Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Tygart is doing a job. He does this for money. I'm sure we all have jobs which we do for money. Sometimes we do our jobs, get paid, but also feel satisfaction that we have done our job well or achieved something.

But, usually, our satisfaction is knowing we have done a good job in spite of all the real world constraints that limit how we go about things.

In other words, our jobs are rarely in an ideal world. We sometimes have to compromise ourselves, and even our integrity, to do our jobs. Sometimes we have to comprise ourselves in order to do a good job.

Why should it be any different for Tygart?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
Benotti69 said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I'm pretty sure he's the only rider who was also an owner of the team. So there's that bit of awkwardness when your teammate chooses who goes to the Tour *and* tells you to get on the program. Not to mention the fact he's in a business relationship with head of the sport (Verbruggen) trying to *buy* the Tour. What about that sick feeling you get when you're the reigning Italian road champion, but can't get a ride at the Giro? Livestrong.com vs Livestrong.org but I'm sure that was an innocent bit of confusion.

It goes on, but I'm pretty sure that Lance "you're not worth the chair you're sitting on" Armstrong is unique even in the world of cycling. And after trying to get the USADA defunded by lobbying congress, I'm not sure why you think he didn't get a fair shake. Even after all that, Tygart gave him a chance to talk and reduce his sentence. For *months* after the reasoned decision. No, Lance got everything coming to him.

John Swanson

I think David Millar was a part owner of Team Slipstream for a while.

The decision to give Armstrong a lifetime ban was correct, imo. I am not going to rehash Armstrong's history, but anyone who would want to see that guy back involved in any sport has lost a marble or 2.

Letting others off lightly and continuing to do so makes a hypocrisy of the whole system. Seems Tygart is just as 'corruptible' as others and the going after Armstrong appears to have been personal, but then the person to blame for that is Armstrong. The guy is such a jerk, imagine he could now be bribing police forces in Texas to buy his bikes to ride :D

I don't think that Tygart is actually corrupt. I think he was engaged in some Realpolitik. Either he works with JV - who hands over his crew - and gets mountains of info to expose doping in cycling
what doping did he expose, except Lance's?
Sure, he went after Leinders, props for that, but only showed interest in his pre-Sky period.
in exchange for short term bans, or he gets nothing. No Armstrong. No reasoned decision. No CIRC. Absolutely nothing. Hell, Pat would still be in charge at the UCI.
As you yourself admit, it hasn't gotten much better.
Of course, that historic opportunity was absolutely wasted. We're pretty much back to where we were 5 to 7 years ago. There just wasn't enough willpower from the teams, UCI, sponsors to enact any real change.
exactly, which is, imo, why it is fair to review of Lance's lifetime ban.
I don't want him back in the sport, but after these 5-7 years, reviewing what has happened in those years, there's just no way one can keep a straight face and ignore the double standards. One for Lance, one for everybody else. I personally needed these 5-7 years to realize this. Following the USADA file, I was one of the optimistic posters, saying we should give Cookson a chance.

That's the irony: all Tygart has achieved in the end is emphasize how corrupt, incurable, and hypocrit the system is.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Benotti69 said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I'm pretty sure he's the only rider who was also an owner of the team. So there's that bit of awkwardness when your teammate chooses who goes to the Tour *and* tells you to get on the program. Not to mention the fact he's in a business relationship with head of the sport (Verbruggen) trying to *buy* the Tour. What about that sick feeling you get when you're the reigning Italian road champion, but can't get a ride at the Giro? Livestrong.com vs Livestrong.org but I'm sure that was an innocent bit of confusion.

It goes on, but I'm pretty sure that Lance "you're not worth the chair you're sitting on" Armstrong is unique even in the world of cycling. And after trying to get the USADA defunded by lobbying congress, I'm not sure why you think he didn't get a fair shake. Even after all that, Tygart gave him a chance to talk and reduce his sentence. For *months* after the reasoned decision. No, Lance got everything coming to him.

John Swanson

I think David Millar was a part owner of Team Slipstream for a while.

The decision to give Armstrong a lifetime ban was correct, imo. I am not going to rehash Armstrong's history, but anyone who would want to see that guy back involved in any sport has lost a marble or 2.

