Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Alpe73]

Sophistication can mean much. Like colluding with the UCI as an example.

Again, is there a credible source that confirms the well-batted-around, often alluded to in books, frequently reported in newspapers, cameoed in movies rumours ... that Armstrong would have been given a '6 month - 2 year/keep a few jerseys ban' had he initially cooperated with USADA?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It's amusing to watch people come here complaining of having to read the same old information, when people have been coming here complaining of having to read the same old information since the beginning of this sub-forum, only the content of the posts of those they complain about has progressed and developed. The irony of their posts and lives is lost on them...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Again, is there a credible source that confirms the well-batted-around, often alluded to in books, frequently reported in newspapers, cameoed in movies rumours ... that Armstrong would have been given a '6 month - 2 year/keep a few jerseys ban' had he initially cooperated with USADA?

What does the UCI have to do with the USADA as it relates to Armstrong's case?...I'd think only a fool would look at the UCI's initial reaction to the case presented by the USADA and not smell something really bad. Then again, there were fools who believed that Armstrong was clean...what utter ****ing morons, am I right? I think we can all agree that anyone who believed that Armstrong was clean after say, 2004 at the latest is an imbecile at best, am I right. Surely we can all agree on that point, no?

 

[aphronesis]

It's amusing to watch people come here complaining of having to read the same old information, when people have been coming here complaining of having to read the same old information since the beginning of this sub-forum, only the content of the posts of those they complain about has progressed and developed. The irony of their posts and lives is lost on them...

Much of it has become much more complex--at times. At others, in certain cases, the emphasis and emotion remain exactly the same. Which moots the discussion and anything to be taken away from it.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Much of it has become much more complex--at times. At others, in certain cases, the emphasis and emotion remain exactly the same. Which moots the discussion and anything to be taken away from it.

I don't post here much anymore, and while this thread seems to always be on the front page, there seems little new content other than MarkvW's continuing quest to be as wrong about everything as a human can possibly be, and BroDeal's new-found fanboyism...but somebody's gotta counter that...

Either way, I don't post on this thread much because it is getting a little stale, but lets not blame just one side for that. The arguments from the pro-Armstrong camp have made even less of a change than the arguments of those they oppose.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I do have to say that I found new vigor in the Albasini racism thread...love a new, sexy topic to get all riled up on.

This thread tastes like old crackers sometimes, that I'll give you.

 

[MarkvW]

It is one thing to throw out names. It is another to provide the specifics of the doping programs that compare the "sophistication, professionalism and success" of the USPS doping program in order to compare it to others and thus not give it the epithet "most" Throwing out names does not do that. For example Don King has been a scoundrel, but I am not aware of his running a doping program.

I recognize there have been other sophisticated and successful doping programs or scandals, but I doubt you could find anywhere the neat, concise, clear, unequivocal, incontrovertible set of facts and overwhelming evidence that prove the USPS case beyond any doubt. That is the point Tygart was getting at when he made his statement.

For example in the Fuentes case there was a lot of equivocal evidence and they did not pursue against him issues relating to fraud, false pretences and misrepresentation and they had to settle going after him for endangering public health. These offenses are regulatory offences much easier to prove.

Keep in mind Tygart has seen and read about a lot of doping cases. That is a huge part of his job. He also routinely keeps current on the decisions and the law of not just the USADA cases, but also the other NADA arbitration decisions and of course the case law of CAS.

Having read the Reasoned Decision myself and knowing what I do about Tygart's knowledge of doping cases, I will happily accept Tygart's informed opinion.

Both the scope and magnitude of FIFA corruption dwarf anything that professional cyclists could even dream of achieving.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I do have to say that I found new vigor in the Albasini racism thread...love a new, sexy topic to get all riled up on.

This thread tastes like old crackers sometimes, that I'll give you.

Crackers are good for nausea..
which is a good thing

 

[MonkeyFace]

It's probably the most sophisticated and successful doping program I've ever heard of. I haven't heared of everything, but I can't think of one that would rival it right now. Seven years of pure success and never getting actually caught with a positive (until it was revealed that he actually was caught) is pretty good. The program made use of the drugs, the payoffs, the intimidation, the collusion, the motoman. Come on, that's pretty good stuff. All Balco did was make some good drugs and tell people how to use them and beat the tests. Barry Bonds didn't even have a motoman.

Sophisticated and successful. Hardly. He paid off the UCI to sweep positives under the rug and tested positive for cortisone in 1999. If you want to talk about successful programs, how about Mapei and Quickstep? Nothing out of those teams. Working with Ferrari, Chris Carmicheal as personal coach, using activgen, every decent rider confessing or getting busted, yeah they did a masterful job staying under the radar. If you want to talk about someone knowing how to stay under the radar, talk about Kloden. That guy has ninja doping skills.

