Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[ChewbaccaD]

Both the scope and magnitude of FIFA corruption dwarf anything that professional cyclists could even dream of achieving.

Professional Wrestling is completely rigged, and the bad guys aren't even really bad guys, they're faking it! FIFA's got nothing on that! And talked about doping...

It is a complete absurdity to compare what the USADA said about Lance and USPS to FIFA, but you keep searching for a way to support your hero MarkvW!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Sure the TdF is the biggest show in cycling, but cycling itself is peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

Organized team doping in American football, at least, well predates Lance Armstrong--and it has always been much bigger.

Your third point is based on a flawed assumption. Painkiller abuse is a team problem in the NFL. It's not isolated abuse--it's team abuse.

Funny, Lance made a massive amount of money off of a sideshow, "dinky" sport...wonder how that could have possibly happened?

I wonder if the sport itself saw a MASSIVE influx of money, not to mention the sponsors and bike manufacturers? Hmmm...I wonder if protecting a cash cow ever occurred to any of them? Probably not, a dinky sport only attracts idiots, so none of them were smart enough to work out the fact that keeping things on the down-low might just benefit everyone. Probably just an isolated instance of small-time doping that's being blown out of proportion by a bunch of losers on the intertubes...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Funny too that people like MarkvW and BroDeal keep misquoting what was said, here, from the source: "...uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

Notice the first word, I highlighted it for you. All these other things you guys keep pointing out, yea, where have they been "uncovered" in the same manner in which the USADA uncovered the activities of USPS and Lance Armstrong? They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind like the fanboys are claiming. I highlighted the ACTUAL context of the quote for you. The quote "that sport" means cycling, don't know if you Einsteins picked up on that yet, so you're welcome.

Read the words carefully. All of those words have meaning. Then look at the ridiculous criticism you fanboys have of them. Then look at what those words mean again. Then just go STFU, pretty please, with sugar on top.

http://www.usada.org/about/meet-our-team/travis-t-tygart/

 

[Alpe73]

the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

SWEET! Well that settles that argument (the Canuck may beg to differ).
There will be those who go to the instant replay to confirm. If they hear, 'that SPORT' had ever seen, I guess it's game on again.

BTW, in terms of 'riled up', Chewy, you're the best, man!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Funny too that people like MarkvW and BroDeal keep misquoting what was said, here, from the source: "...uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

Notice the first word, I highlighted it for you. All these other things you guys keep pointing out, yea, where have they been "uncovered" in the same manner in which the USADA uncovered the activities of USPS and Lance Armstrong? They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind like the fanboys are claiming. I highlighted the ACTUAL context of the quote for you. The quote "that sport" means cycling, don't know if you Einsteins picked up on that yet, so you're welcome.

Read the words carefully. All of those words have meaning. Then look at the ridiculous criticism you fanboys have of them. Then look at what those words mean again. Then just go STFU, pretty please, with sugar on top.

http://www.usada.org/about/meet-our-team/travis-t-tygart/

Chewie,

The USADA claim per their press release is: "The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

First paragraph of: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

You'll note there is not time restriction on this. Indeed they include the word "ever". Thus, your claim: "They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind" is wrong on both counts.

I'm also intrigued that you interpret "...that sport has ever seen" to mean "...that cycling has ever seen".

If the claim had been "...that the sport has ever seen" I'd agree with you, as there is a reference to cycling in the same sentence. But as it's written, the logical interpretation appears to be all sport.

Even more interesting is that in your link about Tygart, the reference to "successful" is no longer there: "Tygart led the investigation into the team-wide U.S. Postal Service Pro-Cycling team doping conspiracy and the Lance Armstrong case, which uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

I wonder why "successful" is no longer there?

 

[neineinei]

Chewie,

The USADA claim per their press release is: "The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."

First paragraph of: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

You'll note there is not time restriction on this. Indeed they include the word "ever". Thus, your claim: "They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind" is wrong on both counts.

I'm also intrigued that you interpret "...that sport has ever seen" to mean "...that cycling has ever seen".

If the claim had been "...that the sport has ever seen" I'd agree with you, as there is a reference to cycling in the same sentence. But as it's written, the logical interpretation appears to be all sport.

Even more interesting is that in your link about Tygart, the reference to "successful" is no longer there: "Tygart led the investigation into the team-wide U.S. Postal Service Pro-Cycling team doping conspiracy and the Lance Armstrong case, which uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

I wonder why "successful" is no longer there?

