Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta. Instead of honestly dealing with the predictable outcome of an undetectable drug with huge performance gains being injected into a sport with more than a hundred years of rampant drug use, she and the industry around pro cycling want to simplify the issue by blaming a handful of people. Fixing a systemic problem is intractable. Blaming a few scapegoats is easy, and the public likes easy solutions to complex problems. Those in the industry use this approach because it is in their financial interest to bury the problem, to pretend it ended with Armstrong, and to tread lightly when it comes to what all the other riders were doing at the time. Betsy does it because her whole life, just like her Facebook page, is about prosecuting her grudge against Lance.

She never cared about doping in cycling. Doping is just a convenient cudgel for her to use in her feud. What makes it more sickening is her assuming the role of steadfast truthseeker even as she lies to the public by manipulating the story to put more blame on Armstrong. This focused blame is an impediment to handling the doping problem. It has become the new omerta. Instead of zipping their lips, people can now blame everything on a notable whipping boy.

In the countless interviews, which she seeks out from a stable of pliant journalists, she never deals with the fairness of holding a few responsible when doping was the norm not the exception. She never mentionas the limited utlity of such an approach. Instead she has constructed a false narrative of Lance being unique and responsible for the whole sport. Just the other week she was pushing her usual lie with a tale of the sport being ready to clean itself up after Festina but Lance's 1999 Tour win dragging everyone back to the needle. She never mentioned that just a month and a half earlier Pantani was shooting up the climbs at the Giro and a month and a half earlier than that Franke Vandenbroucke was putting the wood to everyone at LBL. Year after year it has been a constant drumbeat of blaming one person for doping that stretches back to the late 1800s.

The fabulous story she has been pushing on the public is predicated on a lie. In her self-aggrandizing fable she was minding her own business until the SCA case and Lance hates her for refusing to lie in a deposition. In fact she had been engaged in a whispering campaign for years, online and offline. She sought out journalists, and that was one of the reasons the SCA case happened in the first place. The timeline betrays her deception.

The root of the feud is money. It is why she is constantly harping on about the sizes of other riders' houses and their gran fondos. She suffered under the crazy delusion that in an era of near universal blood vector doping Frankie could stop and still be a useful domestique. At the same time she concocted a plan to jack Frankie's salary by feigning an offer from another team. In short, she wanted Frankie to get more money while being less useful. Never a great plan for getting a pay rise. Instead of recognizing pro cyclists doping is like coal miners getting dirty, she constructed an elaborate fraud that had Lance forcing others to dope. She is the source of that lie. Tygart took it and ran with it. Other Postal riders found Tygart was more than willing to allow them to evade responsiblity for their own decisions if they blamed those he had targeted.

She uses this false narrative to manipulate the public and has been doing so for years. This is why, even though Frankie was strung out on EPO for years, she and Frankie cannot admit to his corticosteroid use at Motorola before 1995. In her mind, the monkey Frankie carried around on his back long before Lance won the Tour is not Franke's fault. Frankie didn't dope for himself; he doped for Lance! Admitting that Frankie was using the usual corticosteroids that were handed out at Motorola, just like they were standard at other teams, would be taking the blame off Lance Armstrong, and that is something that is not in Betsy's playbook. With her vindictiveness more and more evident since Armstrong's downfall, you can bet her husband is well aware of what would be in store for him if he contradicted her talking points.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta.

Lance, it's done. Really. The die is cast and Lance is the bad guy.

I cannot be bothered to tear the rest of that nonsense down.

FWIW, I don't think you are Lance though. The sentences are too well-formed.

Let's go back into history for why the Andreu's get a free pass.
-Frankie admits to doping going against both the UCI and USAC to do what was right at great personal and professional cost.
-Betsy does not cave to enormous pressure from Armstrong to lie to make the SCA case go away.

Both take enormous courage, the likes of which few in the sport seem to possess.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Who are the Andreus if they're not the victims of Lance Armstrong?

Armstrong=bad:.Andreus=good?

Frankie doping throughout the majority of his career sounds about right.

With all the hatred that Armstrong obviously has for the Andreau's and their supposed betrayal, why would he withhold such damning info about Frankie until now? Wouldn't it have been in his best interests to raise this issue about Frankie's "career long doping" much earlier with the purpose of putting his credibility in question?

Don't go throwing logic into the mix.

Clearly Lance, and his 432 lawyers, didn't feel evidence that would raise questions regarding Frankie's credibility, especially something as insignificant and pedestrian as "career-long doping" would be of any use to them at any point during the last 10 years.

No, please do throw logic in the mix.

If Armstrong outs Andreu he outs himself.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

hmmm... monkeymouth says something about Frankie (regardless of circumstance)... cue SOP for journos; ring Betsy for comment...
Why is it that no one asks Frankie?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta.

