Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[jens_attacks]

Riis, thick in 1996? I would hate to be your girlfriend

very large shoulders give this impression. but yes cecchini made him very skinny

 

[RetroActive]

somehow, i contest the qualifier, were. not somehow, not some reason, it is one intuitive appreciate that this is not past tense.

were, this is what JV would like us to believe.

my hat.

I can only speak to what I saw then, as an amateur, no idea what the scene is like now other than what I read. I find it hilarious that all these confessions (they're funny in numerous ways actually) imply that they only started doping after they turned pro. In the early nineties there were plenty of amateurs (read virtually all) that were doping to turn pro.

 

[gooner]

Will Lance settle?

Vanessa O'Connell ‏@VanessaOConnell 15 mins
Armstrong set to be deposed, under oath, Thurs in Dallas, unless he settles w SCA Promotions. It seeks at least $12 m.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Will Lance settle?

What happened the last time he was "under oath" at SCA? Lies. Where are the perjury charges? Today's lesson, lie, lie, lie, lie is okay "under oath."

What happens this time when Lance Armstrong is "under oath?" Lies.

If we get a copy of the deposition, it should be fun reading.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

What happens this time when Lance Armstrong is "under oath?" Lies.

If we get a copy of the deposition, it should be fun reading.

Oh yeah. This could be interesting indeed.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Oh yeah. This could be interesting indeed.

If the bag don't fit, you must aquitt.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

If the bag don't fit, you must aquitt.

Exhibit A Positive.

 

[WinterRider]

Why would Lance need to conceal anything? They already had a doping program in place when he arrived, and "many" were using EPO as early as 1993.

I don't know at what point riders became concerned about the health risks of EPO. But perhaps they were already concerned about it in 93.

If this were the case, Lance may have been experimenting in private with Hendershot, and once he felt he had it working and had enough negative racing experience accumulating, 95 was the time to convince his team to get on the program so he could get the support he needed.

We don't yet have a "who did what" list from hendershot. Only that EPO was in use by the team, and that not everyone in the team was on the program.

It is quite possible that key future players (Hincapie, Andreu, Livingston) were not yet on the full program in 93, while Lance had already grabbed the ring.

 

[WinterRider]

Good post, it highlights much of the reason why there is confusion when Lance's EPO use started. While the usual stalkers will cry "Bias" or "Hidden Agenda" the simple fact is there is not much to support EPO use in 93. Certainly possible. Highly likely they were using all kinds of other stuff.

Not to take the thread on too much of a tangent but I wonder if Phil Anderson, Armstrong's mentor, is a bit concern about the book? If I were him I would be

RR, Macur seems to have two independent sources on Lance's early career. Hendershot and the deceased Neal. Why do you doubt her interpretation of their testimonies? If it were one witness I would give you more leeway with your doubts, but given there are two witnesses it seems highly likely that she has the goods.

I wonder if this is leftovers from your reading of the account of Frankie offering bribes malarky. By the way, Macur says this allegedly took place, and I presumed at the time if was some third party that alleged it (presumably someone one of the riders related the incident to). Perhaps this info also comes from one of Neal or Hendershot, or perhaps there are even more as of yet unknown sources.

I for one am looking forward to reading the book now.

 

[Hugh Januss]

very large shoulders give this impression. but yes cecchini made him very skinny

And yet when compared to Froome he is a fat tub of goo.

 

[WinterRider]

While we might question the accuracy of this 1992 timeline, I think everyone agrees that he was using EPO by 1995. This IIRC was the way it was reported in From Lance to Landis. But this still takes us back to the question of why the big improvement post cancer. Several people here have argued that Ferrari was a key difference. This argument, though, seems to require a belief that without a doctor’s guidance, riders had no idea what they were doing, and wouldn’t get much benefit. Yet as documented on Science of Sports, studies administering EPO to non-elite athletes show an enormous effect, e.g., a 13% increase in peak power and a > 50% increase in time to exhaustion.

No doubt by the time of the study (2007) you didn’t have to know Ferrari to have access to some information on how best to apply EPO. But the dosing schedule usedwasn’t particularly complicated: the subjects received EPO every other day for two weeks, then once weekly for ten weeks. I really wonder how much difference Dr. OJ made. I can see him making the difference between, say, Ulle beating Armstrong and Ulle finishing second, but the difference between Armstrong pre- and post-cancer? Seems like a stretch.

Hoo boy, check out this:

Most likely, is that Ferrari's big difference was in toning down LA's drug intake. Lance seems to have been willing to take anything to win, and it is quite possible that he took too much of the wrong thing at the wrong time to maximize performance.

We have Hendershot admitting to mixing up concoctions of whatever he could think of, testing them on himself, and using his perceived heart rate to fine tune!

Going from that to Ferrari was probably a major step forward in performance, and is sufficient in my mind to explain the performance turn around. There may well have been other factors as well, but Ferrari is enough in my opinion to explain the change. In effect he went from amateur doping to professional doping.

Don't forget he was second in LBL in 94, so he clearly had some climbing legs in the early years.

 

[red_flanders]

We don't yet have a "who did what" list from hendershot. Only that EPO was in use by the team, and that not everyone in the team was on the program.

