Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[M Sport]

I dug this up from a forum I read in 2007. Transcript of part Frankie's deposition during the SCA arbitration. Either it's a fabrication or Frankie is a proven liar.

You won't find any evidence either backing up or refuting that transcript. Virtually any trace of Frankie's deposition disappeared from the internets a couple of years ago.

The closest you will get to it is here http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Vol+10,+2006-01-17.pdf starting at bottom of page 2163 through 2166. There is another part I will come back and edit my post with later. It's from another volume.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would have thought the Acceptance Insurance ruling would provide precdent? Or is it different entirely because they never contested and therefore never settled with some sort of agreement being signed as part of that settlement?

Yip, it's the case before the case.
the current dispute is LA/Tailwind trying to say that the case cannot be revisited at all, that the settlement done in 2006 was final. (That's my unlawyerly assessment, any real lawyers can add detail).

You won't find any evidence either backing up or refuting that transcript. Virtually any trace of Frankie's deposition disappeared from the internets a couple of years ago.

The closest you will get to it is here http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Vol+10,+2006-01-17.pdf starting at bottom of page 2163 through 2166. There is another part I will come back and edit my post with later. It's from another volume.

Unfortunately Frankie's deposition was never available, or at least nothing more than some snippets. I remember much the same stuff being posted now in 2009 and there was no trace.
As you note it is in the USADA RS.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Road bike review forum, just paste in some of the text and you will find it.

edit: here is the link http://forums.roadbikereview.com/doping-forum/david-walshs-book-99051-2.html

Which one are you on there?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which one are you on there?

Its tempting to know - but I don't see what knowing will add to anything.
(As well as it could 'out' their RL persona.)

 

[86TDFWinner]

Its tempting to know - but I don't see what knowing will add to anything.
(As well as it could 'out' their RL persona.)

I was just curious, because here, s/he's name is different than any of the names in that thread. But I agree with you.

 

[MarkvW]

Hmmm, what is a pusher?
http://thesaurus.com/browse/drug+supplier

A pusher is a supplier of drugs. In his recent revisionist history George claimed Frankie was his supplier. You are welcome to pretend George did not say that but he did. Not just supplied him but taught him how to use them.

Funny how in his recent interviews he never mentions Ferrari but he goes straight to Frankie. Alex, Reed, Kristen......straight to Frankie.

His agenda is as transparent as yours

George's recent statements were made here:

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

I've read the article, and the most that George says is that (1) Frankie was his mentor; (2) Frankie did EPO (more than experimenting in '95); (3) Frankie taught George how to use EPO; and (4) Frankie told George which pharmacy carried EPO.

These assertions appear to be the normal kinds of things that a USPS domestique would do.

But Race Radio now asserts that George has stated that Frankie was his EPO "supplier" and "pusher." Nowhere in the Free Press report does George claim that Frankie supplied him with EPO. Race Radio has yet to provide a link where George claims that Frankie supplied him with EPO.

 

[mewmewmew13]

George's recent statements were made here:

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

I've read the article, and the most that George says is that (1) Frankie was his mentor; (2) Frankie did EPO (more than experimenting in '95); (3) Frankie taught George how to use EPO; and (4) Frankie told George which pharmacy carried EPO.

These assertions appear to be the normal kinds of things that a USPS domestique would do.

But Race Radio now asserts that George has stated that Frankie was his EPO "supplier" and "pusher." Nowhere in the Free Press report does George claim that Frankie supplied him with EPO. Race Radio has yet to provide a link where George claims that Frankie supplied him with EPO.

“For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

"But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that."
“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland."

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

Sounds like Hincapie is trying pretty hard to drive a point home in his nice guy fashion..

 

[Dear Wiggo]

“For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

"But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that."
“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland."

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

Sounds like Hincapie is trying pretty hard to drive a point home in his nice guy fashion..

Doesn't call him a pusher though. Nor say Frankie supplied the dope himself, just told George how to get it, right?

 

[MarkvW]

“For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

"But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that."
“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland."

http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

Sounds like Hincapie is trying pretty hard to drive a point home in his nice guy fashion..

