Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Dec 7, 2010
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mrhender said:
A subtract from Paul Dimeo's article on Armstrong:
I had to reformat it a bit to even get through it. Here it is in a more quotable version with some paragraph breaks:


The reason for targeting Armstrong seems to be that he was the most successful cyclist of the period. Yet, that seems an arbitrary and unfair criterion:

Why not pursue accusations against cyclists who came 2nd, 9th or 15th in Grand Tours? We could develop that further and argue that anti- doping investigations should really be universal rather than individual – all cyclists should be treated with the same energetic focus, not just the one that is successful, unpopular and making a return to the sport. Researcher Kathryn Henne recently claimed there was a certain disproportionate focus on Armstrong:

Having ethnographically studied the anti-doping regime since 2007, I can attest that nearly every anti-doping official I have met has gone on record saying that ‘catching’ Armstrong would be the anti-doping movement’s crowning achievement.

That is not the only way in which Armstrong has been treated differently. In all other cases where a doping accusation is upheld, there is some substantial evidence. The most common form of evidence is a positive test which is confirmed by testing a ‘B’ sample, and which is scientifically validated by an accredited laboratory. As noted already, there is now scope to retrospectively test samples as far back as eight years. A second type of evidence is a confession, which is most common in situations where a police investigation is being conducted. If an athlete is asked by a journalist or a sports authority if they doped, they can deny without any punishments. However, if they deny in a police investigation and are later found guilty they can be prosecuted for perjury, as happened with Marion Jones. The Scottish cyclist David Millar denied doping under interrogation by the French police for almost 48 hours before eventually giving in.

Confessions are hard to achieve and need to be produced in very specific circumstances. Until the Lance Armstrong case, no athlete was publicly accused by a sports authority unless there was either a positive test or a confession to support the accusation. In these circumstances, USADA took a significant risk in collecting witness statements to pursue a case for which there was little legal precedence. Their officials must have done so because of a specific determination to catch Armstrong. Given the lack of ‘normal’ evidence, they could have left the matter alone, but instead devoted significant resources and took significant policy risks in order to achieve their goal. However, they would not have had the details and the confidence had not the US Federal Inquiry into the financing of the US Postal Team’s doping culture not begun and subsequently collapsed. The Inquiry had the power to subpoena individual cyclists, and after evidence was collected from several team members, the suspicions surrounding Armstrong were becoming public. The momentum was gathering but the Inquiry came to a halt because there was insufficient evidence to pursue a criminal case. At this stage, there was not enough supporting evidence: no positive test, no confession and no possibility of a criminal court case, USADA and WADA could have abandoned the accusation on the basis of lack of evidence, but instead the focused determination to catch Armstrong inspired more investigative work.

As mentioned above, Kathryn Henne found that anti-doping staff working on professional cycling had consistently expressed a desire to catch Armstrong. Journalists felt frustrated that the fragments of evidence did not amount to a convincing case against him. However, armed with the Federal Inquiry’s evidence, USADA decided to keep pursuing Armstrong. It seems that their CEO Travis Tygart was not willing to let the seven-time Tour de France winner off the hook. It is not clear if this was a personal vendetta or witch-hunt as Armstrong claimed, but certainly it seems a dogged pursuit which did not have to be undertaken. However, we should not be tempted to look solely at individuals (such as Tygart and Walsh) when in fact the wider development processes that enabled anti-doping policy were central to the unfolding outcomes of this affair.

There may have been some other influencing factors that pressurised USADA. One was that Armstrong was competing in other sports – mountain biking, triathlon and marathons – where the competitors and spectators did not tolerate suspicions of doping that had been tolerated in professional cycling. Perhaps by venturing into other areas, Armstrong unwittingly helped those who wanted to see him removed from all sports. If he had not returned in 2005 to a cleaner cycling culture and not competed in cleaner sports, he might have simply been seen as the best cyclist of a certain time period when most top cyclists were dopers and he was never caught so no accusations could stick. Instead, his desire to prove himself as an athlete in the broadest sense contributed to his eventual downfall.