Nope, Chewie is right. Tygart is talking about cycling (that sport in which the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team operated) and the doping programs revealed in cycling. How can he talk in those terms about doping programs not revealed?

If he'd meant in all sports he'd have written that:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program sports have ever seen.

A good reason for not talking about their dopng program as successful any longer is that it has been exposed. Exposed doping program = Not successful doping program.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Nope, Chewie is right. Tygart is talking about cycling (that sport in which the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team operated) and the doping programs revealed in cycling. How can he talk in those terms about doping programs not revealed?

If he'd meant in all sports he'd have written that:

The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program sports have ever seen.

A good reason for not talking about their dopng program as successful any longer is that it has been exposed. Exposed doping program = Not successful doping program.

Well as long as Tygart didn't mean the USPS operation was more successful in terms of winning things pre exposure than the East German operation then I'm happy.

I wonder if there's an English vs American English interpretation point here. How you've used "sports" is how I would use "sport" i.e. to cover all sporting activity, whereas to convey your use of "sport" I would use "the sport" or explicitly refer to the sport.

 

[eleven]

Funny too that people like MarkvW and BroDeal keep misquoting what was said, here, from the source: "...uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

Notice the first word, I highlighted it for you. All these other things you guys keep pointing out, yea, where have they been "uncovered" in the same manner in which the USADA uncovered the activities of USPS and Lance Armstrong? They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind like the fanboys are claiming. I highlighted the ACTUAL context of the quote for you. The quote "that sport" means cycling, don't know if you Einsteins picked up on that yet, so you're welcome.


http://www.usada.org/about/meet-our-team/travis-t-tygart/

are you claiming that the quote is referencing only those schemes that have been uncovered, and only in cycling?

 

[frenchfry]

Maybe USADA shouldn't have included that statement in the decision, but clearly the USPS/Discovery doping program was very sophisticated both in its execution and in the cover-up.

Meanwhile, carry on with the circular nit-picking that some of you are world class experts at.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Maybe USADA shouldn't have included that statement in the decision, but clearly the USPS/Discovery doping program was very sophisticated both in its execution and in the cover-up.

Per my comment earlier, the Reasoned Decision itself does not include the statement. It's only the press release and other informal USADA publications that do.

The USPS operation was indeed very sophisticated and successful etc. The point at issue was whether it was, without doubt, the leader in all such assessments. The move from being "one of..." to "the one, without doubt" is a big one, so the discussion is not nit-picking. It's perfectly reasonable to discuss what USADA actually meant!

This is analogous to arguments about the "Greatest Of All Time". For example, there is (almost) universal agreement that Federer is one of the greatest ever tennis players. There is much less agreement in tennis circles about whether he's the G.O.A.T.

 

[ggusta]

Maybe USADA shouldn't have included that statement in the decision, but clearly the USPS/Discovery doping program was very sophisticated both in its execution and in the cover-up.

Meanwhile, carry on with the circular nit-picking that some of you are world class experts at.

poking around this forum and the endless squabbling over miuntiae is one of my indecent pleasures, it ain't quite p0rn, but i can access it from work. hilarious stuff, where do they find the energy? (for the squabbling, not for the p0rn)

 

[juanito]

Funny too that people like MarkvW and BroDeal keep misquoting what was said, here, from the source: "...uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

Notice the first word, I highlighted it for you. All these other things you guys keep pointing out, yea, where have they been "uncovered" in the same manner in which the USADA uncovered the activities of USPS and Lance Armstrong? They didn't say that it was even the most professionalized in the history of mankind like the fanboys are claiming. I highlighted the ACTUAL context of the quote for you. The quote "that sport" means cycling, don't know if you Einsteins picked up on that yet, so you're welcome.

Read the words carefully. All of those words have meaning. Then look at the ridiculous criticism you fanboys have of them. Then look at what those words mean again. Then just go STFU, pretty please, with sugar on top.

http://www.usada.org/about/meet-our-team/travis-t-tygart/

No fanboy here but in several speaking engagements, TT has said that USPS had the most sophisticated etc etc in ALL of sports.

 

[BroDeal]

No fanboy here but in several speaking engagements, TT has said that USPS had the most sophisticated etc etc in ALL of sports.