Letting others off lightly and continuing to do so makes a hypocrisy of the whole system. Seems Tygart is just as 'corruptible' as others and the going after Armstrong appears to have been personal, but then the person to blame for that is Armstrong. The guy is such a jerk, imagine he could now be bribing police forces in Texas to buy his bikes to ride :D

I don't think that Tygart is actually corrupt. I think he was engaged in some Realpolitik. Either he works with JV - who hands over his crew - and gets mountains of info to expose doping in cycling in exchange for short term bans, or he gets nothing. No Armstrong. No reasoned decision. No CIRC. Absolutely nothing. Hell, Pat would still be in charge at the UCI.

Of course, that historic opportunity was absolutely wasted. We're pretty much back to where we were 5 to 7 years ago. There just wasn't enough willpower from the teams, UCI, sponsors to enact any real change.

John Swanson

Tygart let Gaitlin back after a 2nd positive, which should have been a 4 year ban. Tom Danielson and the silence is deafening.

All Tygart did was expose Armstrong, Bruyneel and a couple of Docs (who i dont think blinked career wise). Doping never went away, ever, no matter how much Vaughters tried to spin it.

Whether Tygart is taking brown envelopes, i dont know, but not applying rules across the board is corruption, why does Danielson's case take over a year to process? That stinks. Is it because he favours JV, well that is corruption!

So Armstrong got the full rigour of a ban and others got winter breaks and allowed to continue as before. Doesn't sound reasonable.

I fully support Armstrong gone for life, but others should have faced big fines at least. I dont think JV played that much of a part in the final 'reasoned decision', I think the Feds is where the real pressure came from, Novitsky and his interviews was what finally caught Armstrong, not JV dragging unwilling riders to testify. Perjury and jail time is what motivated people. JV just spun it to his advantage so he didn't lose some top riders from his team.

As for change, when WADA is part of the problem, where do you go to find a solution!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I'm pretty sure he's the only rider who was also an owner of the team. So there's that bit of awkwardness when your teammate chooses who goes to the Tour *and* tells you to get on the program. Not to mention the fact he's in a business relationship with head of the sport (Verbruggen) trying to *buy* the Tour. What about that sick feeling you get when you're the reigning Italian road champion, but can't get a ride at the Giro? Livestrong.com vs Livestrong.org but I'm sure that was an innocent bit of confusion.

It goes on, but I'm pretty sure that Lance "you're not worth the chair you're sitting on" Armstrong is unique even in the world of cycling. And after trying to get the USADA defunded by lobbying congress, I'm not sure why you think he didn't get a fair shake. Even after all that, Tygart gave him a chance to talk and reduce his sentence. For *months* after the reasoned decision. No, Lance got everything coming to him.

John Swanson

I think David Millar was a part owner of Team Slipstream for a while.

The decision to give Armstrong a lifetime ban was correct, imo. I am not going to rehash Armstrong's history, but anyone who would want to see that guy back involved in any sport has lost a marble or 2.

Letting others off lightly and continuing to do so makes a hypocrisy of the whole system. Seems Tygart is just as 'corruptible' as others and the going after Armstrong appears to have been personal, but then the person to blame for that is Armstrong. The guy is such a jerk, imagine he could now be bribing police forces in Texas to buy his bikes to ride :D
nice one

so did Eddy learn that he needs to bribe the po-po from Lance and Bill and Knaggs, ?

luv the name, the po=po. I previously merely pleonasm used to say poh=leece
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Gotta remember that the USADA is not "world police for cycling". The US stands for United States. So in that light, nabbing Hincapie, Michael Barry, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Van de Velde and Danielson was pretty darn good even if the short bans were "distasteful". Tygart was able to pull the lid off of doping in North America and gave everyone a good look at what was inside. So, no, Lance was not singled out and nearly everyone and everything was exposed.

It was the job of every team owner, sponsor, and UCI official to take that information and change the sport. Don't blame Tygart that the cycling world effectively shrugged and went back to business.

Lance's biggest problem wasn't Tygart, it was Lance. He was offered many times to sit down like the others and get a deal in exchange for his testimony. He wouldn't get 6 months vacation, but his list of crimes was (a lot) longer than the others too. He probably could have walked away with a 4 year ban and most of his Tour wins - he would have been free to compete again next year. What did Lance do? Went for scorched earth and in the end that's what he got.

