Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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babastooey said:
Either you didn't get my point because you didn't see the quote I was responding to....meaning, who cares if he "cracks" or not, unless the punishment is a means to an end and not the end itself....

Or, you are following all of this, and your use of the word "lifetime" suggests you are looking forward to the day Lance is found swinging from a beam in his garage?

I never know what other people are thinking. If I was a mind reader, I guess I wouldnt ever have to ask questions.

The only question you asked me is the one above, which appears to be as much a conclusion than a question -but since I am a nice guy I will answer it, no, I do not wish that on him.

And no, I don't really get your point, because you appear to have taken one persons opinion on Lance and tried to make that in to some argument about the length of the ban.
It is a lifetime ban, not a death sentence.
 
Jul 10, 2012
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I'm not really making an argument on the length of anything. I just found the comment interesting:

"The isolation is generally will what makes you crack. He's only a few months into his ban... he won't last"

I don't think that it is USADA's goal to make Lance crack. But the comment has me curious. What is the endgame? Will people not be satisfied until Armstrong makes a public act to demonstrate how he has cracked? Will he rob a bank? Go on some sort of cross-country spree?

And the comment "he won't last," that has my interest piqued. Will we see Lance swinging from his garage next to the bike he rode to "win" all those races?

I guess my comments were more for Monseiur Le Hog than anyone else, because he is the one who wrote it. I generally find what he writes to be interesting and sometimes amusing.

I get that for years people wanted Lance to get what he deserved. Or at least, to have taken away what he didn't. But now that all of that had basically gone down (with the exception of the stacks of lawsuits), the fire that has consumed the "get Lance" brigade still burns with a deep passion. So I ask, what is the endgame? When will the pitchfork and torch crowd be appeased?

In other words, it wasn't really your deal, which I guess earns you the Mr. Butts In of the Day award.
 
May 27, 2012
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babastooey said:
The swim meet had a whole "Puppet Show and Spinal Tap" feel to it.

What's next? USADA objects to Lance playing right field and hitting cleanup in the Austin Men's Over 40 slowpitch softball league?

surly_bk_troll_12_z.jpg
 
May 27, 2012
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babastooey said:
The swim meet had a whole "Puppet Show and Spinal Tap" feel to it.

What's next? USADA objects to Lance playing right field and hitting cleanup in the Austin Men's Over 40 slowpitch softball league?

8197734198_acf7ee1392_z.jpg
 
May 27, 2012
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babastooey said:
I'm not really making an argument on the length of anything. I just found the comment interesting:

"The isolation is generally will what makes you crack. He's only a few months into his ban... he won't last"

I don't think that it is USADA's goal to make Lance crack. But the comment has me curious. What is the endgame? Will people not be satisfied until Armstrong makes a public act to demonstrate how he has cracked? Will he rob a bank? Go on some sort of cross-country spree?

And the comment "he won't last," that has my interest piqued. Will we see Lance swinging from his garage next to the bike he rode to "win" all those races?

I guess my comments were more for Monseiur Le Hog than anyone else, because he is the one who wrote it. I generally find what he writes to be interesting and sometimes amusing.

I get that for years people wanted Lance to get what he deserved. Or at least, to have taken away what he didn't. But now that all of that had basically gone down (with the exception of the stacks of lawsuits), the fire that has consumed the "get Lance" brigade still burns with a deep passion. So I ask, what is the endgame? When will the pitchfork and torch crowd be appeased?

In other words, it wasn't really your deal, which I guess earns you the Mr. Butts In of the Day award.

jill-greenberg-crying-photoshopped-babies-end-times-17.jpg
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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babastooey said:
I'm not really making an argument on the length of anything. I just found the comment interesting:

"The isolation is generally will what makes you crack. He's only a few months into his ban... he won't last"

I don't think that it is USADA's goal to make Lance crack. But the comment has me curious. What is the endgame? Will people not be satisfied until Armstrong makes a public act to demonstrate how he has cracked? Will he rob a bank? Go on some sort of cross-country spree?

And the comment "he won't last," that has my interest piqued. Will we see Lance swinging from his garage next to the bike he rode to "win" all those races?

I guess my comments were more for Monseiur Le Hog than anyone else, because he is the one who wrote it. I generally find what he writes to be interesting and sometimes amusing.

