Official Lance Armstrong thread

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Jul 16, 2009
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Padeiro said:
That's a bit of a stretch, no? Is the man bigger than the race? I know that he is god to some but I don't think he could've done this by himself. The race has changed with the times. I think LA is an indicator of the change, not its cause.

Maybe, maybe not. Just my impression that it tends to be the perception. Chicken/egg thing, but regardless Armstrong is directly connected/associated with the new dynamic that has made for more boring & predictable GC racing in the TdF.
 
objective skeptic said:
Maybe, maybe not. Just my impression that it tends to be the perception. Chicken/egg thing, but regardless Armstrong is directly connected/associated with the new dynamic that has made for more boring & predictable GC racing in the TdF.

Uh-oh. You are now officially a hater.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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dadoorsron said:
You have failed to mention that Lance armstrong lost 10 plus pounds of muscle mass during his cancer fight.

This is absolute BS. The only objective figures can be found in Coyle's study (see Table) which show that Lance did not lose body weight or lean body weight pre- and post-cancer.

Picture1-1.png


dadoorsron said:
The use states 90 minutes at 5500 m Three times a week for three weeks. 2.5 percent increase . That's a big bump just for 90 minutes. How about adding that up to 9 hours a day everyday for one year. I think you can bump your Hemacrit level right to the 50% limit what do you think.

Are you kidding me? Training at altitude for 9 hours a day, 365 days a year? No one trains that hard, even Lance, at sea level, and cyclists like Lance train at altitude for a small percentage of the year. You were comparing altitude training to blood transfusions and EPO. I showed you scientific literature that showed maximum increases with altitude training or tents is 3-4%. Compare that to 20-25% for EPO.
 
Jul 16, 2009
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elapid said:
This is absolute BS. The only objective figures can be found in Coyle's study (see Table) which show that Lance did not lose body weight or lean body weight pre- and post-cancer.

Forgive me for not being up-to-speed on this particular issue, but would I be wrong to assume Lance wasn't being tested during his treatment? In that scenario, it's possible to have the body breakdown and lose weight and then be re-built differently. 75 kilos pre-cancer does not necessarily equate to the same body physiology at 75 kilos (or whatever) post-cancer.

That table shows nearly a 4-yr gap, so it stands to reason that, despite gaining a few kilos, his efficiency/power could have changed.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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elapid said:
This is absolute BS. The only objective figures can be found in Coyle's study (see Table) which show that Lance did not lose body weight or lean body weight pre- and post-cancer.

Interesting table. So from this, it appears the only systematic change was with regard to mechanical efficiency. Anyone ever written anything as to the root of that improvement? The high cadence pedaling style he adopted?
 
objective skeptic said:
And I haven't even touched on how he's changed the dynamic of the TdF for the worse.

Indeed. He made it his sole and excluse focus. He and Johann focused everything on the Tour, which for them became a kind of "corporate" objective and thus an unnatural one. No cycilst, in the history of the sport, went so far in eliminating the rest of the calendar, with all of its worthy traditions, and in attempting to make the Tour cycling itself, replacing the part for the whole. By micromanaging his preparation for the Tour, Lance also forced his major rivals to follow suit, which means we got to see less of them throughout the year as well, with the result that for fans in Europe their sport became more aenemic and impoverished as a whole. As if some of the vital lymph was taken out of it. Such hyperspecialization has arguably made the cycling calander less spectacular.

Not even Indurain went so far, allowing us to admire him also at the Giro and Worlds at the hight of his career. Most Europeans thus never could appreciate him for this and they couldn't understand it, because, being true fans of a sport they know way more about than the average American, found Armstrong to be an ungenerous champion. And they saw the whole show, at the Tour, as being rather robotic and lacking in good taste. He gave them a new record, but nothing else. And in the end, it all seemed rather sterile and predictable. In the perfection with which Lance and Johann masterfully planned, engineered, and then realized his 7 straight Tour victories, in a new corporate fashion as I have previously called it, the spetacle became viewed as somewhat anti-aesthetic in Europe. And this has nothing to do with anti-Americanism, which is merely an alibi to justify Lance's approach by his fans.