Lance, it's done. Really. The die is cast and Lance is the bad guy.

I cannot be bothered to tear the rest of that nonsense down.

FWIW, I don't think you are Lance though. The sentences are too well-formed.

Let's go back into history for why the Andreu's get a free pass.
-Frankie admits to doping going against both the UCI and USAC to do what was right at great personal and professional cost.
-Betsy does not cave to enormous pressure from Armstrong to lie to make the SCA case go away.

Both take enormous courage, the likes of which few in the sport seem to possess.

More to the point, if Frankie was juicing his whole career including the pre-USPS phase then the whole "bullying", "most sophisticated", "orchestrated", starts to lose its lustre.

What you're left with is a bunch guys on a cycling team doping. Just like every other team in those races.

I don't disagree on the courage and standing up to Lance but don't let all that standing up get in the way of Frankie standing up himself and telling the truth.

As for SCA, Frankie certainly didn't admit to the fullness of his doping during that hearing.

Bottom line was FA scared of Lance Armstrong or his wife?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

Betsy: "I don't know what drives Lance's obsession with us."

If you poke a pig with a stick, you can hardly be suprised if it turns on you....

Why the fancy compliments for Armstrong?

Andreu's are entitled to feel aggrieved and angry from treatment meted out by Armstrong's bullying.

That the guy is still lying obviously hurts. I admire Betsy for sticking to her guns and not rolling over just because the guy got busted. Just because Armstrong is acting like snake without a venom, don't mean he still cant try to bite.

It is hard to understand why reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. It is patently obvious Armstrong is a serial liar, obsessed with vengeance, and prepared to say anything to satisfy his egomania. The evidence that Armstrong is a psychopath becomes more evident with every interview he gives and yet time after time American reporters sit gob smacked at his feet as though Armstrong has something significant to say. Enough already!

Armstrong wasn't speaking to reporters but the statements were made under oath. He was asked a question, he responded.

I think it's well established the 2012 USADA affidavits are more than odd. Doping stopped collectively in 2006?!

How odd we'll all soon enough find out.

I didn't say Armstrong was talking to reporters I said reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. Come on Hog, you are missing the substance of what I was saying!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re:

IMO, Adrue in the wrong here, they have tried to harm Lance image beyond reason, Yes he's nasty but he's still human, has feelings. I'm sure him seeing being permanently villified by people who did the same agers and he wants vengence, they may regret going after him and destroying him in the press. Lance is a fighter and will not give up till dead.

I think you have the cart before the horse. Armstrong is a serial liar and fraud. He did this to himself without any help from the Andreus. All the Andreus want is for Armstrong to tell the truth and not exaggerate about Frankie's drug use in an obvious attempt to smear Frankie. A psychopath has no feelings, has no empathy, has no conscience about the harm he does to people - that fits Armstrong. Lance is like Don Quioxte, he is tilting at windmills that are not there, and are only the creation of his very imaginative mind.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Betsy: "I don't know what drives Lance's obsession with us."

If you poke a pig with a stick, you can hardly be suprised if it turns on you....

Why the fancy compliments for Armstrong?

Andreu's are entitled to feel aggrieved and angry from treatment meted out by Armstrong's bullying.

That the guy is still lying obviously hurts. I admire Betsy for sticking to her guns and not rolling over just because the guy got busted. Just because Armstrong is acting like snake without a venom, don't mean he still cant try to bite.

It is hard to understand why reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. It is patently obvious Armstrong is a serial liar, obsessed with vengeance, and prepared to say anything to satisfy his egomania. The evidence that Armstrong is a psychopath becomes more evident with every interview he gives and yet time after time American reporters sit gob smacked at his feet as though Armstrong has something significant to say. Enough already!

Armstrong wasn't speaking to reporters but the statements were made under oath. He was asked a question, he responded.

I think it's well established the 2012 USADA affidavits are more than odd. Doping stopped collectively in 2006?!

How odd we'll all soon enough find out.

I didn't say Armstrong was talking to reporters I said reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. Come on Hog, you are missing the substance of what I was saying!

No, the reporter was reprinting the statements from the deposition. A judge is yet to substantiate the statements as true or as not true.

The reporter(s) at this point don't know if what was said was true or not. Nor do you.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Armstrong is scum and is stil lying and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. She will never get him to be honest, why not move on and forget him?

I am of this opinion, why not move on, but Armstrong will keep telling lies and the Andreu's feel they need to call him out on his lies. Their choice and i respect it. Yep Armstrong is not going to change and will continue with his lies so why bother, but then why let him away with it? Maybe if he loses the Qui Tam case they will let go because Armstrong just might have to get a job and be busy for a while....

