler, almost passé. We pretty much know how bad the USPS conspiracy was. I doubt anybody here will be surprised. The only real surprise may be found in USADA's evidence of UCI complicity in the conspiracy (if any).

I think you missed my point.

I think the FEDs will endorse each set of testimony as an accurate reflection that was said previously. That is all. It’s not a joint report the Feds will only provide an stamp of approval for each set of facts put forward.

 

[thehog]

Assuming the USADA decides to go there to support tolling the SOL, the most damaging stuff will be the lengths that Armstrong went to keep his secrets. While the cycling public that is clued in knows it, it will come as a big surprise to outsiders that Armstrong did things like hiring people to smear LeMond on the Internet. Ultimately it will be acts like that that will destroy Armstrong's reputation among the prols. The doping can be dismissed as him doing what everyone else was doing. The non-doping stuff cannot.

We need a speculation thread!

 

[MarkvW]

Assuming the USADA decides to go there to support tolling the SOL, the most damaging stuff will be the lengths that Armstrong went to keep his secrets. While the cycling public that is clued in knows it, it will come as a big surprise to outsiders that Armstrong did things like hiring people to smear LeMond on the Internet. Ultimately it will be acts like that that will destroy Armstrong's reputation among the prols. The doping can be dismissed as him doing what everyone else was doing. The non-doping stuff cannot.

Seems to me that Lance's efforts of late to preserve his brand are only serving to demonstrate how weak the brand is. I doubt we'll be seeing Lance doing much, if any, product endorsement in the years to come.

 

[MarkvW]

I think you missed my point.

I think the FEDs will endorse each set of testimony as an accurate reflection that was said previously. That is all. It’s not a joint report the Feds will only provide an stamp of approval for each set of facts put forward.

That will not happen--unless it happens in the course of a lawsuit. Selectively releasing information obtained in the course of a terminated investigation would be an effective way for the USA to paint a bull's eye on the Department of Justice, along with a sign that says "Sue Us!"

 

[BroDeal]

We need a speculation thread!

Yup.

I assume that LeMond dumped a ton of information on the USADA. He spent $1M+ on his lawsuit against Trek. I cannot imagine he would sit on all the material that was gathered. How Armstrong treated LeMond would be a text book case of how Armstrong wielded power to prevent his doping from coming to light in a timely manner and why the statute of limitations should not apply.

If I were writing the decision, I would stress the 1999 corticosteroid positive. That is a clear cut situation where Armstrong's doping should have resulted in a sanction. Punishment was avoided by committing forgery. That is way beyond just lying to anti-doping officials. The team manufactured evidence to excuse the positive, and there are mutliple witness who can verify that. This situation is probably the strongest argument for tolling the SOL.

 

[fatandfast]

Lemond was after Landis to come clean, totally bogus made-up argument against Lemond

Lemond has never said publicly that I know of that he wants to see the USADA standard adopted. So far most riders have accepted the same UCI standard that
didn't catch Armstrong, Vaughters,CVV,Levi,DZ,TD and others. The only person that has been exposed to the new higher level of testing is Armstrong, and he was toasted by it. Why not subject everybody to the same rules? If the USDA doesn't like UCI tests for Armstrong, because they say they were invalid and compromised,why expose admitted doping athletes to the lower standard rather than the higher one?
If guys that hold the current USPro and other national championships say they doped cool. If it's two years for all your offenses, again cool. but if they pull a Hamilton or Landis and say I wasn't doping all the time and here is when I started and stopped, those timelines need to be confirmed as to there validity. Major tour results are at stake as well as many national wins that will surely be overturned when the gang of five meet their fate in court. Even if no suspension is handed down certainly competing for a dozen years undetected and unconfessed would warrant at least the reversal of all wins during the lying period...same as Armstrong.

They can keep their money but they can'y keep the wins they cheated to get If Armstrong loses everything even if some tests are not irregular all the rest have to share the same fate. Afterall Armstrong is destroyed,not by IOC,UCI,ASO,TDU,TOC,WC,ect tests ,he is hammered by an USADA standard any podiums or yellow jersey awards need to be returned, same as Armstrong.