I get that for years people wanted Lance to get what he deserved. Or at least, to have taken away what he didn't. But now that all of that had basically gone down (with the exception of the stacks of lawsuits), the fire that has consumed the "get Lance" brigade still burns with a deep passion. So I ask, what is the endgame? When will the pitchfork and torch crowd be appeased?

In other words, it wasn't really your deal, which I guess earns you the Mr. Butts In of the Day award.

You found a trolling comment interesting?

As for the rest - Armstrong got a lifetime ban. Thats it. That was the endgame.
 
babastooey said:
The punishment wasn't the goal. The punishment then isn't really punishment, its a tactic designed to move closer to the real goal....the goal is to make him....confess? Kill himself?

Don't be silly. The goal was never punishment. The goal is to keep a cheating athlete and a dope supplier away from sports. It's a prophylactic measure--not a punishment.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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To be honest, I want to see him crack. What's happened to him so far for the last 7 months is nothing compared to over a decade of torment he's inflicted on others.

Karma's a b!tch, ain't it?
 
babastooey said:
I'm not really making an argument on the length of anything. I just found the comment interesting:

"The isolation is generally will what makes you crack. He's only a few months into his ban... he won't last"

I don't think that it is USADA's goal to make Lance crack. But the comment has me curious. What is the endgame? Will people not be satisfied until Armstrong makes a public act to demonstrate how he has cracked? Will he rob a bank? Go on some sort of cross-country spree?

And the comment "he won't last," that has my interest piqued. Will we see Lance swinging from his garage next to the bike he rode to "win" all those races?

I guess my comments were more for Monseiur Le Hog than anyone else, because he is the one who wrote it. I generally find what he writes to be interesting and sometimes amusing.

I get that for years people wanted Lance to get what he deserved. Or at least, to have taken away what he didn't. But now that all of that had basically gone down (with the exception of the stacks of lawsuits), the fire that has consumed the "get Lance" brigade still burns with a deep passion. So I ask, what is the endgame? When will the pitchfork and torch crowd be appeased?

In other words, it wasn't really your deal, which I guess earns you the Mr. Butts In of the Day award.

Maybe he will crack like Mike Anderson, who was bullied and harassed by Armstrong and his paid thugs to the point that he moved to a country on the other side of the world.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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babastooey said:
The punishment wasn't the goal. The punishment then isn't really punishment, its a tactic designed to move closer to the real goal....the goal is to make him....confess? Kill himself?

I think USADA has put the ball in his court, and has given up on productive dialog. There is no veiled goal here. Lance will have to find new ways to spend his time, and come to grips with the fact that he has been exposed.

He still can come forward at some point, but his revelations will be old news to most. And sadly he is stuck with a world televised confession that further confirmed his status as a serial liar.....

Too bad.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
What part of lifetime ban do you need explained?

I guess what the babastooey was saying had something to do with the facts--Masters Swim Championships is something like playing slow pitch baseball. The fact that FINA got involved surprised me.

It is a fact that Masters Swimming is not subject to USADA's reach. Come to think of it ....I don't think Slow Pitch Softball pickup games are either.

So on theory he could do weekend warrior stuff all he wants but that does not seem to be the case considering FINA are an example of what might happen.
 
TheEnoculator said:
To be honest, I want to see him crack. What's happened to him so far for the last 7 months is nothing compared to over a decade of torment he's inflicted on others.

Karma's a b!tch, ain't it?

I don't want to see him crack. That's unnecessary cruelty. I'd like to see him forced by economic circumstance to work a real job!
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
It is a fact that Masters Swimming is not subject to USADA's reach.

Oh really? If the event uses FINA sanctioning, then it is. Just like Master's Cycling under the UCI happens with WADA rules. Is there a website for the event? Event flyer?

The promoter is a sketchy character because he was claiming the event wasn't FINA sanctioned.

Glenn_Wilson said:
So on theory he could do weekend warrior stuff all he wants...

As long as the event is NOT sanctioned by a sports federation that has signed up to the WADA standard, he can do all the events that are willing to take him. He did that small-time Triathlon in San Diego. There's no money or prestige in those events anyway. He can be the Austin's King of the Bikepathletes. Which, is fine by me.