You're taking Hincapie out of context. Hincapie was attacking Andreu--not by claiming that Andreu was his supplier, though. Andreu, in his USADA affidavit said that in '95 he had "experimented" with EPO. Hincapie is flat out calling that a lie. Who you believe on that issue is a matter of personal preference, I guess. But no way is Hincapie implying that Andreu was his "pusher."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You're taking Hincapie out of context. Hincapie was attacking Andreu--not by claiming that Andreu was his supplier, though. Andreu, in his USADA affidavit said that in '95 he had "experimented" with EPO. Hincapie is flat out calling that a lie. Who you believe on that issue is a matter of personal preference, I guess. But no way is Hincapie implying that Andreu was his "pusher."

Yes he did, its in The Armstrong Lie, here is the transcript of what Hincapie says and the video link below:

"Frankie was my mentor, and the first time I ever saw dope was in Frankies refrigerator. And thats when I realised, 'Well, fúck I have to dope'. So for me that really bothered me that all of a sudden he changed and he wasn't racing anymore and said 'Well, Lance is doping'. Well I mean, you taught me how to dope. How can you stand by when you know that you did what you did?
Lance never sat there and said, 'You're gonna dope or you're out or I'm firing you'. Thats just not true and they made it seem like that was the case"

From this video - http://youtu.be/ccSP-ERpY2E?t=1h24m13s

 

[mewmewmew13]

You're taking Hincapie out of context. Hincapie was attacking Andreu--not by claiming that Andreu was his supplier, though. Andreu, in his USADA affidavit said that in '95 he had "experimented" with EPO. Hincapie is flat out calling that a lie. Who you believe on that issue is a matter of personal preference, I guess. But no way is Hincapie implying that Andreu was his "pusher."

NOW you've got the point.
It's not the exact semantics but the point is that GH is attacking and SMEARING Frankie….
in Frankie's hometown newspaper..
at THIS point in time…

and not before..

 

[Merckx index]

You're taking Hincapie out of context. Hincapie was attacking Andreu--not by claiming that Andreu was his supplier, though. Andreu, in his USADA affidavit said that in '95 he had "experimented" with EPO. Hincapie is flat out calling that a lie. Who you believe on that issue is a matter of personal preference, I guess. But no way is Hincapie implying that Andreu was his "pusher."

Aren’t you missing the point? RR’s main contention is that this story is coming out to make LA look better relative to others he rode with. If some people read this article, and it appears to them that George is calling Frankie a pusher, hasn’t the article succeeded? One does not have to agree with RR on the pusher label to see that this article definitely paints Frankie in a bad light, and to the extent that Frankie was a key figure in bringing LA down, that can only help LA. If you don’t think that was the purpose of the article, what was? The only other motive that seems to be possible is just pure revenge, payback.

You, Brodeal and some others don’t seem to get that all this obsession with the trivia of exactly what George did or didn’t say is irrelevant. Yes, you might score some brownie points by showing that the Great RR is wrong, and some others who suddenly popped up here can shout in glee by claiming to have proven that Frankie is a liar, but all of that is a side issue. The main issue, which everyone ought to be able to agree on, was that the article was intended to paint Frankie in a bad light. Even if everything George said was the truth, we can legitimately ask, why is he doing this now?

 

[Race Radio]

But Race Radio now asserts that George has stated that Frankie was his EPO "supplier" and "pusher." Nowhere in the Free Press report does George claim that Frankie supplied him with EPO. Race Radio has yet to provide a link where George claims that Frankie supplied him with EPO.

Page 70 of the 1st edition of Wheelmen. George is very clear, Frankie brought EPO in Switzerland for him and others. This is a lie designed to smear Frankie. George is a good guy, I bet he feels badly for inventing this

If you actually read my posts you would know that

 

[BroDeal]

You, Brodeal and some others don’t seem to get that all this obsession with the trivia of exactly what George did or didn’t say is irrelevant. Yes, you might score some brownie points by showing that the Great RR is wrong, and some others who suddenly popped up here can shout in glee by claiming to have proven that Frankie is a liar, but all of that is a side issue. The main issue, which everyone ought to be able to agree on, was that the article was intended to paint Frankie in a bad light. Even if everything George said was the truth, we can legitimately ask, why is he doing this now?