It is quite possible that key future players (Hincapie, Andreu, Livingston) were not yet on the full program in 93, while Lance had already grabbed the ring.

I think we do have enough of a "who did what" list to answer the EPO question with regard to Armstrong.

Then he would leave with bags filled with the blood booster EPO, human growth hormone, blood thinners, amphetamines, cortisone, painkillers and testosterone, a particularly popular drug he’d hand to riders “like candy.”

By 1993, Armstrong was using all of those substances, as did many riders on the team, Hendershot said.

...

Although Hendershot said he never administered EPO or growth hormone to Armstrong, he did give them to other riders on the team and said he was aware that Armstrong was using those drugs.

So we can dispute the claim as it contradicts other testimonies, but the claim lays out a clear list of drugs and clearly identifies Armstrong as taking all of them.

 

[red_flanders]

We have Hendershot admitting to mixing up concoctions of whatever he could think of, testing them on himself, and using his perceived heart rate to fine tune!

Going from that to Ferrari was probably a major step forward in performance, and is sufficient in my mind to explain the performance turn around. There may well have been other factors as well, but Ferrari is enough in my opinion to explain the change. In effect he went from amateur doping to professional doping.

I think this is a pretty reasonable speculation into what may have happened.

 

[jens_attacks]

If this were the case, Lance may have been experimenting in private with Hendershot, and once he felt he had it working and had enough negative racing experience accumulating, 95 was the time to convince his team to get on the program so he could get the support he needed.

impossible. liege '94 all top 20 i guess was already 55+ hematocrit and epo was working at its finest just like 1995 and 1996 peak years. san sebastian was the same.
lance's mentality was not that of a man who waits. lance for sure didn't wait 2 years to see his asz spanked day in and day out. as soon as he heard of it, he tried imo. won't surprise me to hear he was one of the first in 1993. a true pioneer.
because of his big lie 2009 and the triathlons after, you can't take for truth much of his stories.
he is a big champ for me, well deserved 7 times tour de france winner but always gonna have zero credibility regarding the full truth


seems like i've read it wrong sorry yes the whole team in 1995 seems reasonable. but lance(how i understood it at first read) no way

 

[WinterRider]

I think we do have enough of a "who did what" list to answer the EPO question with regard to Armstrong.



So we can dispute the claim as it contradicts other testimonies, but the claim lays out a clear list of drugs and clearly identifies Armstrong as taking all of them.

My point is we have a quote saying Armstrong was using all of these, but no direct statements about what Swart, Hincapie, Andreu, or Livingston were using and when.

So even if LA is using everything in 93, it's quite possible that in 95 these other key players weren't yet on EPO, which leads to the post SMR pep talk to get them all on the program.

 

[WinterRider]

NB. may be apocyphal.

but in 98 Vuelta he bragged that he had a horse steroid that no one else did. And obiously, it would not show up on the assay of the mass spec gas chromatograph (and folks already have told me that i am mistaking my biological testing technology)

but still holds true. more the metaphor. It did not show up.

I think in the 98 Vuelta, it allowed Ferrari to see how Armstrong responded over three weeks, and to tweek crit, haemoglobin, and the other O2 parameters.

Folks are looking at the Rasmussen Mexico training camp nee Dolomiti.

The preparation doping. And increasing the threshold.

That is only half of the function.

Folks, look at recovery doping. RECOVERY doping.

Motoman and recovery doping is where its at.

I would like to enter into evidence, Raimondas Rumsas, and Edita Rumsas.

If you neutralise the 2003 Tour for the Team timetrial. Rumsas beats Beloki.

Have a think for a second, the advantages that Armstrong had up his sleeve on Rumsas. But Rumsas did have some decent recovery support thanks to Edita, and he could have managed to negate Beloki's Manalo Saiz recovery doping advantage.

And have an advantage over the field, wrt recovery doping.

After Festina, recovery doping became a game of subterfuge, and Armstrong could get an enormous advantage by capturing the administration of the sport, to give him a wide berth, while sending Edita and Remi di Gregorio and Christiano Moreno and everyone else off to jail.

So there has been a lot of talk about the performance increase in Lance that catapulted him to the top, but it could just as easily have been a performance decrease by everyone else.

His GT potential didn't show until the Vuelta post Festina. And we know in 99 that half of the positive tests (for EPO) were Lance's. If we believe that he had political coverage to dope (due to missed cancer results), combined with everyone else dialing it back several notches, this could also in and of itself explain the performance boost.

 

[red_flanders]

My point is we have a quote saying Armstrong was using all of these, but no direct statements about what Swart, Hincapie, Andreu, or Livingston were using and when.

So even if LA is using everything in 93, it's quite possible that in 95 these other key players weren't yet on EPO, which leads to the post SMR pep talk to get them all on the program.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I think you have some pretty interesting thoughts on all this.

 

[Race Radio]

RR, Macur seems to have two independent sources on Lance's early career. Hendershot and the deceased Neal. Why do you doubt her interpretation of their testimonies? If it were one witness I would give you more leeway with your doubts, but given there are two witnesses it seems highly likely that she has the goods.