X3. As I've said numerous times in the past about Wonderboy: he can't "move on", he just cannot help himself. He's an attention whore, and a narcissist.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta.

Lance, it's done. Really. The die is cast and Lance is the bad guy.

I cannot be bothered to tear the rest of that nonsense down.

FWIW, I don't think you are Lance though. The sentences are too well-formed.

Let's go back into history for why the Andreu's get a free pass.
-Frankie admits to doping going against both the UCI and USAC to do what was right at great personal and professional cost.
-Betsy does not cave to enormous pressure from Armstrong to lie to make the SCA case go away.

Both take enormous courage, the likes of which few in the sport seem to possess.

This. Plus, someone has to continue running Andreu Strategies

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

IMO, Adrue in the wrong here, they have tried to harm Lance image beyond reason, Yes he's nasty but he's still human, has feelings. I'm sure him seeing being permanently villified by people who did the same agers and he wants vengence, they may regret going after him and destroying him in the press. Lance is a fighter and will not give up till dead.

I think you have the cart before the horse. Armstrong is a serial liar and fraud. He did this to himself without any help from the Andreus. All the Andreus want is for Armstrong to tell the truth and not exaggerate about Frankie's drug use in an obvious attempt to smear Frankie. A psychopath has no feelings, has no empathy, has no conscience about the harm he does to people - that fits Armstrong. Lance is like Don Quioxte, he is tilting at windmills that are not there, and are only the creation of his very imaginative mind.

Ding Ding Ding!!!

 

[del1962]

Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta. Instead of honestly dealing with the predictable outcome of an undetectable drug with huge performance gains being injected into a sport with more than a hundred years of rampant drug use, she and the industry around pro cycling want to simplify the issue by blaming a handful of people. Fixing a systemic problem is intractable. Blaming a few scapegoats is easy, and the public likes easy solutions to complex problems. Those in the industry use this approach because it is in their financial interest to bury the problem, to pretend it ended with Armstrong, and to tread lightly when it comes to what all the other riders were doing at the time. Betsy does it because her whole life, just like her Facebook page, is about prosecuting her grudge against Lance.

She never cared about doping in cycling. Doping is just a convenient cudgel for her to use in her feud. What makes it more sickening is her assuming the role of steadfast truthseeker even as she lies to the public by manipulating the story to put more blame on Armstrong. This focused blame is an impediment to handling the doping problem. It has become the new omerta. Instead of zipping their lips, people can now blame everything on a notable whipping boy.

In the countless interviews, which she seeks out from a stable of pliant journalists, she never deals with the fairness of holding a few responsible when doping was the norm not the exception. She never mentionas the limited utlity of such an approach. Instead she has constructed a false narrative of Lance being unique and responsible for the whole sport. Just the other week she was pushing her usual lie with a tale of the sport being ready to clean itself up after Festina but Lance's 1999 Tour win dragging everyone back to the needle. She never mentioned that just a month and a half earlier Pantani was shooting up the climbs at the Giro and a month and a half earlier than that Franke Vandenbroucke was putting the wood to everyone at LBL. Year after year it has been a constant drumbeat of blaming one person for doping that stretches back to the late 1800s.

The fabulous story she has been pushing on the public is predicated on a lie. In her self-aggrandizing fable she was minding her own business until the SCA case and Lance hates her for refusing to lie in a deposition. In fact she had been engaged in a whispering campaign for years, online and offline. She sought out journalists, and that was one of the reasons the SCA case happened in the first place. The timeline betrays her deception.

The root of the feud is money. It is why she is constantly harping on about the sizes of other riders' houses and their gran fondos. She suffered under the crazy delusion that in an era of near universal blood vector doping Frankie could stop and still be a useful domestique. At the same time she concocted a plan to jack Frankie's salary by feigning an offer from another team. In short, she wanted Frankie to get more money while being less useful. Never a great plan for getting a pay rise. Instead of recognizing pro cyclists doping is like coal miners getting dirty, she constructed an elaborate fraud that had Lance forcing others to dope. She is the source of that lie. Tygart took it and ran with it. Other Postal riders found Tygart was more than willing to allow them to evade responsiblity for their own decisions if they blamed those he had targeted.

She uses this false narrative to manipulate the public and has been doing so for years. This is why, even though Frankie was strung out on EPO for years, she and Frankie cannot admit to his corticosteroid use at Motorola before 1995. In her mind, the monkey Frankie carried around on his back long before Lance won the Tour is not Franke's fault. Frankie didn't dope for himself; he doped for Lance! Admitting that Frankie was using the usual corticosteroids that were handed out at Motorola, just like they were standard at other teams, would be taking the blame off Lance Armstrong, and that is something that is not in Betsy's playbook. With her vindictiveness more and more evident since Armstrong's downfall, you can bet her husband is well aware of what would be in store for him if he contradicted her talking points.