The fact he made enemies of important people and that USADA was determined to prove its capabilities, and that doping increasingly became a public interest story, were the other factors involved. We now know that he was doping through most of his career, but history would have told a different story had not these specific factors that – in combination with the macro- and micro-level developments already discussed – tightened the net around Armstrong.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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That entire thing is so wrought with idiocy that I can't even believe I'm exerting the energy on it. And yet here I am.

The reason for targeting Armstrong seems to be that he was the most successful cyclist of the period. Yet, that seems an arbitrary and unfair criterion:
Right out of the gate, that is a massive fail. "Arbitrary and unfair"? Yeah, OK. If you're not going to go after the top gun—the most decorated and, by far, the most conspicuos—the how in the hell could you justify going after anyone at all?


Why not pursue accusations against cyclists who came 2nd, 9th or 15th in Grand Tours? We could develop that further and argue that anti- doping investigations should really be universal rather than individual – all cyclists should be treated with the same energetic focus, not just the one that is successful, unpopular and making a return to the sport.
Well gee, Wally, just for starters, every investigation requires both time and resources. :rolleyes: How was this sport-wide investigation supposed to take place, exactly, given that a large majority of the offenders weren't even under the jurisdiction of USADA?

‘catching’ Armstrong would be the anti-doping movement’s crowning achievement
No kidding? The biggest target became the biggest target. SHOCKING! :eek:


Until the Lance Armstrong case, no athlete was publicly accused by a sports authority unless there was either a positive test or a confession to support the accusation.
So boatloads of eyewitness testimony was supposed to have been left on the cutting room floor, just because...
Brilliant!


In these circumstances, USADA took a significant risk in collecting witness statements to pursue a case for which there was little legal precedence. Their officials must have done so because of a specific determination to catch Armstrong.
Guilty as charged, I'm sure. They were "determined" to catch Armstrong. Who would of thunk?


Blah blah blah blah blah...
However, they would not have had the details and the confidence had not the US Federal Inquiry into the financing of the US Postal Team’s doping culture not begun and subsequently collapsed. :rolleyes: The Inquiry had the power to subpoena individual cyclists, and after evidence was collected from several team members, the suspicions surrounding Armstrong were becoming public. The momentum was gathering but the Inquiry came to a halt because there was insufficient evidence to pursue a criminal case. :eek:
Link please, to the above absurd claim.


At this stage, there was not enough supporting evidence: no positive test, no confession and no possibility of a criminal court case, USADA and WADA could have abandoned the accusation on the basis of lack of evidence, but instead the focused determination to catch Armstrong inspired more investigative work.
"Abandoned the accusation"? USADA hadn't even begun. They were waiting in line for the Feds to do their job first.


Journalists felt frustrated that the fragments of evidence did not amount to a convincing case against him.
Sally Jenkins concurs.


However, armed with the Federal Inquiry’s evidence, USADA decided to keep pursuing Armstrong.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.


We now know that he was doping through most of his career, but history would have told a different story
...had there been more people like Paul Dimeo at the helm.

What a complete joke.

</Maserati>
 
Aug 13, 2009
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And so it continues.....Fireman's fund IMA


Bz7ikHcIgAAzo0K.jpg
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Granville57 said:
What a complete joke.

From the same guy:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24329252

Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong both thought others were doping - and they were right. They both felt they could not trust the anti-doping system to protect the idea of fairness - and they were right about that, too. Their doping was driven by the belief that they were only doing what they had to do to win. Yet they have both been punished very severely while others have got away with it.
I can't help but have some sympathy.

And when you start looking at the question from that angle, another thought presents itself.
What if doping has done something good for sport? What if, in fact, doping has helped make sport what it is today?

And his conclusive remarks from the study:

It could be argued in defence of Lance Armstrong and cyclists of the ‘doping era’ that:

(1) their rights to participate in doping-free sport were not respected and protected;
(2) their health was not damaged by doping;
(3) even if it was, it was their own choice;
(4) the ‘omerta’ served to give cyclists the equality of doping.