You will have to take this with a big grain of salt because according to RR I am taking orders from Armstrong. *snicker*

RR's intent is to smear Hincapie and to make sure no one else dares to tell inconvenient truths. What actually happened and what was actually said does not matter to him. He has demonstrated that time and time again on this matter.

The truth is the truth. We don't need RR telling us that it cannot be told because it casts someone in a more realistic light than the hagiography he has constructed.

 

[Race Radio]

The truth is the truth.

Yup, which is why I have provided links, citations, and quotes to support what I have written and you have provided.......nothing.

*snicker*

UCIOverlord called, he says stop using his lines

 

[Granville57]

*snicker*

I believe the correct term is *chuckle*

 

[Granville57]

Anywho...

I suppose most of this debate should be in the Hincapie thread, but has anyone asked George directly when the first time was that he used any performance-enhancing drugs?

His affidavit, like all the others, is deliberately incomplete and at times quite vague. He admits to receiving "vitamin" injections as early as 1992 by Angus Fraser and again in 1994 by the Motorola team's "Belgian massage therapist."

He says nothing, that I have read, about any specific PEDs, whatsoever, prior to his prom dress being torn off in front of Frankie's fridge. I hope someone presses him on this point.

 

[Merckx index]

RR's intent is to smear Hincapie and to make sure no one else dares to tell inconvenient truths. What actually happened and what was actually said does not matter to him. He has demonstrated that time and time again on this matter.

The truth is the truth. We don't need RR telling us that it cannot be told because it casts someone in a more realistic light than the hagiography he has constructed.

You didn’t answer my question. Let’s suppose for the sake of argument everything you have said on this matter is correct, even that RR is out to smear George. Even you, I presume, wouldn’t go so far as to say RR somehow orchestrated this DFP article as a way to show how sleazy George is. RR’s worst sin, even according to you, was to respond—not in some national publication with a huge audience, but only in a forum, that, according to you, is down mostly to its twelve apostles—negatively to George once the article came out. Period.

So I repeat, why now? Why is George airing his grievances at this time? For that matter, why come out with it at all? George has received his sanction, so has everyone else. What’s to be gained by this? Does he really think he or LA will look better if the awful truth comes out about some others? Doesn’t this smack of kindergarten ranting, he did worse than me? Is George really dumb enough to think he will look better if Frankie looks worse? Is LA dumb enough to think in the same way?

Seems ironic to me that so many people who kept protesting, it's all in the past, let's move on, now want to dig up the past further. I really don't see how the details of when Frankie began, who he talked to at that point, and so on, contribute to anything beyond what he already told USADA. Frankie himself said he felt just as guilty as others who doped more. If people are curious from a historical viewpoint, fine, but none of this is relevant evidence to LA's upcoming legal battles, which are about the only game in town now.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Merckx good post

I don't expect some others to see his point above the tantrums

 

[Race Radio]

So I repeat, why now? Why is George airing his grievances at this time?

I know the answer but this still is a good question.

Since the RD George has said little, most of it focused on Frankie

Wheelmen- Frankie was my supplier
Armstrong lie-Frankie showed me dope for the first time
DFP (Frankie's hometown newspaper)-Frankie is why I started doping

This is only the stuff that is gone public. It is clear George, and his buddies, have an agenda.

Wonder why he does not say anything about Ferrari, Marti, del Moral, or Celya? Guess he forgot about the almost a decade of doping he did with them.

 

[86TDFWinner]

I know the answer but this still is a good question.

Since the RD George has said little, most of it focused on Frankie

Wheelmen- Frankie was my supplier
Armstrong lie-Frankie showed me dope for the first time
DFP (Frankie's hometown newspaper)-Frankie is why I started doping

This is only the stuff that is gone public. It is clear George, and his buddies, have an agenda.

Wonder why he does not say anything about Ferrari, Marti, del Moral, or Celya? Guess he forgot about the almost a decade of doping he did with them.

Yep, Which I don't get. he's STILL on Wonderboys side it seems, he STILL doesn't realize he's been played, and is still being played by WB.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Big George first came across drugs in 95 - oink-flap-oink

Anywho...

I suppose most of this debate should be in the Hincapie thread, but has anyone asked George directly when the first time was that he used any performance-enhancing drugs?