The fact that Olympic sports federations have a monopoly on most of the money made organizing weekend warrior events is biting him in the @ss right now.

Don't be surprised if he ends up as an IOC/UCI official 10 years from now. His offenses are about average for the UCI and IOC.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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MarkvW said:
I don't want to see him crack. That's unnecessary cruelty. I'd like to see him forced by economic circumstance to work a real job!

Unnecessary cruelty? The guy's a sociopath. He's the very definition of cruelty himself, only more senseless than the average person. He has no remorse, it's like torturing a person who can't feel any pain, it's pointless. So making him crack is probably the only way he can be seen as human.

Besides, at 41, the guy is almost unemployable. Never finished school, doesn't have any tangible skills. Maybe he can work for McD's, that'd be a good news day.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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TheEnoculator said:
it's like torturing a person who can't feel any pain, it's pointless.


There's a saying--among the Jews iirc--which goes like this:

_____ It's better to never have had any riches at all
_____ than to have had many riches and lost them all.


The Great Ex-Champ is stewing inside an infernal cauldron of regret for the '09 come-back.
I bet he finds a foot and a hand hold somewhere though. That struggle probably
helps him keep his head high. He's a crafty snake.
 
Nov 11, 2011
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TheEnoculator said:
Unnecessary cruelty? The guy's a sociopath. He's the very definition of cruelty himself, only more senseless than the average person. He has no remorse, it's like torturing a person who can't feel any pain, it's pointless. So making him crack is probably the only way he can be seen as human.

Besides, at 41, the guy is almost unemployable. Never finished school, doesn't have any tangible skills. Maybe he can work for McD's, that'd be a good news day.

It could actually be that working a real job as Mark suggests - like all us normal, everyday, anonymous non-champions - is the sort of punishment that would be extra painful for him and he may eventually need to swallow. For an ego like his and all the sociopathic qualities we see in and expect of him, working a normal 9-5 and having to suck it up like everyone else would be some kind of poetic justice. :)
 
TheEnoculator said:
Besides, at 41, the guy is almost unemployable. Never finished school, doesn't have any tangible skills. Maybe he can work for McD's, that'd be a good news day.

Two options come to mind:

1. Work for Wiesel's financing operation. That might be a little too close for Wiesel to stay in control of his mancrush. It would be a good fit though. The loose regulatory environment is perfect for scamming all kinds of investors.

2. Work for Carmichael's training scam. I think the irony alone would cause the organization to collapse though.

But, he's not going to change, so it's about finding the next scam to be the front-guy on.
 
I posted this in the Jan Ullrich thread, but it's of course more appropriate here. Let the historical revisionist project begin!

Lance Armstrong’s Era of Performance – Part I: Are his time trial performances much different from other winners?

Abstract
In the aftermath of USADA’s doping charges, Lance Armstrong eventually acknowledged the use of banned substances during his professional cycling career. Reckoning his confessions, we decided to evaluate Armstrong’s sportive accomplishments by comparing his winning time trial achievements with achievements demonstrated by other riders in similar races over the years. In time trial racing, there are no collaborating riders on the course, making opportunities to profit from other riders’ efforts through drafting impossible. Time trial performances thus solely depend on the strength and endurance of the individual rider. Accordingly, we argue that an examination of the ‘historic’ variation in these individual performances will increase chances to detect the influence of illicit doping aids on Armstrong’s performances. In view of his doping use, we expected that his performances would be faster compared to performances of his counterparts in foregoing and succeeding years. We scrutinized archival records of the cycling sport and retrieved information concerning Armstrong’s winning time trial performances (N = 7), realized in the Tour de France (1999–2005), as well as performances of other riders (N = 55) who, from 1934 to 2010, won races in the three European Grand Tours (Tour de France, Giro d’Italia, and Vuelta a España) and all faced time trial distances comparable to Armstrong’s (50–61 km). We examined our research question by analysis of covariance (ANCOVA) with riders as the independent variable (Armstrong vs. the other riders) and mean km/h performances as the dependent variable in which we controlled for the influence of year of competition (i.e., the year in which riders won their time trial) and distances of the trials on riders’ speed. ANCOVA initially revealed that Armstrong (Mkm/h = 49.37) indeed raced faster relative to the other riders (Mkm/h = 44.67, p ≤ 0.05). However, this main effect disappeared (p = 0.80) after controlling for the influence of competition year on riders’ performances, b = 0.20 km/h, p ≤ 0.001. Distance did not have a significant influence, b = -0.03 km/h, p = 0.84. ANCOVA further indicated that all but one of Armstrong’s performances fell within the bandwidth of the 68% confidence interval. Reckoning the historic variation in riders’ performances, Armstrong’s achievements do not appear to be outstanding or atypical, implying that effects of the performance–enhancing doping aids he resorted to are limited. Alternatively, his performances can also be plausibly explained by a gradual progress in speed over time, which is characteristic for professional cycling races such as the Tour de France.

