Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[D-Queued]

The appeal makes no legal sense whatsoever--and any responsible lawyer would have told Lance that. It is just throwing money away on lawyers. This appeal isn't just a little bit stupid. It's mind-bogglingly stupid. It's so stupid, I can't say how stupid it is.

Is Lance going scorched-earth on his creditors? Maybe he isn't anywhere near as wealthy as we think. Maybe he figures he might as well burn up his money on attorney fees rather than pay off his creditors?

I cannot speak for the lawyers, and don't know what you mean by legal sense, but it makes perfect sense if they are at the brink of a settlement - which they almost certainly are.

Filing such an appeal would be something I would encourage my legal team to do if I were really close to an agreement in such an important negotiation, but where I/we couldn't be certain that such an agreement would be achieved by the deadline. In fact, I would expect my legal team to advise me to do so.

This wouldn't be the typical try and put everything off forever, but rather to assure success.

Presumably: Lance does not want to testify

Presumably: Lance will lose a bunch whether he testifies or not

Presumably: It is in SCA's interests to get money sooner than later (lower legal costs, higher certainty)

Then, it is in everyone's interests to get this deal now - and before any further deposition.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

I cannot speak for the lawyers, and don't know what you mean by legal sense, but it makes perfect sense if they are at the brink of a settlement - which they almost certainly are.

Filing such an appeal would be something I would encourage my legal team to do if I were really close to an agreement in such an important negotiation, but where I/we couldn't be certain that such an agreement would be achieved by the deadline. In fact, I would expect my legal team to advise me to do so.

This wouldn't be the typical try and put everything off forever, but rather to assure success.

Presumably: Lance does not want to testify

Presumably: Lance will lose a bunch whether he testifies or not

Presumably: It is in SCA's interests to get money sooner than later (lower legal costs, higher certainty)

Then, it is in everyone's interests to get this deal now - and before any further deposition.

Dave.

Lance's appeal presents no credible threat to the arbitration process. More importantly, the appeal provides no inherent stay of the arbitration process.

Lance has to convince a Texas Appeals Court to halt an arbitration process. He has a very high burden. He has to show not just that he's entitled to win, but he also has to show that he is somehow irreparably harmed by having to go through the arbitration process (a process that he agreed to). No way can he make that burden.

The Appeals Court isn't going to cut Lance a break on this one--no chance. It would make very bad law for big business AND would make hugely more work for the Courts because anybody (like consumers) could avoid cheap arbitration and move their cases easily into expensive Court.

SCA knows this. Lance is just making an empty gesture.

 

[D-Queued]

Lance's appeal presents no credible threat to the arbitration process. More importantly, the appeal provides no inherent stay of the arbitration process.

Lance has to convince a Texas Appeals Court to halt an arbitration process. He has a very high burden. He has to show not just that he's entitled to win, but he also has to show that he is somehow irreparably harmed by having to go through the arbitration process (a process that he agreed to). No way can he make that burden.

The Appeals Court isn't going to cut Lance a break on this one--no chance. It would make very bad law for big business AND would make hugely more work for the Courts because anybody (like consumers) could avoid cheap arbitration and move their cases easily into expensive Court.

SCA knows this. Lance is just making an empty gesture.

You could be right.

I'm just saying that it actually makes sense - for Lance - and that it does not necessarily represent an attempt to scuttle the process. On the contrary. It could represent that we are very, very close.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You could be right.

I'm just saying that it actually makes sense - for Lance - and that it does not necessarily represent an attempt to scuttle the process. On the contrary. It could represent that we are very, very close.

Dave.

What are the chances they are haggling over a press statement with Armstrong as being vindicated, victorious? I say 90%

In general, your reasoning is plausible. But Wonderboy is "a fighter." He should fight by being deposed again. We know it won't end in perjury sanctions, so why not?

 

[Race Radio]

Over the last few weeks a handful have posters have attacked me for writing

-Lance is in revenge mode and is actively trying to smear Betsy, Frankie, and Greg
-George has gone along with this, lying that Frankie taught him how to dope and that he had never seen dope until he saw EPO in Frankie fridge
-That George would apologize for smearing Frankie
-That lance did not start using EPO in 93
-That Frankie did not offer Scott $50k to throw a race.

Now that the book is out it is clear I was right. No agenda, No bias, No blah blah.