Armstrong, though, wasn't riding for them of course, but for his fan base in America, and while that may have helped the sport financially during the moment, it has proven to be a rather miopic and self-centered approach in the end. Armstrong desired, in focusing exclusively on the Tour, to mold the entire sport of cycling to his own image and liking which smacked in Europe of American imperialism. And while naturally that may have been fine for America, which television wise knows only the Tour, for Europeans it seemed to be in flagrant disregard for the sport as a whole, which made Armstrong (and not the other way around). Lance has never seemed to understand this, though, nor much beyond his own narrow self-interests.

Sure it could be argued that he has changed of late, that he is doing more races in his comeback. But this is not the real issue. Because it's too late. It would have counted more, had he done more races at the height of his career, for example a couple of Giro's, some classics, and definitely the Worlds on an annual basis.

To sum up the whole debate, where everyone is naturally entitled to their own perspective and opinion on the matter, from a fairly accurate slant on Europe's point of view (among it's veteran cycling fan base that is): see Hinault's comments I posted here above.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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objective skeptic said:
Forgive me for not being up-to-speed on this particular issue, but would I be wrong to assume Lance wasn't being tested during his treatment? In that scenario, it's possible to have the body breakdown and lose weight and then be re-built differently. 75 kilos pre-cancer does not necessarily equate to the same body physiology at 75 kilos (or whatever) post-cancer.

That table shows nearly a 4-yr gap, so it stands to reason that, despite gaining a few kilos, his efficiency/power could have changed.

Efficiency is possible. In the Clinical section, I posted some articles which showed that elite cyclists could make up for deficiencies in VO2 max (I think) by improving their efficiency.

Power/kg changes minimally over the same time period. Power is on the bottom row of the table. There is about a 5% improvement in power/kg, but it is still only around 5.1 which is not great for an elite cyclist.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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SBR2009 said:
Interesting table. So from this, it appears the only systematic change was with regard to mechanical efficiency. Anyone ever written anything as to the root of that improvement? The high cadence pedaling style he adopted?

Coyle argues that his mechanical efficiency and reduced body fat were responsible for an 18% increase in steady state power. But the 18% increase in power was an erroneous calculation (he used estimated racing weight for the 1999 preseason power, and measured preseason weights for the other preseason power calculations). The reduced body fat argument is incorrect as you can see from the table. That leaves the mechanical efficiency argument and Ashenden claims that Coyle's efficiency calculations were also incorrect.
 
gree0232 said:
Well, when I start seeing connections to the world of politics, bland generalized science about what doping can be done, and then 'proof' seen in the denials that obviously follow an accusation.

Lets be clear, unless you plan on moving to Iran or something we have a standard that is called the presumption of innocence. So lets take a look at the actual evidence of doping and realize that there were a lot of people out there who were pouring over everything Lance did to try and find proof of doping in addition to his status as the 'most tested athlete.' In all those years, they never found anything that stood up before the a court of law. At some point, the abscence of proof after an exhaustive search is indeed proof -- just not of guilt.

Lets take a look at the most often quoted Lance accusations:

1. Lance tested positive in 1999!

Actually, he didn't. He allowed his blood to be tested by LNDD, who subsequently violated basic anti-doping standards using a test that was still in the expiramental stage and just happened to find that the samples, which they knew were Lance's, just happened to confirm what the French Press were saying about Lance in 1999. The 'results' were then leaked to the Press. Curious.

As an interesting aside, part of the lopsided victory was due to an incident at the Passage du Gois in which several of the GC contenders were left floundered in the lower tides wake in a massive pile up. That did not require any dope at all.

As crashes do not require dope, it is probably not surprising that when the issue was examined by an independant commission appointed by the UC that it's conclusion was, "[The report] exonerates Lance Armstrong completely with respect to alleged use of doping in the 1999 Tour de FranceTour de France."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Lance...g--according+to+an+independent...-a0169017227

Perhaps it was because the breach of these basic standards of conduct were known by the authors of this accusation that the 'results' were leaked to the press where they make for an effective smear campaign but do not amount to proof of anything.