This post is full of lies, insinuations and half truths,

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

This post is full of lies, insinuations and half truths,

Everything written there is true. Betsy's toadies bought into the mythology she created for herself and are so blinded by their hatred of Lance they cannot see her for what she is. They need quaint fairy tales of good versus evil, a new era, and Team Sky.

 

[jens_attacks]

in another universe, betsy and lance would be lovers

what a cruel world we live in

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

Robbie - I didn't say Armstrong was talking to reporters I said reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. Come on Hog, you are missing the substance of what I was saying![/quote]

Hog - No, the reporter was reprinting the statements from the deposition. A judge is yet to substantiate the statements as true or as not true.

The reporter(s) at this point don't know if what was said was true or not. Nor do you.[/quote]


Robbie's response

I have read every affidavit in the USADA case. One of the conditions for the affiants was in order to receive a lesser ban they had to provide an affidavit about the truth of their own drug use. This is a powerful motivator to tell the truth in an affidavit.

Furthermore to lie in an affidavit is perjury. Not one of those riders was going to risk adding perjury to receiving a ban. All of the affidavits have the ring of truth. Many of the affidavits corroborate each other in terms of what went on with LA and USPS.

USADA is full of trained lawyers, not the least of whom is Travis Tygart. Collectively, USADA was the judge of the validity and truthfulness of each of these affidavits and they found the affidavits clearly substantiated the fact Armstrong and USPS were seriously organized serial dopers. I accept the truth of those affidavits wholeheartedly. For you to suggest a "judge" or a reporter or you or me cannot substantiate the truth of the contents of the affidavits is absurd!

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

This post is full of lies, insinuations and half truths,

Everything written there is true. Betsy's toadies bought into the mythology she created for herself and are so blinded by their hatred of Lance they cannot see her for what she is. They need quaint fairy tales of good versus evil, a new era, and Team Sky.

Not.

del1962 was correct.

How did we get back to 'smear Betsy' in the Lance thread?

The discrediting campaign is as obvious as if it were being mounted by Lance himself.

Dave.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta. Instead of honestly dealing with the predictable outcome of an undetectable drug with huge performance gains being injected into a sport with more than a hundred years of rampant drug use, she and the industry around pro cycling want to simplify the issue by blaming a handful of people. Fixing a systemic problem is intractable. Blaming a few scapegoats is easy, and the public likes easy solutions to complex problems. Those in the industry use this approach because it is in their financial interest to bury the problem, to pretend it ended with Armstrong, and to tread lightly when it comes to what all the other riders were doing at the time. Betsy does it because her whole life, just like her Facebook page, is about prosecuting her grudge against Lance.

She never cared about doping in cycling. Doping is just a convenient cudgel for her to use in her feud. What makes it more sickening is her assuming the role of steadfast truthseeker even as she lies to the public by manipulating the story to put more blame on Armstrong. This focused blame is an impediment to handling the doping problem. It has become the new omerta. Instead of zipping their lips, people can now blame everything on a notable whipping boy.

In the countless interviews, which she seeks out from a stable of pliant journalists, she never deals with the fairness of holding a few responsible when doping was the norm not the exception. She never mentionas the limited utlity of such an approach. Instead she has constructed a false narrative of Lance being unique and responsible for the whole sport. Just the other week she was pushing her usual lie with a tale of the sport being ready to clean itself up after Festina but Lance's 1999 Tour win dragging everyone back to the needle. She never mentioned that just a month and a half earlier Pantani was shooting up the climbs at the Giro and a month and a half earlier than that Franke Vandenbroucke was putting the wood to everyone at LBL. Year after year it has been a constant drumbeat of blaming one person for doping that stretches back to the late 1800s.

The fabulous story she has been pushing on the public is predicated on a lie. In her self-aggrandizing fable she was minding her own business until the SCA case and Lance hates her for refusing to lie in a deposition. In fact she had been engaged in a whispering campaign for years, online and offline. She sought out journalists, and that was one of the reasons the SCA case happened in the first place. The timeline betrays her deception.

The root of the feud is money. It is why she is constantly harping on about the sizes of other riders' houses and their gran fondos. She suffered under the crazy delusion that in an era of near universal blood vector doping Frankie could stop and still be a useful domestique. At the same time she concocted a plan to jack Frankie's salary by feigning an offer from another team. In short, she wanted Frankie to get more money while being less useful. Never a great plan for getting a pay rise. Instead of recognizing pro cyclists doping is like coal miners getting dirty, she constructed an elaborate fraud that had Lance forcing others to dope. She is the source of that lie. Tygart took it and ran with it. Other Postal riders found Tygart was more than willing to allow them to evade responsiblity for their own decisions if they blamed those he had targeted.