I wonder if this is leftovers from your reading of the account of Frankie offering bribes malarky. By the way, Macur says this allegedly took place, and I presumed at the time if was some third party that alleged it (presumably someone one of the riders related the incident to). Perhaps this info also comes from one of Neal or Hendershot, or perhaps there are even more as of yet unknown sources.

I for one am looking forward to reading the book now.

How was the fact that two participants denied the offer of $50k took place "Malarky"? You believed an un-known source over 2 named sources?

Could you show me the part where Neil says Lance used EPO in 93? Thanks.

As I wrote several times, but you clearly ignored, I think it is possible that Juliet has additional information in her book in that may support the claim he used EPO in 93 but for now we do not have that. We have one sentence that is open to interpretation.

 

[RetroActive]

I have to wonder how much Armstrong learned during his post cancer (surgery) treatment about proper drug applications and procedures. Extremely cynical but oh well.

 

[MarkvW]

My point is we have a quote saying Armstrong was using all of these, but no direct statements about what Swart, Hincapie, Andreu, or Livingston were using and when.

So even if LA is using everything in 93, it's quite possible that in 95 these other key players weren't yet on EPO, which leads to the post SMR pep talk to get them all on the program.

Hard to believe Lance wasn't using EPO as soon as he could get his hands on it. If you're going whole hog with Hendershot's ultra-reckless medicine, then why not take the most potent stuff?

Easy to believe that Lance wasn't sharing dope or dope info with his teammates. I can't imagine him voluntarily giving his teammates an opportunity that might result in them outperforming him.

 

[Race Radio]

My point is we have a quote saying Armstrong was using all of these, but no direct statements about what Swart, Hincapie, Andreu, or Livingston were using and when.

It actually claims multiple members of the team were using that list, not just lance.

If true I wonder who those other riders were? Phil Anderson? Bauer?

 

[jens_attacks]

Hard to believe Lance wasn't using EPO as soon as he could get his hands on it. If you're going whole hog with Hendershot's ultra-reckless medicine, then why not take the most potent stuff?

Easy to believe that Lance wasn't sharing dope or dope info with his teammates. I can't imagine him voluntarily giving his teammates an opportunity that might result in them outperforming him.

absolutely. he was pedal to the metal as soon as he raced competitive. a cannibal just like merckx. especially in the magical pharmaceutical aspect.

 

[MarkvW]

absolutely. he was pedal to the metal as soon as he raced competitive. a cannibal just like merckx. especially in the magical pharmaceutical aspect.

Merckx knew the good doping doctors, too. Once he hooked Lance up with Ferrari, history was made.

 

[WinterRider]

How was the fact that two participants denied the offer of $50k took place "Malarky"? You believed an un-known source over 2 named sources?

Could you show me the part where Neil says Lance used EPO in 93? Thanks.

As I wrote several times, but you clearly ignored, I think it is possible that Juliet has additional information in her book in that may support the claim he used EPO in 93 but for now we do not have that. We have one sentence that is open to interpretation.

From the article:

Then he would leave with bags filled with the blood booster EPO, human growth hormone, blood thinners, amphetamines, cortisone, painkillers and testosterone, a particularly popular drug he’d hand to riders “like candy.”

By 1993, Armstrong was using all of those substances, as did many riders on the team, Hendershot said. He remembered Armstrong’s attitude as being, “This is the stuff I take, this is part of what I do,” and Armstrong joined the team’s program without hesitation because everyone else seemed to be doing it.



In addition we know that she has had apparently exclusive access to many hours of tape from the deceased Neil which according to the article implicate LA in doping earlier than LA has admitted. The details are not in the article, but my question to you RR was given she has these two sources, why is your first inclination to disbelieve her? Perhaps once the book is released the details will be flimsy and not support what is in the NYT article, but given everything we know I just can't see why she would have to make this stuff up if there were not supporting evidence.

As for the "malarky" to do with the bribe. I don't know what I believe. But I do know you've been having a go at Macur on this, and that your main evidence is that the two involved have denied it ever happened. But to be frank that is meaningless to me since if it did happen, there are plenty of reasons why they might deny. As for an "unnamed source", and whether it is credible, I've no idea what the truth is, but certainly do lend more credence to Juliet Macur than ANYONE who has had success in the field of pro cycling. I've no axe to grind, I like the Andreus and I do agree that Hincapie and LA are having a go at them, but that does not preclude the story about the bribe being true. Hopefully the details of this will be in the book as well.

I do ponder though, and I already stated this, if this story is coloring your reflection on Macur's latest excerpt from her book.

So, is it? Or is your unwillingness to beleive LA was on EPO in 93 coming from somewhere else? If so I'd like to know what your reasoning is as I've read a lot of great information from you over the past 6 years, but I can't personally recall anything that would make me doubt the veracity of these latest allegations.

 

[WinterRider]

It actually claims multiple members of the team were using that list, not just lance.

If true I wonder who those other riders were? Phil Anderson? Bauer?

Like I said, we don't have the roll call yet. I really hope the details are in the book, but part of me expects all of these to be excluded, and the only specific statements to be about Lance to be included in the book.

I really hope I'm wrong on this.