I just wanted to say no need for an apology. We are cool

 

[D-Queued]

Over the last few weeks a handful have posters have attacked me for writing

-Lance is in revenge mode and is actively trying to smear Betsy, Frankie, and Greg
-George has gone along with this, lying that Frankie taught him how to dope and that he had never seen dope until he saw EPO in Frankie fridge
-That George would apologize for smearing Frankie
-That lance did not start using EPO in 93
-That Frankie did not offer Scott $50k to throw a race.

Now that the book is out it is clear I was right. No agenda, No bias, No blah blah.

I just wanted to say no need for an apology. We are cool

Well, I haven't argued with you.

BUT, allow me to apologize in advance.

I am not convinced he didn't start EPO early and possibly had started by '93.

Finding a definitive answer to this would probably require that Lance actually tell the truth, though. Hell isn't about to freeze over either.

Just because you take all the right doping substance doesn't mean you dope correctly. Moreover, the re-introduction and, especially, the increased sophistication of blood doping - including timeliness of delivery - would have further separated sophisticated from unsophisticated.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

I would be surprised in Armstrong was not on epo in '93. He probably didn't know how to get the best from it but he seems the kind of guy always looking for the newest best PED.

 

[MarkvW]

You could be right.

I'm just saying that it actually makes sense - for Lance - and that it does not necessarily represent an attempt to scuttle the process. On the contrary. It could represent that we are very, very close.

Dave.

I don't see it as an attempt to scuttle a settlement, either. All kind of seemingly harsh tactics get played, and the lawyers negotiate on.

It might be an indication that Lance perceives SCA as being unyielding, though.

 

[skidmark]

I'm not speaking for liar Lance and disingenuous George but I can tell you Frankie's not lying. He said he had no idea John was making these concoctions back in the motorola day. As with The Secret Race I'm sure we'll learn stuff from Juliet's book we/Frankie had no idea about until we read about it.

If I'm going to cheat on Frankie and I know you'd be adamantly against it, would I tell you? Lance knew where Frankie stood, hence, the lack of openness wrt to lance with frankie. Remember when Frankie stated in his deposition that he told lance he was nuts when lance was bragging about all the pills he was taking at certain points in the race? Frankie telling lance no how many times to seeing ferrari? the rest is history...

As a cycling fan who has no connections to the inside of the sport, I feel like there's a certain level of cynicism that seeps in, that makes it hard to tell what kind of diversity there is in the pro ranks with regards to who wants to dope and who doesn't. Especially in the age where it was cavalier, and where it was hard to have a job without it. So, as a casual internet commentator/cycling fan, it's easy to be cynical and occasionally think 'well maybe Frankie Andreu was like the rest of them (or at least more than he has said), and maybe he hid his knowledge from his wife because he knew she'd kill him if she found out'. Sometimes when I think of that era I'm pretty much willing to believe anything, because everything I can think of that was bad kind of happened then.

That said, you've always conducted yourself with an obvious and incredible amount of integrity, and I feel like you have more credibility than nearly anyone I've seen comment on cycling in the 90s. So if you say that the person you likely know best in the world is not hiding anything, that's good to hear, and that's good enough for me.

But, as you probably already know from being immersed in this world for a long time, there are lots of folks who are more cynical than that. So I'm sure thoughts are going through everyone's mind as this stuff is dredged up again and again that anybody could be holding things back, and it's hard to really know everything about what went on. That'll probably put Frankie in the cross fire now and then; but the good thing about these things being dredged up is that the truth usually prevails, if by nothing else, by virtue of being more consistent than all the made-up, cover-up crap.

 

[elizab]

Over the last few weeks a handful have posters have attacked me for writing

-Lance is in revenge mode and is actively trying to smear Betsy, Frankie, and Greg
-George has gone along with this, lying that Frankie taught him how to dope and that he had never seen dope until he saw EPO in Frankie fridge
-That George would apologize for smearing Frankie
-That lance did not start using EPO in 93
-That Frankie did not offer Scott $50k to throw a race.

Now that the book is out it is clear I was right. No agenda, No bias, No blah blah.

I just wanted to say no need for an apology. We are cool

- Lance said in her book that he still hates me.
- George was doping before he even met Frankie
- George called Frankie the day the Free Press article came out and apologized for going on camera for Gibney and for talking to the Free Press reporter. He said saying that Frankie "teaching him how to dope" was NOT accurate. He wanted to talk to Frankie some more but Frankie declined for now citing lance putting him up to his smearing. I asked George to go public with his apology but he has yet to respond to me.
- Lance started doping before he became a pro cyclist I believe
- Scott McKinley told me as well that the "alleged" 50K to throw a race incident simply didn't happen with or without Frankie. Frankie said the same thing. Both deny it.