She uses this false narrative to manipulate the public and has been doing so for years. This is why, even though Frankie was strung out on EPO for years, she and Frankie cannot admit to his corticosteroid use at Motorola before 1995. In her mind, the monkey Frankie carried around on his back long before Lance won the Tour is not Franke's fault. Frankie didn't dope for himself; he doped for Lance! Admitting that Frankie was using the usual corticosteroids that were handed out at Motorola, just like they were standard at other teams, would be taking the blame off Lance Armstrong, and that is something that is not in Betsy's playbook. With her vindictiveness more and more evident since Armstrong's downfall, you can bet her husband is well aware of what would be in store for him if he contradicted her talking points.

This post is full of lies, insinuations and half truths,

Machiavelli, your post is full of absurdities.

1. Betsy and the "industry" do not have some conspiracy agreement to blame doping on a few. Betsy has stated publicly that doping was rampant in cycling.

2. Betsy's issue is not rampant doping in cycling but Armstrong's pathetic attempt to call her a liar about what she overheard in a hospital. If someone like Armstrong called me a liar when I knew I was not lying I would be pretty pissed too. By the way it is also called defamation, something Armstrong is pretty good at.

3. Armstrong continues to lie. All Betsy is doing is pointing that out.

4. Betsy was strongly against doping in cycling and made it clear to Frankie that if he doped she would not marry him. Frankie lied to Betsy that he was not doping so they got married. I am sure Betsy felt let down by Frankie when he came clean but obviously they worked through that issue and remain together

5. Betsy has never said Lance was solely responsible for doping in cycling. However Armstrong was responsible for intentionally creating the most sophisticated doping program for any one cycling team in history (although some would argue with some validity the doping programs of other teams was sophisticated too) USADA found this to be true based on substantial, clear and convincing evidence. This substantiates Betsy's criticism of LA.

The rest of your post is a fairy-tale and a jumbled mishmash of your imagination. It is an incoherent diatribe, full of illogical reasoning, contradictory bunk, intellectually dishonest and a crude and banal farrago of nonsense.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Robbie - I didn't say Armstrong was talking to reporters I said reporters continue to report Armstrong's lies. Come on Hog, you are missing the substance of what I was saying!

Hog - No, the reporter was reprinting the statements from the deposition. A judge is yet to substantiate the statements as true or as not true.

The reporter(s) at this point don't know if what was said was true or not. Nor do you.
Robbie's response

I have read every affidavit in the USADA case. One of the conditions for the affiants was in order to receive a lesser ban they had to provide an affidavit about the truth of their own drug use. This is a powerful motivator to tell the truth in an affidavit.

Furthermore to lie in an affidavit is perjury. Not one of those riders was going to risk adding perjury to receiving a ban. All of the affidavits have the ring of truth. Many of the affidavits corroborate each other in terms of what went on with LA and USPS.

USADA is full of trained lawyers, not the least of whom is Travis Tygart. Collectively, USADA was the judge of the validity and truthfulness of each of these affidavits and they found the affidavits clearly substantiated the fact Armstrong and USPS were seriously organized serial dopers. I accept the truth of those affidavits wholeheartedly. For you to suggest a "judge" or a reporter or you or me cannot substantiate the truth of the contents of the affidavits is absurd!

USADA is full of trained lawyers? Ummmm ok, does that mean lawyers don’t lie or only tell part of the story? Too funny.

As you are aware from the USADA affidavits, doping stopped collectively on a magical date of 2006, including TommyD!

Affidavits are simply a statement from a individual, whether they are truthful or not is another story. The threat of perjury may deter some from lying in an affidavits others it may not.

More to the point, the USADA affidavits were primarily about USPS. FA was under no real obligation to talk about his doping pre-USPS as a junior with cortisone or at Cofdis. Leaving those details out does not constitute lying its simply an omission.

The truthfulness of the affidavits can be later “tested” when the Federal Case goes further along and more documents and disclosures are released.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Very difficult to get this straight because you got all the dirty dozen going bat crazy over damilliomacenvallians post. Or how someone called Lance a pig but that was interpreted to be them calling Betsy a pig.

The article I read was or is - a transcript from "recent testimony" reveals that Lance Armstrong under oath said Frankie Andreu was on PED's the majority of his career. THE USATODAY multi colored fish wrap contacted Frankie and questioned him on the basis of that recent testimony. Frankie denied it.

I don't get what reading the transcripts from the USADA case has to do with this - nor do I understand how anyone can say/posts it is Lance going to the media. I think some of the dirty dozen have a reading and comprehension problem.