His affidavit, like all the others, is deliberately incomplete and at times quite vague. He admits to receiving "vitamin" injections as early as 1992 by Angus Fraser and again in 1994 by the Motorola team's "Belgian massage therapist."

He says nothing, that I have read, about any specific PEDs, whatsoever, prior to his prom dress being torn off in front of Frankie's fridge. I hope someone presses him on this point.

Loving the "prom dress" metaphor. Let's keep on facts here (Oops !) Somewhere out there is the account that when Strock and Keiter get their case rolling, big George who was part of the Junior team in 1990 with Strock and Keitel, is the only one who does not jump on the bandwagon against Carmichael, Wenzel and Fraser. Well that would be obvious because George is now finishing an athletic career which will allow him to live in luxury for the rest of his life, provided he keeps the Omerta.
Gentleman George has had injections from Angus two years before he gets to the Olympics of 92 and he tries to tell us Angus squirts "I only thought they were vitamins" into his body. Now is big George suggesting he had the mind of a hamster all that time - "hell these guys sure do think I need a lot a vitamins - and there was me thinking if I ate an apple a day, I would be ok !"

Take a look here - I really like the article -
http://gazette.com/doping-questions-remain-of-springs-based-armstrong-coach/article/149946
This has "In 1984, Borysewicz coached the U.S. Olympic Cycling Team, which Carmichael was on. The team won a record nine medals, but a few months later Rolling Stone revealed that one-third of the riders had doped by injecting extra blood into their veins."
So that would put it that 6 years prior to the great Hincapie getting his first "vitamins", we have US cycling committing to institutionalised doping. [Was not Taylor Phinney's mum a cycling gold medalist in Borysewicz's team there - I bet she has lots of chats about the old times with Dede Barry - wasn't it good before all those nasty people showed up-Oh and of course TAylor's daddy got a medal there too - sooooo cute ! ]

I read Hincapie's affidavit and thought that sadly they were missing a trick. Certainly they have got Lance when I thought he had walked free three times before and the best shots had missed, but that whole period that created Lance is where it needed to go back to, and they let Big George off too easily.

Carmichael may well have been a useful decoy target & smokescreen, later in Lance's career, as Chris failed/elected not to keep up with the arms race and Ferrari could offer Lance the latest, but there is no way anyone could continue to work with a guy who carried around a hard briefcase full of syringes and potions and keep on injecting you and not fully understand what the score was.

Now, by USADA allowing big George's lie to gain roots, he can spin out the next lie, as so eloquently described by Granville. "I never saw drugs until 95, I was too busy watching all those pigs take off.

Some story that Borysewicz one. Is it true that Jan van Eijden twice tested positive ? And how about East German product Hieko Salzwedel - Australia first then GB. Any of our Australian contributors any idea on the nature of of the program he started there in 1990 that produced Matt White, Cadel Patrick Jonker and Kathy Watt ? Was "One week of madness in hot June" Stuart O'Grady another of his students ?

 

[elizab]

Loving the "prom dress" metaphor. Let's keep on facts here (Oops !) Somewhere out there is the account that when Strock and Keiter get their case rolling, big George who was part of the Junior team in 1990 with Strock and Keitel, is the only one who does not jump on the bandwagon against Carmichael, Wenzel and Fraser. Well that would be obvious because George is now finishing an athletic career which will allow him to live in luxury for the rest of his life, provided he keeps the Omerta.
Gentleman George has had injections from Angus two years before he gets to the Olympics of 92 and he tries to tell us Angus squirts "I only thought they were vitamins" into his body. Now is big George suggesting he had the mind of a hamster all that time - "hell these guys sure do think I need a lot a vitamins - and there was me thinking if I ate an apple a day, I would be ok !"