RR, saw your tweet "Tim Herman...legal genius" and you had me laughing out loud.

 

[elizab]

As a cycling fan who has no connections to the inside of the sport, I feel like there's a certain level of cynicism that seeps in, that makes it hard to tell what kind of diversity there is in the pro ranks with regards to who wants to dope and who doesn't. Especially in the age where it was cavalier, and where it was hard to have a job without it. So, as a casual internet commentator/cycling fan, it's easy to be cynical and occasionally think 'well maybe Frankie Andreu was like the rest of them (or at least more than he has said), and maybe he hid his knowledge from his wife because he knew she'd kill him if she found out'. Sometimes when I think of that era I'm pretty much willing to believe anything, because everything I can think of that was bad kind of happened then.

That said, you've always conducted yourself with an obvious and incredible amount of integrity, and I feel like you have more credibility than nearly anyone I've seen comment on cycling in the 90s. So if you say that the person you likely know best in the world is not hiding anything, that's good to hear, and that's good enough for me.

But, as you probably already know from being immersed in this world for a long time, there are lots of folks who are more cynical than that. So I'm sure thoughts are going through everyone's mind as this stuff is dredged up again and again that anybody could be holding things back, and it's hard to really know everything about what went on. That'll probably put Frankie in the cross fire now and then; but the good thing about these things being dredged up is that the truth usually prevails, if by nothing else, by virtue of being more consistent than all the made-up, cover-up crap.

That's what stinks for everyone in the sport. Not everyone doped and of those who did not everyone was a junkie like Lance & George - the dope defined their careers. I trust Frankie to know that what he tells a federal agent won't be different than what he tells me. Frankie was a strong, good rider who competed the vast majority of his career clean. He didn't become a junkie and his career ended because of it.

 

[TexPat]

That's what stinks for everyone in the sport. Not everyone doped and of those who did not everyone was a junkie like Lance & George - the dope defined their careers. I trust Frankie enough to know that what he tells a federal agent won't be different than what he tells me. Frankie was a strong, good rider who competed the vast majority of his career clean. He didn't become a junkie and his career ended because of it.

That is correct, and needs repeating often.

 

[WinterRider]

Over the last few weeks a handful have posters have attacked me for writing

-Lance is in revenge mode and is actively trying to smear Betsy, Frankie, and Greg
-George has gone along with this, lying that Frankie taught him how to dope and that he had never seen dope until he saw EPO in Frankie fridge
-That George would apologize for smearing Frankie
-That lance did not start using EPO in 93
-That Frankie did not offer Scott $50k to throw a race.

Now that the book is out it is clear I was right. No agenda, No bias, No blah blah.

I just wanted to say no need for an apology. We are cool

But there are versions of the book out there that include Frankie in the bribe. What we don't know is where Juliet got that from.

Also we do not have clarification on when Lance started EPO. We have lance's word against a statement of unknown clarity from Hendershot. Put this against the fact that Lance was able to be competative in at least the 93 worlds and 94 LBL against a peloton awash in EPO and it seems at least plausible, possibly even likely, that EPO was part of the picture in 93/94.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He said saying that Frankie "teaching him how to dope" was NOT accurate. He wanted to talk to Frankie some more but Frankie declined for now citing lance putting him up to his smearing. I asked George to go public with his apology but he has yet to respond to me.

Just in case anyone missed it, pages and pages (!!) of Detroit Free Press controversy can be summarized as another Armstrong ploy.

 

[andy1234]

Over the last few weeks a handful have posters have attacked me for writing

-Lance is in revenge mode and is actively trying to smear Betsy, Frankie, and Greg
-George has gone along with this, lying that Frankie taught him how to dope and that he had never seen dope until he saw EPO in Frankie fridge
-That George would apologize for smearing Frankie
-That lance did not start using EPO in 93
-That Frankie did not offer Scott $50k to throw a race.

Now that the book is out it is clear I was right. No agenda, No bias, No blah blah.

I just wanted to say no need for an apology. We are cool

Changing your mind is cool too.

From the NYT article

Worlds on EPO. Yup.