Anyhow it would be interesting to know the full scope of all those USPS riders who where fully into the game once they arrived in the European peloton. Not like there would be anyone stupid enough to believe that before Lance joined the team they were not doing PED's. Even Tyler mentions doping pre Lance on a team wide basis.

Then after all of that reading --- this thread you got a couple of members who claim this damionomcinvallley is Lance. I thought that was a total NO go zone but obviously they were just baiting this member DM into getting banned, because that is the SOP in this sand box.

Seriously if the dirty dozen found out today that all the USPS members from inception were "doping the majority of their career's" would you be shocked? HOW can you answer that question with anything other than NO.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

if the dirty dozen found out today that all the USPS members from inception were "doping the majority of their career's" would you be shocked?

One part of the problem here is the age old issue of what is meant when you say doping? For a lot of people - including the most trenchant in their criticism of LA - it doesn't really include things like cortisone (apart from that test) and really only includes oxygen vector doping. Yet most all that has been written abt this suggests that - even at Motorola - cortisone was being given out like candy.

 

[Irondan]

Some of these comments are starting to get rather loose with the facts that were posted beforehand.

Lets keep this thread on topic and impersonal please.

 

[MarkvW]

Lance Armstrong is Betsy Andreu's ticket out of obscurity. She has marketed the Lance Armstrong drama for several years now. Good for her. It's not like she's saying anything bad.

She helps Lance by keeping Lance's name in the media. The worst fate for Lance is to be forgotten--far worse than being merely reviled. After all, Lance has his redemption marketing campaign to plan!

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

Very difficult to get this straight because you got all the dirty dozen going bat crazy over damilliomacenvallians post. Or how someone called Lance a pig but that was interpreted to be them calling Betsy a pig.

The article I read was or is - a transcript from "recent testimony" reveals that Lance Armstrong under oath said Frankie Andreu was on PED's the majority of his career. THE USATODAY multi colored fish wrap contacted Frankie and questioned him on the basis of that recent testimony. Frankie denied it.

I don't get what reading the transcripts from the USADA case has to do with this - nor do I understand how anyone can say/posts it is Lance going to the media. I think some of the dirty dozen have a reading and comprehension problem.

Anyhow it would be interesting to know the full scope of all those USPS riders who where fully into the game once they arrived in the European peloton. Not like there would be anyone stupid enough to believe that before Lance joined the team they were not doing PED's. Even Tyler mentions doping pre Lance on a team wide basis.

Then after all of that reading --- this thread you got a couple of members who claim this damionomcinvallley is Lance. I thought that was a total NO go zone but obviously they were just baiting this member DM into getting banned, because that is the SOP in this sand box.

Seriously if the dirty dozen found out today that all the USPS members from inception were "doping the majority of their career's" would you be shocked? HOW can you answer that question with anything other than NO.

Glenn, sorry, but you are whitewashing.

I, for one, am not accusing damianomcinvalley of being anyone.

That his nonsense reads like a string of Armstrong lies does not suggest that he/she is Lance, or that there has been any communication between him/her and Lance.

My statement merely provides a sense of the lies being uttered.

Nor am I looking for damanomcinvalley to be banned.

However !!!

However, these are lies.

They also sure look like (1) a whole bunch of ad hominems that are (2) being directed at a fellow member of these forums who is (3) not a public person and (4) who is not the subject of this thread.

The last few pages are a complete waste of bandwidth with a bunch of crap solely designed to discredit Betsy and create specious argument.

More Betsy trolling...

Dave.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Very difficult to get this straight because you got all the dirty dozen going bat crazy over damilliomacenvallians post. Or how someone called Lance a pig but that was interpreted to be them calling Betsy a pig.

The article I read was or is - a transcript from "recent testimony" reveals that Lance Armstrong under oath said Frankie Andreu was on PED's the majority of his career. THE USATODAY multi colored fish wrap contacted Frankie and questioned him on the basis of that recent testimony. Frankie denied it.

I don't get what reading the transcripts from the USADA case has to do with this - nor do I understand how anyone can say/posts it is Lance going to the media. I think some of the dirty dozen have a reading and comprehension problem.

Anyhow it would be interesting to know the full scope of all those USPS riders who where fully into the game once they arrived in the European peloton. Not like there would be anyone stupid enough to believe that before Lance joined the team they were not doing PED's. Even Tyler mentions doping pre Lance on a team wide basis.

Then after all of that reading --- this thread you got a couple of members who claim this damionomcinvallley is Lance. I thought that was a total NO go zone but obviously they were just baiting this member DM into getting banned, because that is the SOP in this sand box.