Don't confuse the blind haters with facts. They are too busy making excuses for Tygart's lies by parsing what the meaning of is is.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

The old Soviet/Eastern Bloc doping system was vastly more sophisticated, relative to the period. And because it received full governmental support from a cabal of "closed" but fairly sophisticated industrial nations, it might be the most sophisticated that ever could be. But it primarily was technical in nature and operated with wide margins for error. They made no efforts to sidestep testing because doing so only would arouse suspicions, and they trusted in the efficacy of their masking techniques. Soviet weight lifter Vasily Alekseyev probably was the most successful (and never caught) "all PEDs, all the time" athlete ever to grace the world stage.

The Parmstrong system was as much procedural as it was pharmacological, but operated with a vastly slimmer margins for error. Riders routinely would deliberately make themselves susceptible to detection, "glowing," as Tyler Hamilton referred to it, trusting they could avoid being tested until "the glowing" was faded. Which necessitated measures such as spy networks surveilling riders' homes to warn of the approach of WADA agents for OOC controls, selecting from the believed "legal" riders to go for testing first when "the vampires" come the team's hotel so other riders could receive bags of saline to dilute their HCT concentration, training camps on Tenerife, and, of course, Motoman. All of which left precious little margin for error. And required the ongoing participation of a vast network of co-conspirators, particularly when a competition was in progress.

If it has an equal in the sports world today, it certainly is yet to be discovered.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And required the ongoing participation of a vast network of co-conspirators, particularly when a competition was in progress.

If it has an equal in the sports world today, it certainly is yet to be discovered.

Jadco comes pretty close, except nobody wants to publish the story. They are afraid of the IOC. Kazakhstan might have some interesting stories.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...All of which left precious little margin for error. And required the ongoing participation of a vast network of co-conspirators, particularly when a competition was in progress.

To the bolded, the vast network's core is the UCI itself, and USA Cycling. Something that has never been addressed.

Be careful generalizing too much.

If you were in Armstrong's camp during the UCI years, there were no doping positives. The UCI was supporting the Armstrong fraud including "reluctantly" enforcing the USADA sanctions. It was only after the Doprah interview Hein and Pat's opinion changed.

Then and now there are situations where sanctions are executed, and other situations where doping is permitted. The uncertainty of it all means it's impossible to generalize. Lots of unanswered questions about how a rider/team becomes protected by the UCI.

Otherwise, I don't know what there is to pick apart. It's a bit of PR from USADA.

 

[D-Queued]

Hmm, we have a 15 year Crown Prosecutor, come Masters in Psychology offering some pretty harsh criticism of folks around here.

Galactic nethrerlands (sic)... myoptic (sic)...

... As Tygart said, it was the biggest and most sophisticated fraud in sporting history supported by a legion of evidence.

...

So unless you live in the galactic nethrerlands, devoid of real earth news, that may not sound like enough for you, but it is enough for 99.999% of the population on Earth.

...

Any failure to see that would invite the suggestion you are myoptic.

... I doubt you could find anywhere the neat, concise, clear, unequivocal, incontrovertible set of facts and overwhelming evidence that prove the USPS case beyond any doubt. ...

Then there are some counter arguments.

You must not have read the reasoned decision. No where is it proven that USPS had the most sophisticated doping program in sport. ...

Both the scope and magnitude of FIFA corruption dwarf anything that professional cyclists could even dream of achieving.

Apparently, though, these could only support a plea of insanity.

...

You are certifiably insane if you think Tygart and USADA are exaggerating. Either that or you cannot read the plain English of the Reasoned Decision and the supporting evidence contained in the Appendices.

...

A choice between being certifiably insane or unable to read plain English.

Ouch.

Then we have new evidence presented.

1. The claim on the program's success wasn't even in the Reasoned Decition.

2. Two words: East. Germany.

Surely the good ex-counselor recalls the results from the 1976 Olympics held in his own country? An experience with sophisticated doping that apparently burned a lasting impression in fellow lawyer and fellow Canadian D!ck Pound's memories.

I have. If memory serves, the claim about the "most successful..." doping programme was not actually in the Reasoned Decision - it was only in the press release.

As to doubt, I suggest you take a look at what the East German women achieved in international athletics, rowing, swimming and speed skating during the 70s and 80s. ...

Montreal Men's and Women's Rowing: In 14 Medal Events, GDR medals in every single one with 9 Gold, 3 Silver and 2 Bronze.

