Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[BroDeal]

I
But for her testimony being compelled via subpoena you never would have heard her name mentioned. What don't you get about that? This fight was brought to her, not the other way around.

That is the myth to put it kindly, self serving propaganda to be more truthful. The reality is revealed in the deposition. Years were spent talking to journalists before SCA.

 

[Race Radio]

Years were spent talking to journalists before SCA.

And now telling the truth is spun as an evil thing.

Next up, Dr. Ferrari.......Misunderstood Genius.

 

[thehog]

Next up, Dr. Ferrari.......Misunderstood Genius.

There are many former Pros who clearly state Ferrari was and is a genius. Dope or no dope. He's a very smart man. He's is the one that turned the sport from feeling to numbers.

Even Vaughter's now has project Platypus based on Ferrari's concepts.

 

[aphronesis]

And now telling the truth is spun as an evil thing.

That's not what he said. The distortion level between what's been posted in past days (by those who don't swallow the new myth whole) and the knee jerk defenders is staggering.

Kids sitting in a circle whispering a phrase stay closer to the mark.

 

[Race Radio]

There are many former Pros who clearly state Ferrari was and is a genius. Dope or no dope. He's a very smart man. He's is the one that turned the sport from feeling to numbers.

Really? Link? Preferably someone from this century

 

[hfer07]

This. The hypocrisy in the post Armstrong world is deliciously entertaining. It is fun enough watching the Brits, in the fading light of the Empire, queue up to compete with each other over who has the tightest embrace of excuses long ago played out by U.S. Postal; but seeing the hater clique gleefully turning to the same tactics they decried Armstrong for using might be even more fun if the base motives wrapped in phony altruism were not so retching.

...But that's why SKY is as hated as much as LA & US Postal has been so.... It's because of the same bvllsh!t, the same tactics, the same dope regimen, the same PR ranting, the same EVERYTHING....

So you're suggesting LA should take credit for "extending" his BS legacy through another metamorphosis called SKY?

 

[MarkvW]

There are many former Pros who clearly state Ferrari was and is a genius. Dope or no dope. He's a very smart man. He's is the one that turned the sport from feeling to numbers.

Even Vaughter's now has project Platypus based on Ferrari's concepts.

Conconi was revolutionary. His disciples as well.

 

[thehog]

Conconi was revolutionary. His disciples as well.

Agreed. The power meter craze that we see today is based on those teachings. Ferrari is a genius. Sky would never admit it but the act they are following is all Conconi/Ferrari.

 

[Race Radio]

Agreed. The power meter craze that we see today is based on those teachings. Ferrari is a genius. Sky would never admit it but the act they are following is all Conconi/Ferrari.

Actually Ferrari's primary measurement for training is heart rate, not power. The top GC riders on Garmin the last several years have also focused more on heart rate, but they get their guidance from Andre van Diemen, LeMond's former coach.

Ferrari's talent comes in a syringe

 

[thehog]

Actually Ferrari's primary measurement for training is heart rate, not power.

Not sure what you're responding to, who's said anything about heart rate?

Ferrari's work is based on power assumptions and measurements for his riders. It's pivotal and very well known and still used today. You say he's not a genius, fair enough, your opinion.

Many today believe he is and use his methods. I think that's evidence enough of his work, although teams/riders wouldn't admit it.

I think you're barking up he wrong tree on this one.

 

[Race Radio]

Not sure what you're responding to

Clearly I am responding to this

The power meter craze that we see today is based on those teachings. Ferrari is a genius.

Again, the majority of Ferrari's training is based on heart rate, not power......oh, and dope. Lots and lots of drugs

 

[thehog]

Clearly I am responding to this
Again, the majority of Ferrari's training is based on heart rate, not power.

Not following. I thought you said his talent came from a syringe?

Project Platypus at Garmin is indicative enough of the importance of power readings per race results.

Sky have shown the importance & just about all of their work based on power.

It would be a good thread, 'the evolution of power meters and training'. Ferrari would be well documented.

Feel free to add your heart rate elements to that thread. I'm sure you have links.

 

[sittingbison]

..the majority of Ferrari's training is based on.....dope. Lots and lots of drugs

good post hog

now move along please

cheers
bison

 

[yespatterns]

The advent of new analytical technology since"the bad old days" might make the early benchmarks more expansive. Evolution of what's measurable, and quantifiable. Just my 0.02. Evolution.

 

[D-Queued]

This. The hypocrisy in the post Armstrong world is deliciously entertaining. ...

You make a good point wrt Sky, but aside from a few Clinic holdouts, which are always to be expected, does anyone really believe that they are clean?

I am afraid you will be further disappointed, though, with how the drubbing of Lance will continue into the foreseeable future. And, how ordinary people like housewives from Detroit, get more than 15 minutes of fame for the role that they played.

There are many, many wounds yet to heal.