2. Mrs. Andreau knows all about Lance's doping.

I am sure she does. However, Lance's doctor directly countered her claims in court. Furthermore, doctors keep records of their decisions, actions, and treatments, and it would be fairly safe to say that a doctor would have to take steps to avoid complications with known drug use to make effective treatments for something like say .... cancer. There appears to be no evidence that the doctor, indeed a team of medical staff, took actions that were consistant with dealing with doping products in Lance Armstrong.

Mrs. Andreau's statements, as convincing and as forceful as they appear, do not appear to meet the requisite evidentary standard. Those statements have the same problem that all the statements made about Armstrong have: they lack any supporting proof.

There is no syringe ala Roger Clemens, indeed no paraphernalia even after seven years of constant searching. There is no Peurto blood like there is apparently for Hamilton and indeed for Ullrich and Basso. There is no positive test like there is for Ricco and other 'targeted' riders, bearing in mind that Lance was targeted for seven straight years without a positive test.

The question at this point to many of those convinced that Armstrong doped, what could he possibly do that would convince you of his innocence? Bring in an independant comission to look at the facts? Take the matter to court and have an impartial judge decide where the preponderance of the truth lies? He has done so.

If that isn't enough, please ask yourself how you would feel if you showed up at work and had your boss call you into your office and fired you because:

1. You tested positive THC in a retroactive research test from eight years ago, even though the test was conducted in such a way as that the 'result' violated basic testing standards and was conducted inside a meth lab.

2. A peer's wife says she saw you smoking dope in front of a doctor while under his care. The doctor denies this and his notes back up his claim.

If you would honestly tell your boss, "Fair enough, I obviously smoked dope so its best that you just fire me," with a cheery smile, then you would be willing to do what you are demanding Lance do because he is clearly guilty by the same standard.

There are standards for guilt and innocence, and all those benchmarks that must be met to prove innocence, which is not a requirement in our system, have been met. However, not a single standard of guilt has been produced against Lance despite years of trying to do so. That in and of itself speaks volumes.

He may of doped, but if it is so obvious, kindly prove it or shut up.

Your legal observations have no bearing on the issue. And it is silly and belittleing to point out we aren't living in Iran, as if we don't know that. Common sense leads anybody with even a moderately decent critical head on his shoulders (and who knows the sport from Europe's perspective) to conclude that any Tour winner over the past 20 years or so, let alone a 7 straight one during the last decade, could not have achieved that without advanced blood doping. Unless you believe aliens exist.

What you argue is an entirely different matter, one for the courts, where, in any case, money and power have often (and historically) prevented the guilty from being held accountable for their actions. So I often put less faith in them, than in my own critical thinking especially where simple common sense is involved.

And there is no need to tell us to shut up, as we've never tried to "proove" anything, and have just stated openly what commom sense has led us to believe. As everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Thanks.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Link

Would you mind linking--I'd be interested in reading those. Sorry, I'm a newbie to the forums. :)

elapid said:
Efficiency is possible. In the Clinical section, I posted some articles which showed that elite cyclists could make up for deficiencies in VO2 max (I think) by improving their efficiency.
 
SBR2009 said:
Would you mind linking--I'd be interested in reading those. Sorry, I'm a newbie to the forums. :)

There is a discussion of this in The Clinic forum in the thread "Reasons for Lemond's decline." It includes posts by Dr. Coggan, a protege of Dr. Coyle?, defending the study. There are also links to the Science of Sport website, in which other PhDs tear the study apart, including pointing out errors and referencing others who have criticized the study.
 
Apr 8, 2009
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lance is the coolest and most awesome cyclist to walk this earth. except for jan ullrich.

</argument>
 
objective skeptic said:
Forgive me for not being up-to-speed on this particular issue, but would I be wrong to assume Lance wasn't being tested during his treatment? In that scenario, it's possible to have the body breakdown and lose weight and then be re-built differently. 75 kilos pre-cancer does not necessarily equate to the same body physiology at 75 kilos (or whatever) post-cancer.