Montreal Women's Swimming: 13 Medal Events, GDR medals in all but one taking 11 Gold, 6 Silver and 1 Bronze.

Throw in some Montreal Track and Field results for good measure (13 Women's events, 19 GDR medals including a sweep of the Pentathlon), and there seems to be some kind of pattern that was established.

Perhaps the measure of 'sophistication' is personal, but that kind of dominance - in multiple sports - looks pretty sophisticated. Knowing, of course, that the Stasi were monitoring and overseeing the program might also offer some support on the 'sophistication' argument.

Getting back to the ongoing debate here, though he lacks the decade-and-a-half of courtroom experience, the uppity recent law graduate pitches in.

Funny too that people ... keep misquoting what was said, here, from the source: "...uncovered the most sophisticated and professionalized doping scheme that sport had ever seen."

...

http://www.usada.org/about/meet-our-team/travis-t-tygart/

SWEET! Well that settles that argument (the Canuck may beg to differ).
There will be those who go to the instant replay to confirm. If they hear, 'that SPORT' had ever seen, I guess it's game on again.

BTW, in terms of 'riled up', Chewy, you're the best, man!

After considerable deliberation on the arguments presented, I have to agree with Alpe here.

I guess that we are still left with the 'insanity', though.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Perhaps the measure of 'sophistication' is personal, but that kind of dominance - in multiple sports - looks pretty sophisticated. Knowing, of course, that the Stasi were monitoring and overseeing the program might also offer some support on the 'sophistication' argument.

sophisticated should be defined in terms of the "sophistication of the relevant era". it is attempting to parse hairs tho, to then compare the relevant sophistication of GDR and USPS.

It Tygart were to place a premium on the State sanctioned doping, versus merely the corruption of Weisel Stapleton Knaggs and StrongArm, then GDR beats USPS.

otherwise, fools errand to work it which is more sophisticated.

or, as DQ asserts, across multiple sports.

Even with Fuentes working inside Barca and Real Madrid, I think the new doping has moved to an individual level, like with Armstrong's relationship with Ferrari, and Tiger Woods Montreal doctor Anthony Galea or whatever his name is. IMG have the network of the doctors (see for IMG any sports agent like Bill Stapleton), and then they send the athlete on to the docs to do their potions and magic

 

[MacRoadie]

Well I sure am glad we blasted the hell out of Tygart's reprehensible and deviously inappropriate use of the word "that".

I guess Lance didn't do it after all.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Well I sure am glad we blasted the hell out of Tygart's reprehensible and deviously inappropriate use of the word "that".

I guess Lance didn't do it after all.

Glad I am not the only one shaking head in disbelief.

 

[86TDFWinner]

After watching Roll I have a desire to take a long shower. He is sooo sleazy.

LOL, This. Especially since he too was on those 7 Eleven teams that were questionable for doping themselves, and his all around ******ry in relation to Wonderboy. The 7 Eleven book practically outs the entire team for doping(except Heiden, Phinney, Knickman and Hampsten i think).

 

[Gavandope]

Glad I am not the only one shaking head in disbelief.

It's more like a chuckle here. Why bother with the factual data and the fact he cloaked himself with his illness to con everybody never mind defraud the USPS.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Well I sure am glad we blasted the hell out of Tygart's reprehensible and deviously inappropriate use of the word "that".

I guess Lance didn't do it after all.

Kinda funny really....

Travis exaggerated? Yeah, so what?

Travis was bombastic? Yeah, so what?

USADA targeted LA? Yeah, so what?

Even if you come from the BroDeal school of fair play the real question is, so what?

I guess Lance didn't do it after all

Yep. We are all just being too mean I guess.

 

[D-Queued]

Kinda funny really....

Travis exaggerated? Yeah, so what?

Travis was bombastic? Yeah, so what?

USADA targeted LA? Yeah, so what?

Even if you come from the BroDeal school of fair play the real question is, so what?



Yep. We are all just being too mean I guess.

Who was bombastic?

Dave.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Who was bombastic?

Dave.

The purpose of USADA's exaggeration has been to make one team appear more culpable than others. The scapegoating is an attempt to play down the systemic nature of doping in cycling. Tygart's desire for fame and publicity has damaged the fight against doping by vilifying individuals instead of the environment the individuals are required to work in.

The witch hunt was all about Travis apparently.