John Swanson
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I think David Millar was a part owner of Team Slipstream for a while.

david millar was also a bit of a w@anker for a while, in fact, he has been a bit of a w@nker most of his life but i am glad to inform the Clinic12 that MillarTime has evolved to full blown w@nker. And I shall refrain from any biblical idiom lest IronDan hits the dump button.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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The "stopped doping in 2006" line was an obvious lie and I think it would've been relatively easy to expose it as such. Tygart didn't do anything to expose it, though.
Instead he vouched for the truthfulness of the affidavits, which begs the question how he knows they were truthful. :rolleyes:

"It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

"The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/
And how do you like this one:
"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/

And this is what Tygart said after Hesjedal's admission:
USADA confirmed to Cyclingnews that Hesjedal had been interviewed by them and CCES. “As has been publicly reported, we can confirm that USADA, along with the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport (CCES), interviewed cyclist, Ryder Hesjedal, earlier this year as part of our ongoing investigation into the sport of cycling," CEO Travis Tygart said. "Athletes like him and others, who have voluntarily come in, taken accountability for their actions and have been fully truthful, are essential to securing a brighter future for the sport of cycling.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada/

Corrupt, or sold out, sounds about right.
 
Re:

sniper said:
The "stopped doping in 2006" line was an obvious lie and I think it would've been relatively easy to expose it as such. Tygart didn't do anything to expose it, though.
Instead he vouched for the truthfulness of the affidavits, which begs the question how he knows they were truthful. :rolleyes:

"It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

"The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/

And this is what Tygart said after Hesjedal's admission:
USADA confirmed to Cyclingnews that Hesjedal had been interviewed by them and CCES. “As has been publicly reported, we can confirm that USADA, along with the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport (CCES), interviewed cyclist, Ryder Hesjedal, earlier this year as part of our ongoing investigation into the sport of cycling," CEO Travis Tygart said. "Athletes like him and others, who have voluntarily come in, taken accountability for their actions and have been fully truthful, are essential to securing a brighter future for the sport of cycling.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada/

Corrupt sounds about right.



Good post. That's why TT is in a total bind with TommyD. If he finds him guilty, a lifetime ban must ensue. That would mean no coaching camps, no income, Tommy would go rouge or at the very least explain how the 2012 affidavits were shambled together. They can't ban Tommy, it won't be possible. They will wait long enough to find a way out when all is just about forgotten. It certainly won't happen prior to the government case being settled.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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thehog said:
...
Good post. That's why TT is in a total bind with TommyD. If he finds him guilty, a lifetime ban must ensue. That would mean no coaching camps, no income, Tommy would go rouge or at the very least explain how the 2012 affidavits were shambled together. They can't ban Tommy, it won't be possible. They will wait long enough to find a way out when all is just about forgotten. It certainly won't happen prior to the government case being settled.

"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike."
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/
 
Jul 5, 2009
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sniper said:
The "stopped doping in 2006" line was an obvious lie and I think it would've been relatively easy to expose it as such. Tygart didn't do anything to expose it, though.
Instead he vouched for the truthfulness of the affidavits, which begs the question how he knows they were truthful. :rolleyes:

"It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

"The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/
And how do you like this one:
"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.
http://www.usada.org/statement-from-usada-ceo-travis-t-tygart-regarding-the-u-s-postal-service-pro-cycling-team-doping-conspiracy/

And this is what Tygart said after Hesjedal's admission:
USADA confirmed to Cyclingnews that Hesjedal had been interviewed by them and CCES. “As has been publicly reported, we can confirm that USADA, along with the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sport (CCES), interviewed cyclist, Ryder Hesjedal, earlier this year as part of our ongoing investigation into the sport of cycling," CEO Travis Tygart said. "Athletes like him and others, who have voluntarily come in, taken accountability for their actions and have been fully truthful, are essential to securing a brighter future for the sport of cycling.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada/

Corrupt, or sold out, sounds about right.

I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

And you know what? If, after the reasoned decision, these clowns did start to fight for clean sport then they would have been "essential to securing a brighter future for the sport of cycling". Is it Tygart's fault they didn't? Nope. Start with the UCI. And on that note, it was up to the UCI to appeal any sentences that they thought were unfair. Everything from the 6 month vacations to Lance's death sentence.

John Swanson
 
Oct 16, 2010
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good post, John, fair points by all means.