 

[Oldman]

Both the scope and magnitude of FIFA corruption dwarf anything that professional cyclists could even dream of achieving.

You're mixing institutional, time embraced corruption with LA. If one soccer player or team could control the entire league for 7 years and stifle all criticism without bribing every other player in the game; create a narrative around curing a horrible disease with that player as the iconic representative then you'd be talking about the same thing.
The IOC sets the standard for that type of corruption and they just take a cut of what happens. That's serious manipulation.

 

[MarkvW]

You're mixing institutional, time embraced corruption with LA. If one soccer player or team could control the entire league for 7 years and stifle all criticism without bribing every other player in the game; create a narrative around curing a horrible disease with that player as the iconic representative then you'd be talking about the same thing.
The IOC sets the standard for that type of corruption and they just take a cut of what happens. That's serious manipulation.

Lance didn't control the entire league. Lance focused on and controlled one race and one race only. Indeed that was one of the primary criticisms of his racing back before the doping dwarfed it. And when it comes to doping, Lance just did what the other pros did, only he did it much more effectively.

Oh yeah, and Lance is the worstest and evilest person on the planet. But come on.... bike race cheating? One of the dinkiest sports of all.

Now lets talk team doping in the NFL in the 1970s (and today for that matter).... Painkiller abuse by NFL teams is outrageous.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

You mis-understand... I was referring to Skippy, err Aphro.

Oops - Sorry.

 

[Bannockburn]

Bob Roll, spewing the talking points

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7r-eucIqyo&list=UUjNL5b6a3l8npfMNL9mOuPg

Amusing that after watching that the next youtube video that kicked up and autoplayed was titled "How to cut down a tree."

 

[RobbieCanuck]

You must not have read the reasoned decision. No where is it proven that USPS had the most sophisticated doping program in sport. That was rhetoric, grandstanding by USADA to get its name in the news. USPS' program was nothing compared to BALCO manufacturing its own undetectable steroids, which USADA was fully aware of because it had a hand in that investigation. In fact, USPS' program was not even the most sophisticated program of the teams that various witnesses rode for. That honor would probably go to Liberty Seguros or even T-Mobile. Those teams did not have riders storing blood in their closets. They used medical professionals.

What Landis proved, contrary to what USADA would have people believe, is that winning the Tour does not require a sophisticated program. All that is needed is blood transfusions and a little anabolics plus someone like Allen Lim to transport a blood bag.

The purpose of USADA's exaggeration has been to make one team appear more culpable than others. The scapegoating is an attempt to play down the systemic nature of doping in cycling. Tygart's desire for fame and publicity has damaged the fight against doping by vilifying individuals instead of the environment the individuals are required to work in. USADA's distortion of the facts worked so well with Armstrong that Tygart used the same ploy with A-Rod, claiming A-Rod's program was the most potent doping program they had ever seen. What was A-Rod using? Testosterone and a few peptides.

Show me another cycling team that EVER that won 7 TDF titles, because of a systematic conspiracy of doping. The degree of organization, advice from Ferrari, the acquiring of the drugs, the taking of the drugs, the secrecy, the scope of the conspiracy and keeping the program active for 7 years and the ability to beat the tests was second to none.

You are certifiably insane if you think Tygart and USADA are exaggerating. Either that or you cannot read the plain English of the Reasoned Decision and the supporting evidence contained in the Appendices.

It is obvious you have some irrational bias or prejudice against USADA and Tygart. But your allegation of distortion, rhetoric and vilification by them is the most absurd comment I have ever seen in Cycling News. When you describe proven facts as rhetoric, distortion and vilification these comments are quite frankly laughable in the face of the evidence.

I have just finished watching Stop at Nothing, and it chronicles the scope of the conspiracy, Armstrong's serial lying, and his extraordinary attempts to intimidate people, to let down cancer victims, harass and bully. The people interviewed in that documentary are truthful and honest. The evidence is crystal clear Lance was in charge of the team, who got fired if they didn't dope (Andreu) and who got hired if they did (Landis) and the doping program generally.

Greg Lemond called it the greatest fraud in the history of sport. When it comes to your nonsensical comments and Lemond's opinion, I for one will side with Greg.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Stop at Nothing Documentary

http://www.npo.nl/3doc/25-07-2014/VPWON_1203538

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[buckle]

Bob Roll, spewing the talking points

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7r-eucIqyo&list=UUjNL5b6a3l8npfMNL9mOuPg

Funny how different his talking points were about Ricco

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh14b3_riccardo-ricco-expelled-from-the-08-tour-de-france_sport


http://www.bicycle.net/2008/tour-de-france-ricco-test-positive-video-by-versus

Bob Roll makes the interesting point that the race is effectively finished. Given the emergence of SKY and their program since 2008, the TDF acts as nothing more than an intriguing window on the collapse of Western Civilaztion. It is to the credit of Hitch and the gang that the Clinic has acquired front row seats to the main event!