Incredibly, the authors cite a recent paper that concluded there is no evidence that EPO has a performance-enhancing effect. I believe that paper was discussed on this forum a while back, and thoroughly rebutted, though I can't find the thread. They also cite a paper by that giant of anti-doping research Hein Verbruggen, who says that the effects of other PEDs are over-rated. I guess this is Heinie's fallback position from "never, never, never".

A few comments on the paper itself:

1) Nothing about how LA’s winning TT times compared to what he accomplished in his earlier years. You would think if one were going to use data like these to argue that there isn’t much effect of doping—which is exactly what these authors are doing—you would want to make a comparison like this.

2) The riders used for comparison are not described very well. In the Abstract, it says they “won races in the three European Grand Tours”. Does this mean they won the GT itself, or that they simply won an ITT? In the article itself, the authors say they won ITTs, but do not say whether they won the GT. Based on the number (55), and that all GTs were analyzed for a period of about 70 years, one might assume they were all GT winners. There would have been a total of several hundred ITTs in the three GTs during this period. But apparently only long ITTs, 50-60 km, were analyzed. So I'm guessing the 55 winners represented all winners of ITTs of this length, whether or not they won the GT. This is a critical point that should have been clarified, as ITT winners who did not win the GT might have been specialists, and not appropriate for comparison with someone who was winning ITTs as well as climbing stages. LA's performance as continuing a historical trend of ITT improvement becomes more remarkable in that he was also the best climber in his Tours.

3) All three GTs were analyzed. Since the level of competition is generally lower in the Giro and Vuelta than in the TDF, it could be argued that this historical database of ITT times is somewhat biassed towards lesser riders.

4) A central claim of the paper is that LA’s ITT times are not unusually fast when compared with his contemporaries. They are better than riders of earlier eras, but so were ITT times in general of his era. But of course if doping enhanced LA’s performance, it would enhance that of his contemporaries, too.

However, as far as I can tell from the data (Fig. 1), the recent times do not indicate a big increase in speed that could be attributed to PEDs. This is in contrast to analyses of climbing times or power measurements that I have seen.

5) Given the effects of weather, technical aspects of the course, presence of climbing, etc., interpretation is always going to be difficult. If, e.g., the ITTs that LA won were hillier than those in the past, his times would be slower. Even if they weren’t, these factors put a sizeable error margin into times.
 
Merckx index said:
4) A central claim of the paper is that LA’s ITT times are not unusually fast when compared with his contemporaries. They are better than riders of earlier eras, but so were ITT times in general of his era. But of course if doping enhanced LA’s performance, it would enhance that of his contemporaries, too.

Yeah, that was my first thought when I read the abstract too - accepting their findings, there is at least one other explanation, that even seems self-evident to any observer of cycling: Armstrong wasn't the only one in those races who was doping.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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spalco said:
Yeah, that was my first thought when I read the abstract too - accepting their findings, there is at least one other explanation, that even seems self-evident to any observer of cycling: Armstrong wasn't the only one in those races who was doping.

TT times I don't think are good measures. Climbing times especially up on hard climbers are a better indictor. Chris Boardman or Obree didn't have crazy numbers but could get very areo.

In that article posted, 49km/hr is huge diference from 44 km/hr. I don't understand how they say that washes away but air resistance is a square function. (49/44)^2 = 1.24. So, assuming similar areo dynamics, Armstrong was putting out around 24% power. That is pretty out there. Can you image a marathoner being 20% faster than their world class competition?