Still, when Hesjedal's forced admission came, TT was under no obvious obligation or pressure to vouch for Hesjedal. Right there he sh/could've chosen to stay agnostic. The Lance investigation had passed.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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sniper said:
good post, John, fair points by all means.

Still, when Hesjedal's forced admission came, TT was under no obvious obligation or pressure to vouch for Hesjedal. Right there he sh/could've chosen to stay agnostic. The Lance investigation had passed.

Agreed. And the silence on Danielson is so weird as the process should have concluded with an "all clear" or an ADRV by now. It invites all kinds of speculation and the optics are terrible.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

And you know what? If, after the reasoned decision, these clowns did start to fight for clean sport then they would have been "essential to securing a brighter future for the sport of cycling". Is it Tygart's fault they didn't? Nope. Start with the UCI. And on that note, it was up to the UCI to appeal any sentences that they thought were unfair. Everything from the 6 month vacations to Lance's death sentence.

John Swanson[/quote]

Well put and for every impulse to discount this progress we have to know that the only thing that will change is the need to constantly deal with cheating. If not we can just call it mutant sports and be done with it.
The reason to do that can be found on the 70's/80's thread; where Pontiac relates the story of racing with his son.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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ScienceIsCool said:
I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

The affidavits are consistent because Tygart and Bock wrote the initial drafts. They decided on the story and left out anything that was off message. Then when the drafts were passed to the witnesses for revisions, they battled everyone who wanted to make additions to keep out anything out that contradicted the story or painted a fuller picture of what was going on at other teams and the sport in general, right to the point of removing information that implicated officials in the UCI and USAC. You are not getting the truth with those or anything close to it. You are getting the prosecution's version of events. You might as well listen to a prosecution's opening statement in court and marvel at its consistency.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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DamianoMachiavelli said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

The affidavits are consistent because Tygart and Bock wrote the initial drafts. They decided on the story and left out anything that was off message. Then when the drafts were passed to the witnesses for revisions, they battled everyone who wanted to make additions to keep out anything out that contradicted the story or painted a fuller picture of what was going on at other teams and the sport in general, right to the point of removing information that implicated officials in the UCI and USAC. You are not getting the truth with those or anything close to it. You are getting the prosecution's version of events. You might as well listen to a prosecution's opening statement in court and marvel at its consistency.

Most definitely. That's why, when he retired, George went on TV with copies of the drafts Bock sent him. You know, expose the criminal actions of the guys who trapped him and forced him to destroy his best pal Lance. Oh wait. There's all those depositions from the federal investigation (that mysteriously got killed on a Friday afternoon before the Super Bowl) - as soon as someone realizes that the affidavits and depositions didn't match... Well, I guess Tygart and Bock will go to prison, hey?

John Swanson

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
DamianoMachiavelli said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

The affidavits are consistent because Tygart and Bock wrote the initial drafts. They decided on the story and left out anything that was off message. Then when the drafts were passed to the witnesses for revisions, they battled everyone who wanted to make additions to keep out anything out that contradicted the story or painted a fuller picture of what was going on at other teams and the sport in general, right to the point of removing information that implicated officials in the UCI and USAC. You are not getting the truth with those or anything close to it. You are getting the prosecution's version of events. You might as well listen to a prosecution's opening statement in court and marvel at its consistency.

Most definitely. That's why, when he retired, George went on TV with copies of the drafts Bock sent him. You know, expose the criminal actions of the guys who trapped him and forced him to destroy his best pal Lance. Oh wait. There's all those depositions from the federal investigation (that mysteriously got killed on a Friday afternoon before the Super Bowl) - as soon as someone realizes that the affidavits and depositions didn't match... Well, I guess Tygart and Bock will go to prison, hey?

John Swanson

John Swanson

What depositions from the Federal Investgation? There were no depositions.

It was only sealed grand jury testimony (which cannot be released without a compelling argument & court order).
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Yes, depositions. You might remember the parade of riders that gave testimony as part of the federal investigation. Much the way Hillary Clinton will be doing as part of a federal investigation. You and I will never see the transcripts of that testimony, but they exist and lots of people are aware of their content. That's why guys like Hincapie told the truth to Tygart. Any differences between the federal deposition and the later affidavits and that's perjury followed by jail time. It would be unfathomable to think that Tygart wouldn't ask a few people whether the affidavits had any obvious lies.