 

[Oldman]

Lance didn't control the entire league. Lance focused on and controlled one race and one race only. Indeed that was one of the primary criticisms of his racing back before the doping dwarfed it. And when it comes to doping, Lance just did what the other pros did, only he did it much more effectively.

Oh yeah, and Lance is the worstest and evilest person on the planet. But come on.... bike race cheating? One of the dinkiest sports of all.

Now lets talk team doping in the NFL in the 1970s (and today for that matter).... Painkiller abuse by NFL teams is outrageous.

You're incorrect on several points:
1)Lance controlled the Show. That race provided all the currency in dollars and social influence necessary. That's the Superbowl and World Cup final for that sport. It may be dinky but you have to compare his earnings to a select few in any other sport.
2)NFL doping-business just like soccer. In fact; where do you think the Premier League and ATP got the idea? From cricket?
3)Painkiller abuse. Players must shoulder most of the blame because they were willing to take them to play and still do so. The NFL is now "seriously" taking this on. DEA is also now looking at Black Market HGH use on the high school level sports. Why? Because most of it is crap with a legitimate drug company's name on it. Part of Interpol's participation in the whole Euro to cycling investigation is more about bad drugs from China and Montenegro than cycling.

The social issues are a separate topic IMO.

 

[thehog]

David Walsh speaking at a RSA Conference last week:

http://youtu.be/hTQ2OMp3tr4
http://youtu.be/cU0yyuRr8xU

David speaking to a packed house think I can see at least 3 people in the audience.

Does he think he's Tony Robbins or something?

 

[MarkvW]

You're incorrect on several points:
1)Lance controlled the Show. That race provided all the currency in dollars and social influence necessary. That's the Superbowl and World Cup final for that sport. It may be dinky but you have to compare his earnings to a select few in any other sport.
2)NFL doping-business just like soccer. In fact; where do you think the Premier League and ATP got the idea? From cricket?
3)Painkiller abuse. Players must shoulder most of the blame because they were willing to take them to play and still do so. The NFL is now "seriously" taking this on. DEA is also now looking at Black Market HGH use on the high school level sports. Why? Because most of it is crap with a legitimate drug company's name on it. Part of Interpol's participation in the whole Euro to cycling investigation is more about bad drugs from China and Montenegro than cycling.

The social issues are a separate topic IMO.

Sure the TdF is the biggest show in cycling, but cycling itself is peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

Organized team doping in American football, at least, well predates Lance Armstrong--and it has always been much bigger.

Your third point is based on a flawed assumption. Painkiller abuse is a team problem in the NFL. It's not isolated abuse--it's team abuse.

 

[frenchfry]

Bob Roll makes the interesting point that the race is effectively finished. Given the emergence of SKY and their program since 2008, the TDF acts as nothing more than an intriguing window on the collapse of Western Civilaztion. It is to the credit of Hitch and the gang that the Clinic has acquired front row seats to the main event!

After watching Roll I have a desire to take a long shower. He is sooo sleazy.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Have you read the Reasoned Decision? I assume you have. Is there any doubt? If you are a reasonable person and I assume you are - there is none.

I have. If memory serves, the claim about the "most successful..." doping programme was not actually in the Reasoned Decision - it was only in the press release.

As to doubt, I suggest you take a look at what the East German women achieved in international athletics, rowing, swimming and speed skating during the 70s and 80s. Whilst it's hard to compare different sports, the sheer volume and duration of the their achievements on the back of the state sponsored doping programme must surely cast doubt on USADA's claim that the USPS operation was the most successful doping programme in the history of sport.

Maybe the USPS operation was more successful that the East German operation, but it's not as clear cut as USADA would like us to believe.

 

[Berzin]

After watching Roll I have a desire to take a long shower. He is sooo sleazy.

What is up with those way-to-tight polo shirts? It makes him look like an aging squid with his long, white arms dangling all over the commentary desk.

 

[Alpe73]

Maybe the USPS operation was more successful that the East German operation, but it's not as clear cut as USADA would like us to believe.

For a country with only (approx) 18 million people at the time, their medal count in Montreal in '76 (2nd only to the Soviets and ahead of the Americans in 3rd), their program was amazingly successful. Sophisticated? C'mon!

 

[Night Rider]

Show me another cycling team that EVER that won 7 TDF titles, because of a systematic conspiracy of doping.

Too easy .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movistar_Team

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

For a country with only (approx) 18 million people at the time, their medal count in Montreal in '76 (2nd only to the Soviets and ahead of the Americans in 3rd), their program was amazingly successful. Sophisticated? C'mon!

I make no claims for East German sophistication. Only their success!