One more troll talking point dies

Frankie and Scotts denial, still has no more proof than the original accusation itself.
Don't let these things get in the way of your back slapping though.....

 

[RownhamHill]

You are being too gentle. There's no confusion. As long as the story fits the narrative, "I'm the world's greatest cyclist, better than Lemond." It's all true. If there are conflicting accounts, it's your problem you don't understand.

It's an example of English euphemism.

 

[Race Radio]

Changing your mind is cool too.

It is good of you to change your mind and admit that I was expressing fact, not bias or an agenda.

 

[D-Queued]

Changing your mind is cool too.

From the NYT article



Worlds on EPO. Yup.

One more troll talking point dies

I dunno.

It is really hard to believe that he didn't use EPO at/in advance of the Worlds.

Indurain was unbeatable in anything approximating a TT.

If Indurain was benefitting from EPO it is hard to believe you could simply attack him like that without EPO.

Dave.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I have some catching up to do…
still trying to figure out what Herman is up to…straw grabbing it seems..

one of the first things I learned when I started rock climbing was "never grab vegetation …."

 

[DirtyWorks]

But there are versions of the book out there that include Frankie in the bribe. What we don't know is where Juliet got that from.

My guess is Lance and I don't think I'm the first one to suggest it.

Also we do not have clarification on when Lance started EPO.

Why does it matter when a single rider started using EPO? There are much bigger unknowns.

We have lance's word

Lance's word cannot be relied upon.

Put this against the fact that Lance was able to be competative in at least the 93 worlds and 94 LBL against a peloton awash in EPO and it seems at least plausible, possibly even likely, that EPO was part of the picture in 93/94.

It was extremely likely (IMHO 100%) EPO was stealing podiums by 93, and very likely in 92. See Indurain and Chiappucci... By 1994, it's a given the peloton was using EPO.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It's an example of English euphemism.

Indeed, but I'm taking a page from the Armstrong playbook. Attack! Dominate!!

 

[mewmewmew13]

Frankie first tried it in 96 although it could've been 95. The one time trip to Switzerland (he's most positive it was once he went but will say could've been two at the most and FOR HIMSELF ONLY) was the only purchase he made. He only used epo definitely for the 99 Tour (stopping thereafter) and for a few other races (I have to read his affidavit for the usada report - it's all here: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Andreu+Frankie+Affidavit.pdf

He did get injected with epo by the team doctors during one of the Tours I think. the other injection was a something that del Moral refused to tell Frankie what it was. If he didn't take it in 99, he wouldn't start the next race day.

Does that answer your question?

very obliging of you Betsy

Netserk feels the need to be the forum's moral and content beacon..

 

[86TDFWinner]

Armstrong's lawyers filed an emergency appeal to stop him going under oath Thursday for the SCA case. They say lance telling the truth will cause him "Irreparable harm"

Amazing

Didn't I(we) say that before? we all know he won't testify, he'd bury himself, it wouldn't make sense for him to do this. This is his/lawyers last ditch efforts to keep hold of some $$$. The jig is up though, now they just need to pay to make it go away, which I believe will happen very soon.

Originally Posted by DirtyWorks View Post
You are being too gentle. There's no confusion. As long as the story fits the narrative, "I'm the world's greatest cyclist, better than Lemond." It's all true. If there are conflicting accounts, it's your problem you don't understand.

This. It's been Wonderboys MO throughout, won't change anytime soon, agree w/you here.

 

[86TDFWinner]

You are being too gentle. There's no confusion. As long as the story fits the narrative, "I'm the world's greatest cyclist, better than Lemond." It's all true. If there are conflicting accounts, it's your problem you don't understand.

This. It's been Wonderboys MO throughout, won't change anytime soon, agree w/you here.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Frankie first tried it in 96 although it could've been 95. The one time trip to Switzerland (he's most positive it was once he went but will say could've been two at the most and FOR HIMSELF ONLY) was the only purchase he made. He only used epo definitely for the 99 Tour (stopping thereafter) and for a few other races (I have to read his affidavit for the usada report - it's all here: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Andreu+Frankie+Affidavit.pdf

He did get injected with epo by the team doctors during one of the Tours I think. the other injection was a something that del Moral refused to tell Frankie what it was. If he didn't take it in 99, he wouldn't start the next race day.

Does that answer your question?

Thanks for the info...puts to bed MANY MANY insinuations here.