Besides, you really think Bock wrote this and Hincapie signed it? http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie%2c+George+Affidavit.pdf

John Swanson
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
DamianoMachiavelli said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I have no idea what goes on in Tygart's head, but I do know that he needs a bit more to go on than what we in the clinic all know to be true. When you look at all the affidavits, they are consistent and paint a very coherent picture. So yes, these guys told the truth. The whole truth? uh uh. No way. Tygart's not dumb and probably know this, but what's he supposed to do? Dump the whole investigation because he can't get everything he wants? Now that would be corrupt!

The affidavits are consistent because Tygart and Bock wrote the initial drafts. They decided on the story and left out anything that was off message. Then when the drafts were passed to the witnesses for revisions, they battled everyone who wanted to make additions to keep out anything out that contradicted the story or painted a fuller picture of what was going on at other teams and the sport in general, right to the point of removing information that implicated officials in the UCI and USAC. You are not getting the truth with those or anything close to it. You are getting the prosecution's version of events. You might as well listen to a prosecution's opening statement in court and marvel at its consistency.

Most definitely. That's why, when he retired, George went on TV with copies of the drafts Bock sent him. You know, expose the criminal actions of the guys who trapped him and forced him to destroy his best pal Lance. Oh wait. There's all those depositions from the federal investigation (that mysteriously got killed on a Friday afternoon before the Super Bowl) - as soon as someone realizes that the affidavits and depositions didn't match... Well, I guess Tygart and Bock will go to prison, hey?

You have no clue what you are talking about. Thehog touched on it but it goes beyond that. There was no audio or video taken during interviews with USADA or the FDA. This was intentional. There was only the notes jotted down by the interviewers, which gave them control over the narrative.. Anything that did not fit with the story they wanted to portray to the public did not get written down. Thus you get ludicrous depositions like Vande Velde's, where he pretends to be a reluctant doper who was required to dope to keep his job because of the watchful eye of Bruyneel and Armstrong but neglects to give any information about his move from Postal to the dirtiest team in the sport, Liberty Seguros; it certainly does not mention what he did in 2008 on Team Jesus.
 
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ScienceIsCool said:
Yes, depositions. You might remember the parade of riders that gave testimony as part of the federal investigation. Much the way Hillary Clinton will be doing as part of a federal investigation. You and I will never see the transcripts of that testimony, but they exist and lots of people are aware of their content. That's why guys like Hincapie told the truth to Tygart. Any differences between the federal deposition and the later affidavits and that's perjury followed by jail time. It would be unfathomable to think that Tygart wouldn't ask a few people whether the affidavits had any obvious lies.

Besides, you really think Bock wrote this and Hincapie signed it? http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie%2c+George+Affidavit.pdf

John Swanson

No, they were not depositions. It was Grand Jury testimony. Significant difference.

If you understood law; affidavits are often modified and go through several drafts. One key component of a deposition and subsequent affidavit that they remain in topic. If the topic was 'doping in cycling' as distinct from 'Lance Armstrong' then you would have seen a much more fuller and more compete picture.

It's my understanding as well that affidavits were slimmed down to only contain a simple admission from the rider and doping by Lance Armstrong with a ceiling date of 2006.

A federal investigator sat in the room during the deposition so alternate stories could not be told. Tygart and Bock ensured questioning only pertained to USPS and Lance Armstrong.

Seeing as Hincapie signed his final copy, he's not about to go on TV and renounce it. It is a true reflection of doping and Lance Armstrong ONLY, not doping in cycling with USAC/UCI or assistance or anything else, with all of it implying that Armstrong forced all the others to dope.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Yes, depositions. You might remember the parade of riders that gave testimony as part of the federal investigation. Much the way Hillary Clinton will be doing as part of a federal investigation.

Oh, brother. You really have been listening too much to the conspiracy nonsense promoted by Race Radio. The real answer is mundane. Andre Birotte is an ambitious man and people don't get ahead by losing prominent cases. Obama has been stuffing the court system and the DOJ with minorities. It presented a huge opportunity for advancement if Birotte could avoid blowing it. The failure of the Bonds prosecution proved going after famous athletes was a huge uphill climb. Birotte played it safe and was rewarded with a U.S. district court judgeship.
 
Sep 8, 2015
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I saw somewhere else that the "Nike continuing to sponsor" thing is not the case, and news outlets have inadvertently repeated a joke someone made on Twitter?