On that point, an interesting thing happened at US Track Masters Nationals today.

'The' official that DQ'd Lance, way-back-when for a center line violation, was introduced by that accomplishment alone, and wished a happy birthday.

The announcer didn't have to say anything else to get everyone's attention and respect.

Funny that. New heroes emerging all over the place.

Dave.

 

[Digger]

Lance broke all the rules - but Travis broke some also in his time and didn't adhere to his own guidelines.

Walsh did what he had had to do.

Lemond, tape recordings and now his second coming.

Emma has been turned on.

Walsh and Lemond seem to think doping died with Lance - or else they just want a quiet life.

Without Jeff, USADA was doing nothing - and when people praise Travis, maybe you should look at Horner tomorrow. Or Jens....his name was also given to St Travis.


Listen it being all about lance is ok - but don't claim it's anything other than lance.

In order for it to be about more than lance, you move on from him. You talk about Sky, Nibali, QuickStep or the UCI.

I don't see evidence of this.

As regards the money - it's already been twisted into this Andreu Strategies line.
Fact is this: books, movies and documentaries are either out already, or on the way out.

Ben Foster Lance movie - 70grand for a few hours consultancy fee. So yes, just like there was an industry in his rise, there is a new one on his fall...be it Reed, Juliet and the many more.

Because it was lance, it seems to me that people are losing all sight...not holding travis to any account and worst of all not holding the current riders to the same level of scrutiny.

 

[SundayRider]

Clearly I am responding to this



Again, the majority of Ferrari's training is based on heart rate, not power......oh, and dope. Lots and lots of drugs

I'm guessing its power and heart rate based, basing it on both gives a much better indication of progression, recovery, training zones etc.

 

[Bluenote]

Lance broke all the rules - but Travis broke some also in his time and didn't adhere to his own guidelines.

Walsh did what he had had to do.

Lemond, tape recordings and now his second coming.

Emma has been turned on.

Walsh and Lemond seem to think doping died with Lance - or else they just want a quiet life.

Without Jeff, USADA was doing nothing - and when people praise Travis, maybe you should look at Horner tomorrow. Or Jens....his name was also given to St Travis.


Listen it being all about lance is ok - but don't claim it's anything other than lance.

In order for it to be about more than lance, you move on from him. You talk about Sky, Nibali, QuickStep or the UCI.

I don't see evidence of this.

As regards the money - it's already been twisted into this Andreu Strategies line.
Fact is this: books, movies and documentaries are either out already, or on the way out.

Ben Foster Lance movie - 70grand for a few hours consultancy fee. So yes, just like there was an industry in his rise, there is a new one on his fall...be it Reed, Juliet and the many more.

Because it was lance, it seems to me that people are losing all sight...not holding travis to any account and worst of all not holding the current riders to the same level of scrutiny.

Meh, fairly weak post. Broadly attacking others / other posters with strawman arguments 'no one is talking about Sky!' (Umh right, have you read the clinic threads?)

So whatcha say quit being holier than thou and offer some solutions?

1) The 'deals' given to Postal riders was light - 2 years reduced to 6 months.
How do you think it should have been handled?
Do you think there should be some mandatory minimum sentence for dopers caught after years of doping (instead of being able to lump it all into one offense?)

2) Jens isn't a US rider, wasn't affiliated with a US team.
Technically, can the USADA go after him?
If so, where does it (or should it) stop? Should the USADA become world cop, making up for all those ADAs that turn a blind eye to doping?

3) Some countries go after dopers, others sweep them under the rug.
Do you think the country system of ADAs should be reformed?
If so, what should it become?

4) Performances by SKY, etc... are suspicious, but there is no definitive evidence of doping (failed test, caught up in drug bust, etc...)
What should ADAs do, just charge people with no evidence?
How do you propose ADAs get evidence against suspicious performers?
Do you think other factors should be added to the bio passport? Say weight, power output, etc?

5) Armstrong got his titles stripped, but guys like Ulrich get to keep theirs.
Should the SOL be abolished?
Should there be a mass stripping of titles?

6) Riis, Vino, Hinape,Vaughters etc... are involved with teams on the management side.
Should former dopers be allowed to be management?

We could point fingers at everyone else, or we could come up with solutions. So, what solutions do you have to offer?

 

[the sceptic]

vortex is that you?

 

[Scott SoCal]

That is the myth to put it kindly, self serving propaganda to be more truthful. The reality is revealed in the deposition. Years were spent talking to journalists before SCA.

Oh dear...

Speaking of myths and propaganda, do you really think Betsy becomes anything other than a very peripheral figure in this saga by talking to journo's?

I guess she really did bring this fight to monkeymouth.

 

[Race Radio]

Lance broke all the rules - but Travis broke some also in his time

What rules did Travis break?

 

[Wallace]

What rules did Travis break?