Seriously if the dirty dozen found out today that all the USPS members from inception were "doping the majority of their career's" would you be shocked? HOW can you answer that question with anything other than NO.

Glenn, sorry, but you are whitewashing.

I, for one, am not accusing damianomcinvalley of being anyone.

That his nonsense reads like a string of Armstrong lies does not suggest that he/she is Lance, or that there has been any communication between him/her and Lance.

My statement merely provides a sense of the lies being uttered.

Nor am I looking for damanomcinvalley to be banned.

However !!!

However, these are lies.

They also sure look like (1) a whole bunch of ad hominems that are (2) being directed at a fellow member of these forums who is (3) not a public person and (4) who is not the subject of this thread.

The last few pages are a complete waste of bandwidth with a bunch of crap solely designed to discredit Betsy and create specious argument.

More Betsy trolling...

Dave.

Is this you telling me that I'm trolling Betsy? WOW I have read just about a tone of crap but if that is your post or contention then I truly don't get you at all. I'm part of the last page and as you put it I have wasted bandwidth with crap to discredit Betsy which I think you are full of crap with that line of thought.

I read these last pages and at first I thought this was over some type of facebook message or twittt from Lance. It is not and it is a bit ironic that you guys who self serve each other are on here calling people out. That was just my opinion.

 

[zigmeister]

Re: Re:

Betsy Andreu is the face of modern omerta. Instead of honestly dealing with the predictable outcome of an undetectable drug with huge performance gains being injected into a sport with more than a hundred years of rampant drug use, she and the industry around pro cycling want to simplify the issue by blaming a handful of people. Fixing a systemic problem is intractable. Blaming a few scapegoats is easy, and the public likes easy solutions to complex problems. Those in the industry use this approach because it is in their financial interest to bury the problem, to pretend it ended with Armstrong, and to tread lightly when it comes to what all the other riders were doing at the time. Betsy does it because her whole life, just like her Facebook page, is about prosecuting her grudge against Lance.

She never cared about doping in cycling. Doping is just a convenient cudgel for her to use in her feud. What makes it more sickening is her assuming the role of steadfast truthseeker even as she lies to the public by manipulating the story to put more blame on Armstrong. This focused blame is an impediment to handling the doping problem. It has become the new omerta. Instead of zipping their lips, people can now blame everything on a notable whipping boy.

In the countless interviews, which she seeks out from a stable of pliant journalists, she never deals with the fairness of holding a few responsible when doping was the norm not the exception. She never mentionas the limited utlity of such an approach. Instead she has constructed a false narrative of Lance being unique and responsible for the whole sport. Just the other week she was pushing her usual lie with a tale of the sport being ready to clean itself up after Festina but Lance's 1999 Tour win dragging everyone back to the needle. She never mentioned that just a month and a half earlier Pantani was shooting up the climbs at the Giro and a month and a half earlier than that Franke Vandenbroucke was putting the wood to everyone at LBL. Year after year it has been a constant drumbeat of blaming one person for doping that stretches back to the late 1800s.

The fabulous story she has been pushing on the public is predicated on a lie. In her self-aggrandizing fable she was minding her own business until the SCA case and Lance hates her for refusing to lie in a deposition. In fact she had been engaged in a whispering campaign for years, online and offline. She sought out journalists, and that was one of the reasons the SCA case happened in the first place. The timeline betrays her deception.

The root of the feud is money. It is why she is constantly harping on about the sizes of other riders' houses and their gran fondos. She suffered under the crazy delusion that in an era of near universal blood vector doping Frankie could stop and still be a useful domestique. At the same time she concocted a plan to jack Frankie's salary by feigning an offer from another team. In short, she wanted Frankie to get more money while being less useful. Never a great plan for getting a pay rise. Instead of recognizing pro cyclists doping is like coal miners getting dirty, she constructed an elaborate fraud that had Lance forcing others to dope. She is the source of that lie. Tygart took it and ran with it. Other Postal riders found Tygart was more than willing to allow them to evade responsiblity for their own decisions if they blamed those he had targeted.

She uses this false narrative to manipulate the public and has been doing so for years. This is why, even though Frankie was strung out on EPO for years, she and Frankie cannot admit to his corticosteroid use at Motorola before 1995. In her mind, the monkey Frankie carried around on his back long before Lance won the Tour is not Franke's fault. Frankie didn't dope for himself; he doped for Lance! Admitting that Frankie was using the usual corticosteroids that were handed out at Motorola, just like they were standard at other teams, would be taking the blame off Lance Armstrong, and that is something that is not in Betsy's playbook. With her vindictiveness more and more evident since Armstrong's downfall, you can bet her husband is well aware of what would be in store for him if he contradicted her talking points.