Take a look here - I really like the article -
http://gazette.com/doping-questions-remain-of-springs-based-armstrong-coach/article/149946
This has "In 1984, Borysewicz coached the U.S. Olympic Cycling Team, which Carmichael was on. The team won a record nine medals, but a few months later Rolling Stone revealed that one-third of the riders had doped by injecting extra blood into their veins."
So that would put it that 6 years prior to the great Hincapie getting his first "vitamins", we have US cycling committing to institutionalised doping. [Was not Taylor Phinney's mum a cycling gold medalist in Borysewicz's team there - I bet she has lots of chats about the old times with Dede Barry - wasn't it good before all those nasty people showed up-Oh and of course TAylor's daddy got a medal there too - sooooo cute ! ]

I read Hincapie's affidavit and thought that sadly they were missing a trick. Certainly they have got Lance when I thought he had walked free three times before and the best shots had missed, but that whole period that created Lance is where it needed to go back to, and they let Big George off too easily.

Carmichael may well have been a useful decoy target & smokescreen, later in Lance's career, as Chris failed/elected not to keep up with the arms race and Ferrari could offer Lance the latest, but there is no way anyone could continue to work with a guy who carried around a hard briefcase full of syringes and potions and keep on injecting you and not fully understand what the score was.

Now, by USADA allowing big George's lie to gain roots, he can spin out the next lie, as so eloquently described by Granville. "I never saw drugs until 95, I was too busy watching all those pigs take off.

Some story that Borysewicz one. Is it true that Jan van Eijden twice tested positive ? And how about East German product Hieko Salzwedel - Australia first then GB. Any of our Australian contributors any idea on the nature of of the program he started there in 1990 that produced Matt White, Cadel Patrick Jonker and Kathy Watt ? Was "One week of madness in hot June" Stuart O'Grady another of his students ?

Excellent post. Hincapie and Carmichael are doing a gran fondo in California in April: http://bottegagranfondo.com/special-guests/#thecyclist Any wonder George won't say boo about Carmichael? Look at Carmichael's bio - not one mention of his association (frontman for Ferrari) with armstrong. No one's pressed George on anything. I know he's sweating it out. Funny how wonderboy claimed he had no idea why George talked to that reporter. (http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/17/my-call-with-lance/) How did George even know she was writing an article?

 

[Race Radio]

Excellent post. Hincapie and Carmichael are doing a gran fondo in California in April: http://bottegagranfondo.com/special-guests/#thecyclist Any wonder George won't say boo about Carmichael? Look at Carmichael's bio - not one mention of his association (frontman for Ferrari) with armstrong. No one's pressed George on anything. I know he's sweating it out. Funny how wonderboy claimed he had no idea why George talked to that reporter. (http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/17/my-call-with-lance/) How did George even know she was writing an article?

Maybe Frankie should ride a Gran Fondo with George? Then maybe George will finally start talking about Ferrari.

Nobody is pressing George on anything, but George is clearly pressing an agenda. Since the Reasoned Decision George's limited interaction with journalists have focused on one thing, painting Frankie as a pusher.

Looking forward to when he changes his target to Travis. He will suddenly forget that he told people he was never offered a deal, testified willingly, and suddenly start spewing a fable about being waterboarded into turning on his good buddy.

 

[Maxiton]

Aren’t you missing the point? RR’s main contention is that this story is coming out to make LA look better relative to others he rode with. If some people read this article, and it appears to them that George is calling Frankie a pusher, hasn’t the article succeeded? One does not have to agree with RR on the pusher label to see that this article definitely paints Frankie in a bad light, and to the extent that Frankie was a key figure in bringing LA down, that can only help LA. If you don’t think that was the purpose of the article, what was? The only other motive that seems to be possible is just pure revenge, payback.

You, Brodeal and some others don’t seem to get that all this obsession with the trivia of exactly what George did or didn’t say is irrelevant. Yes, you might score some brownie points by showing that the Great RR is wrong, and some others who suddenly popped up here can shout in glee by claiming to have proven that Frankie is a liar, but all of that is a side issue. The main issue, which everyone ought to be able to agree on, was that the article was intended to paint Frankie in a bad light. Even if everything George said was the truth, we can legitimately ask, why is he doing this now?

A central contention of the qui tam case is that Armstrong was ringleader of doping on the team - it's primary originator and proponent. If it can be established in the press that doping on the team preceded Armstrong, and moreover that its main proponent was Frankie - a key witness against Armstrong - won't that have the effect of greatly strengthening the Armstrong side, thus diluting the case against him (as well as any federal cases that might follow)?