The intrusion of anti-doping has created chaos, new forms of unfairness, ruined lives and reputations, and potentially created problematic consequences for future sports. The wider context of the Lance Armstrong case is about more than one person; it is about processes and decisions with intriguing motives and uncertain outcomes.

He seems among other things to ignore that Armstrong was not just your "casual" doper..
I have some sympathies for the idea that anti-doping when inconsistently applied can be damaging for the sport, but that is about it..
The rest is taken to an extreme -with a lot of problematic claims and conclusions.
I guess he found a niche for making a living...
 
Feb 4, 2012
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a sport of which I knew nothing about until 10 years ago when the story of the Lance Armstrong miracle was increasingly circulating - the great hero who recovered from cancer to dominate the sport.

It's not a 'sport' when the participants are doping. Rather, it's a contest between who has the best 'doctor' and connections to the UCI head honchos.
 
Aug 9, 2010
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Pazuzu said:
It's not a 'sport' when the participants are doping. Rather, it's a contest between who has the best 'doctor' and connections to the UCI head honchos.

the "Lance Armstrong miracle"....
I sure hope Lance is reading this thread as of late :)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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mrhender said:
From the same guy:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24329252



And his conclusive remarks from the study:



He seems among other things to ignore that Armstrong was not just your "casual" doper..
I have some sympathies for the idea that anti-doping when inconsistently applied can be damaging for the sport, but that is about it..
The rest is taken to an extreme -with a lot of problematic claims and conclusions.
I guess he found a niche for making a living...
Armstrong doped in the triathlon as a teenager. He was always the person to push, cheat, and get the illegal edge. He found his niche in cycling. Cycling found its niche in Armstrong
 
May 27, 2010
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ralphbert said:
Excellent strawmanism

Thanks!

On that note:

Granville57 said:
...

The reason for targeting Armstrong seems to be that he was the most successful cyclist of the period. Yet, that seems an arbitrary and unfair criterion:

Right out of the gate, that is a massive fail. "Arbitrary and unfair"? Yeah, OK. If you're not going to go after the top gun—the most decorated and, by far, the most conspicuos—the how in the hell could you justify going after anyone at all?

Why not pursue accusations against cyclists who came 2nd, 9th or 15th in Grand Tours? We could develop that further and argue that anti- doping investigations should really be universal rather than individual – all cyclists should be treated with the same energetic focus, not just the one that is successful, unpopular and making a return to the sport.

...

While Granville's points are extremely well taken, it has completely escaped Paul Dimeo's meager knowledge base that it is extremely unlikely that, other than for random tests, cyclists who came in after third place are unlikely to face much anti-doping scrutiny. Standard testing protocol is top three plus randoms - at best.

This reflects the obvious.

You only need to worry about the winners to see if the results are tainted. Otherwise, what is the point of an anti-doping program?

It should also be obvious that Lance's six EPO positives, the back-dated TUE episode, the TdS payoff, etc. would not happen to riders placing 9th or 15th.

As per Granville's observations, there is no point whatsoever in pursuing the last place finisher as that cyclist has obviously not tainted any results for other cyclists.

Though, under the Phat and Nein's leadership it would not have been surprising if the UCI only focused on last place finishers in order to protect the money stream that they might get from people like Lance.

Dave.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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blackcat said:
Armstrong doped in the triathlon as a teenager. He was always the person to push, cheat, and get the illegal edge. He found his niche in cycling. Cycling found its niche in Armstrong

I was talking of Dimeo, but Yeah -still makes sense...
Funny thing... :p

Armstrong left cycling in a vacuum -same as 1998 did...

I guess this is the premise of Pro-cycling.......
Leaving things in a vacuum....

Funny thing is, the next era always has a new remarkable story to tell...

Wonder what's next....
 
Feb 10, 2010
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D-Queued said:
Though, under the Phat and Nein's leadership it would not have been surprising if the UCI only focused on last place finishers in order to protect the money stream that they might get from people like Lance.

Dave.

It's not even that complicated. We know they didn't open cases on positives. Some people, somewhere, have to like you enough to keep the positive quiet.