 

[Race Radio]

Funny that Wonderboy's paid liars point out USADA's outside leagal once did work for a tobacco client.

Armstrong main lobbyist and lawyer is Patton Boggs

Cigarette manufacturer Vector Group paid Patton Boggs $170,000 in 2010 to do lobby work

Thomas Hale Boggs Jr. and Darryl D. Nirenberg, have long represented the Smokeless Tobacco Council.

Agribusiness sector,which includes tobacco firms,accounts for 12 percent of Patton Boggs’ income, highest % among the largest lobbying firms

Patton Boggs was paid $120,000 in 2008 to lobby on behalf of the International Cigar and Pipe Retailers Association

 

[DominicDecoco]

Belhage supports Ashenden.

http://translate.google.com/transla...ten/Cykling/2012/10/09/1009102314.htm&act=url

 

[fatandfast]

Funny that Wonderboy's paid liars point out USADA's outside leagal once did work for a tobacco client.

Armstrong main lobbyist and lawyer is Patton Boggs

Cigarette manufacturer Vector Group paid Patton Boggs $170,000 in 2010 to do lobby work

Thomas Hale Boggs Jr. and Darryl D. Nirenberg, have long represented the Smokeless Tobacco Council.

Agribusiness sector,which includes tobacco firms,accounts for 12 percent of Patton Boggs’ income, highest % among the largest lobbying firms

Patton Boggs was paid $120,000 in 2008 to lobby on behalf of the International Cigar and Pipe Retailers Association

Is your point that tobacco lawsuits have not worked all over the world because of the different standards of law? What is a lobbyist income in Switzerland or Belgium compared with the US? How about legal fees in general in France lets say? The legal process that Armstrong has been exposed to can be described at the very least as irregular,can we at least agree on that?

 

[MarkvW]

Funny that Wonderboy's paid liars point out USADA's outside leagal once did work for a tobacco client.

Armstrong main lobbyist and lawyer is Patton Boggs

Cigarette manufacturer Vector Group paid Patton Boggs $170,000 in 2010 to do lobby work

Thomas Hale Boggs Jr. and Darryl D. Nirenberg, have long represented the Smokeless Tobacco Council.

Agribusiness sector,which includes tobacco firms,accounts for 12 percent of Patton Boggs’ income, highest % among the largest lobbying firms

Patton Boggs was paid $120,000 in 2008 to lobby on behalf of the International Cigar and Pipe Retailers Association

This tells me two things:
(1) Team Dopestrong will say anything--no matter how goofy--to defend Lance; and
(2) This is the best Team Dopestrong can come up with.

This line of argument is disingenuous and stupid at the same time. Is Lance's target audience easily deceived morons?

 

[sniper]

for how long will lance have the means to actually pay his paid liars?

 

[TexPat]

This tells me two things:
(1) Team Dopestrong will say anything--no matter how goofy--to defend Lance; and
(2) This is the best Team Dopestrong can come up with.

This line of argument is disingenuous and stupid at the same time. Is Lance's target audience easily deceived morons?

Umm, yeah.

 

[Benotti69]

Is your point that tobacco lawsuits have not worked all over the world because of the different standards of law? What is a lobbyist income in Switzerland or Belgium compared with the US? How about legal fees in general in France lets say? The legal process that Armstrong has been exposed to can be described at the very least as irregular,can we at least agree on that?

He signed up to it for years

He even looked forward to their investigation, remember

“Great to hear that USADA is investigating some of SI's claims. I look forward to being vindicated,''

No one else signed up to it seems to have a problem with it.

 

[ToreBear]

This tells me two things:
(1) Team Dopestrong will say anything--no matter how goofy--to defend Lance; and
(2) This is the best Team Dopestrong can come up with.

This line of argument is disingenuous and stupid at the same time. Is Lance's target audience easily deceived morons?

I see a script for an epic zombie movie coming out of Austin, Texas in the not so distant future.

 

[thehog]