He broke the only rule that matters: he won. That's not allowed. According to the rule, Lance wins. If he doesn't it's unfair. It's that simple, while at the same time it's very complicated (because, you know, conspiracies and…reasons).

 

[thehog]

Lance broke all the rules - but Travis broke some also in his time and didn't adhere to his own guidelines.

Walsh did what he had had to do.

Lemond, tape recordings and now his second coming.

Emma has been turned on.

Walsh and Lemond seem to think doping died with Lance - or else they just want a quiet life.

Without Jeff, USADA was doing nothing - and when people praise Travis, maybe you should look at Horner tomorrow. Or Jens....his name was also given to St Travis.


Listen it being all about lance is ok - but don't claim it's anything other than lance.

In order for it to be about more than lance, you move on from him. You talk about Sky, Nibali, QuickStep or the UCI.

I don't see evidence of this.

As regards the money - it's already been twisted into this Andreu Strategies line.
Fact is this: books, movies and documentaries are either out already, or on the way out.

Ben Foster Lance movie - 70grand for a few hours consultancy fee. So yes, just like there was an industry in his rise, there is a new one on his fall...be it Reed, Juliet and the many more.

Because it was lance, it seems to me that people are losing all sight...not holding travis to any account and worst of all not holding the current riders to the same level of scrutiny.

Evident by Tygart and his approach on Landis in 2006 – “Give me Lance and I’ll reduce your sentence” – there was no intent to consider whether the testosterone positive was legitimate or not, Tygart wanted a full take down and wasn’t interested in due process for Landis.

Further to this you only have to see the method USADA took to the Landis hearing. Joe Papp who was literally selling drugs from the stand was their star witnesses and that was meant to demonstrate what? Who validated USADA's witness and what he was saying was actually true.

I don’t doubt there was a means to end with Armstrong and they had to get him anyway they could but I certainly don’t believe Tygart has anti-doping at his heart. The Vaughters connection concerns me greatly. Is too cosy and most of it is “off the record”, no doubt the deals done and how the Ryder deal was structured was deeply influenced and hardly independent. I have grave concerns that one team can have such a close relationship with an anti-doping body with no oversight or governance. USPS/Armstrong was criticised for its ties with UCI but we see a similar bond between Vaughters and USADA, even for non-US based cyclists.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Evident by Tygart and his approach on Landis in 2006 – “Give me Lance and I’ll reduce your sentence” – there was no intent to consider whether the testosterone positive was legitimate or not, Tygart wanted a full take down and wasn’t interested in due process for Landis.

Further to this you only have to see the method USADA took to the Landis hearing. Joe Papp who was literally selling drugs from the stand was their star witnesses and that was meant to demonstrate what? Who validated USADA's witness and what he was saying was actually true.

I don’t doubt there was a means to end with Armstrong and they had to get him anyway they could but I certainly don’t believe Tygart has anti-doping at his heart. The Vaughters connection concerns me greatly. Is too cosy and most of it is “off the record”, no doubt the deals done and how the Ryder deal was structured was deeply influenced and hardly independent. I have grave concerns that one team can have such a close relationship with an anti-doping body with no oversight or governance. USPS/Armstrong was criticised for its ties with UCI but we see a similar bond between Vaughters and USADA, even for non-US based cyclists.

Give me Lance and I’ll reduce your sentence

A perfectly legitimate tactic. I'm sure you didn't forget the offer to Lance... talk/cooperate and the ban will be reduced.

there was no intent to consider whether the testosterone positive was legitimate or not, Tygart wanted a full take down and wasn’t interested in due process for Landis

Back this up. Thanks.

I certainly don’t believe Tygart has anti-doping at his heart.

That would then explain his literally hundreds of comments on the need and his willingness to protect clean athletes.

The Vaughters connection concerns me greatly

Yeah, last thing in the world we need is for team bosses to willingly cooperate and demand that his employees willingly cooperate with anti-dope authorities.

I have grave concerns that one team can have such a close relationship with an anti-doping body with no oversight or governance.

Trollkraft.

USPS/Armstrong was criticised for its ties with UCI but we see a similar bond between Vaughters and USADA

Good grief.

 

[thehog]

Yeah, last thing in the world we need is for team bosses to willingly cooperate and demand that his employees willingly cooperate with anti-dope authorities.
.

Which is at direct contrast with the public statements made by those same athletes.

Additionally to the legally binding supporting affidavit from Vaughters towards Armstrong at the SCA hearing.

I've not seen any evidence that Vaugters cooperated with the anti-doping authorities until the USADA RD. Yes, he spoke with them but it was never on the record so who knows what deals he was attempting to strike. I assume that once terms where in his favor he talked 'officially' - i.e. statute of limitations had tolled, no suspensions/6 month suspension deals.

If there was a true anti-doping intent then you go on the record once you're aware of what transpired not when you wish to have the game play in your favor.