Or, maybe they don't like you so much and a bribe transpires. With the passing of time, the Sysmex machine bribe is even more ridiculous than it was at the time. Someone at the UCI was handling blood samples? That was/is in the Saugy group responsibilities.
 
May 27, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Paul Dimeo is comically pathetic.

It is easy for anyone here to easily dismantle his nonsense but those in the ivory tower, with limited understanding of sport, consume it without questioning it. This has developed a lucrative revenue stream for Paul. In the last couple years he has been given over $100,000 in "Grants" to write papers that regurgitate the same tired talking points.

It should come as no surprise that one of these grants included 2 years at, wait for it, University of Texas, Austin :rolleyes:

If his other papers bear any resemblance, it is inconceivable that any would have survived any sort of peer review.

But, it does sound like easy money. Easier than my day job. Make stuff up, put it in writing and get paid for it. Cool.

Dave.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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D-Queued said:
If his other papers bear any resemblance, it is inconceivable that any would have survived any sort of peer review.

But, it does sound like easy money. Easier than my day job. Make stuff up, put it in writing and get paid for it. Cool.

Dave.
i thought a Fulbright scholarship was an elite vetting like a Rhodes. Then again, in Australia, they used to favour sportsmen before Dean's list scholars.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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mrhender said:
I was talking of Dimeo, but Yeah -still makes sense...
Funny thing... :p

Armstrong left cycling in a vacuum -same as 1998 did...

I guess this is the premise of Pro-cycling.......
Leaving things in a vacuum....

Funny thing is, the next era always has a new remarkable story to tell...

Wonder what's next....
yes, its a Zeno's Paradox.Things are always falling into the vacuum, then they are always getting cleaner, at once, cleaner, at once, vacuum, at once, schroedingers vacuum peloton
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Granville57 said:
:
Until the Lance Armstrong case, no athlete was publicly accused by a sports authority unless there was either a positive test or a confession to support the accusation.
So boatloads of eyewitness testimony was supposed to have been left on the cutting room floor, just because...
Brilliant!

I take it that he just avoided any reference to the 6 positives from 1999? :rolleyes:
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Archibald said:
I take it that he just avoided any reference to the 6 positives from 1999? :rolleyes:
and 2001 Tour de Suisse, and all the other testosterone positives in early 90s with USAC
 
Jul 25, 2014
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Race Radio said:
Paul Dimeo is comically pathetic.

It is easy for anyone here to easily dismantle his nonsense but those in the ivory tower, with limited understanding of sport, consume it without questioning it. This has developed a lucrative revenue stream for Paul. In the last couple years he has been given over $100,000 in "Grants" to write papers that regurgitate the same tired talking points.

It should come as no surprise that one of these grants included 2 years at, wait for it, University of Texas, Austin :rolleyes:

Hilarious - seems like another one of those unwise manoeuvres with a mouthpiece by proxy this time that's backfired again :D
 
Jul 18, 2010
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mrhender said:


Fixed it for him:

...[T]he story of the Lance Armstrong miracle was increasingly circulating - the great hero who gave himself cancer through PEDs abuse, recognised the marketing potential his predicament offered, and recovered from it both to dominate the sport and to subvert the anti-cancer charity industry....


It was a brill plan, ...until it wasn't
 
Sep 16, 2010
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Has LA been saying hello to Don Testosterone lately?

1413487321735_Image_galleryImage_EXCLUSIVE_Pictures_by_EXC.JPG


He's certainly getting mentioned in the gossip columns this week...
link
 
Aug 9, 2010
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fmk_RoI said:
Has LA been saying hello to Don Testosterone lately?

1413487321735_Image_galleryImage_EXCLUSIVE_Pictures_by_EXC.JPG


He's certainly getting mentioned in the gossip columns this week...

you know the rules...links ^^^^ ;)

btw...that body language from the missus looks suspicious ;0
 
Jun 15, 2009
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mewmewmew13 said:
you know the rules...links ^^^^ ;)

btw...that body language from the missus looks suspicious ;0

noticed that too - she's either very surprised or not particularly willing

I'd take a punt that it's LA reacting to seeing the camera - "quick honey, let's look 'normal'..."
 

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