This post is full of lies, insinuations and half truths,

Machiavelli, your post is full of absurdities.

1. Betsy and the "industry" do not have some conspiracy agreement to blame doping on a few. Betsy has stated publicly that doping was rampant in cycling.

2. Betsy's issue is not rampant doping in cycling but Armstrong's pathetic attempt to call her a liar about what she overheard in a hospital. If someone like Armstrong called me a liar when I knew I was not lying I would be pretty pissed too. By the way it is also called defamation, something Armstrong is pretty good at.

3. Armstrong continues to lie. All Betsy is doing is pointing that out.

4. Betsy was strongly against doping in cycling and made it clear to Frankie that if he doped she would not marry him. Frankie lied to Betsy that he was not doping so they got married. I am sure Betsy felt let down by Frankie when he came clean but obviously they worked through that issue and remain together

5. Betsy has never said Lance was solely responsible for doping in cycling. However Armstrong was responsible for intentionally creating the most sophisticated doping program for any one cycling team in history (although some would argue with some validity the doping programs of other teams was sophisticated too) USADA found this to be true based on substantial, clear and convincing evidence. This substantiates Betsy's criticism of LA.

The rest of your post is a fairy-tale and a jumbled mishmash of your imagination. It is an incoherent diatribe, full of illogical reasoning, contradictory bunk, intellectually dishonest and a crude and banal farrago of nonsense.

1) Really? Because she continues to love to always talk about Lance...yet, we never have heard anything out of her mouth except about Lance, or anything related to such, movie, USADA etc..

2) Defamation? Ok Mr. Lawyer. This is not defamation. It is he-said she-said she continually refers to and she can't even prove. Because it was his word against hers in that hospital room. There were no tape recordings of it. So it is considered "hearsay". That is the legal term you should refer to. Not defamation. Saying Frankie doped for many years, well, you just make my point for me later on in part 4. Somehow I think she might be under the impression that Frankie didn't lie to her. But he did. For a long time. She somehow forgives him, yet Lance, well, we must continue to take ever opportunity to make him the fall-guy of all doping in cycling. If she has such integrity and principals, she should have divorced Frankie and really showed how holy art thou!! Yet, she continues to believe her husband, who lied to her previously. But Lance, like Frankie, who has a history of lying, says something, it must be a lie you say??? And Frankie and his word is better than Lance's? Maybe to Betsy, but Frankie's word isn't any more valid regarding his past

3) Ok, again, see #2 above. Who can prove/disprove what Lance is saying? Nobody. Frankie isn't going to now, years later, after lying once, now all of the sudden tell his wife..."mmmm...honey, promise you won't be mad? Lance is telling the truth, I doped longer than I told you originally!"

Yeah, right. Frankie will do exactly what Lance is doing, and maybe Frankie is just as much a liar as Lance, due to his wife Betsy and how it would affect her, his and her image etc. Not good. Surely their lawyer recommended they never say anything different for the rest of their lives than the "truth as they know it."

4) Again, how do you know how/what she "feels"? And see 3# above. Maybe Frankie is living a lie this entire time...is that in the realm of possibility to anybody? He doped and lied before. Now he just decides to keep his pie hole shut and never tell the "whole truth"??? Maybe?

5) Give us a break. USADA...Tygart...the Holy independent and completely unbiased leader of the witch hunt!! Please. I believe Lance, it really was so simple and easy what they did, and others were doing, it was the least sophisticated thing going. I mean, some dude just rides a motorcycle over the border, picks up some drugs from a doctor, heads back across...wow, that is so sophisticated!!!!

Tygart is ridiculously sensationalist, and on top of that, gave people a free pass to "get Lance" because Lance wouldn't cooperate and fought them. Oh wait...Danielson got busted doping again???? Way to go Tygart. Since you gave them the Winter off from competing. Obviously Tygart/USADA contributed to his belief that he likely would never get caught. Had they went after Danielson and the likes equally, there would be not Danielson testing positive. Because he should not have been competing to begin with this year anyway!!!

He admitted that flat out in interviews Tygart has. Had Lance come forward, well, maybe things would have been handled different. But since Lance didn't we did whatever it took to go after the big fish and make an example. His words. Not mine. Research that.

Also, sidebar, been saying for several years now Betsy has her own agenda and personality issues going on.

And then there is all the information they still won't reveal, not a judge related to the case due to the Whistle Blower lawsuit. Hence, we still don't know WTF entirely is going on, who is telling lies and truths completely.

damilliomacenvallians's post was very well written and thought out, and many agree with this.

Lance is Lance. Yeah, he doped, he got caught, he lied blah blah...we get it. But any time Betsy has some platform and opportunity...well, the usual suspects/media are right there to "Get her viewpoint."