That table shows nearly a 4-yr gap, so it stands to reason that, despite gaining a few kilos, his efficiency/power could have changed.

Wooooooooooooow amazing theory, something like story about Spiderman... Peter Parker is bitten on the hand by a genetically engineered "super spider" and the next morning, Peter wakes to find that his previously impaired vision has improved and that his body has metamorphosized into a more muscular physique !!!!
Similar happened to Lance Armstrong because after cancer his body structure was completely rebuild and new super hero is born
Captain America - Lance Livestrong !!!!!!!!!

captain_america3.jpg
 
rhubroma said:
Indeed. He made it his sole and excluse focus. He and Johann focused everything on the Tour, which for them became a kind of "corporate" objective and thus an unnatural one. No cycilst, in the history of the sport, went so far in eliminating the rest of the calendar, with all of its worthy traditions, and in attempting to make the Tour cycling itself, replacing the part for the whole. By micromanaging his preparation for the Tour, Lance also forced his major rivals to follow suit, which means we got to see less of them throughout the year as well, with the result that for fans in Europe their sport became more aenemic and impoverished as a whole. As if some of the vital lymph was taken out of it. Such hyperspecialization has arguably made the cycling calander less spectacular.

Not even Indurain went so far, allowing us to admire him also at the Giro and Worlds at the hight of his career. Most Europeans thus never could appreciate him for this and they couldn't understand it, because, being true fans of a sport they know way more about than the average American, found Armstrong to be an ungenerous champion. And they saw the whole show, at the Tour, as being rather robotic and lacking in good taste. He gave them a new record, but nothing else. And in the end, it all seemed rather sterile and predictable. In the perfection with which Lance and Johann masterfully planned, engineered, and then realized his 7 straight Tour victories, in a new corporate fashion as I have previously called it, the spetacle became viewed as somewhat anti-aesthetic in Europe. And this has nothing to do with anti-Americanism, which is merely an alibi to justify Lance's approach by his fans.

Armstrong, though, wasn't riding for them of course, but for his fan base in America, and while that may have helped the sport financially during the moment, it has proven to be a rather miopic and self-centered approach in the end. Armstrong desired, in focusing exclusively on the Tour, to mold the entire sport of cycling to his own image and liking which smacked in Europe of American imperialism. And while naturally that may have been fine for America, which television wise knows only the Tour, for Europeans it seemed to be in flagrant disregard for the sport as a whole, which made Armstrong (and not the other way around). Lance has never seemed to understand this, though, nor much beyond his own narrow self-interests.

Sure it could be argued that he has changed of late, that he is doing more races in his comeback. But this is not the real issue. Because it's too late. It would have counted more, had he done more races at the height of his career, for example a couple of Giro's, some classics, and definitely the Worlds on an annual basis.

To sum up the whole debate, where everyone is naturally entitled to their own perspective and opinion on the matter, from a fairly accurate slant on Europe's point of view (among it's veteran cycling fan base that is): see Hinault's comments I posted here above.

+1000000

Excellent post
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Worst post ever.

Hey guys, guess what. All tour winners over the past 20 years are dopers, because common sense tells us so!

I'm just glad I'm rich so I don't have to work around idiots like you. I bet that makes you sad.

Ha ha.

rhubroma said:
Your legal observations have no bearing on the issue. And it is silly and belittleing to point out we aren't living in Iran, as if we don't know that. Common sense leads anybody with even a moderately decent critical head on his shoulders (and who knows the sport from Europe's perspective) to conclude that any Tour winner over the past 20 years or so, let alone a 7 straight one during the last decade, could not have achieved that without advanced blood doping. Unless you believe aliens exist.

What you argue is an entirely different matter, one for the courts, where, in any case, money and power have often (and historically) prevented the guilty from being held accountable for their actions. So I often put less faith in them, than in my own critical thinking especially where simple common sense is involved.

And there is no need to tell us to shut up, as we've never tried to "proove" anything, and have just stated openly what commom sense has led us to believe. As everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Thanks.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Blindly following tradition is for the weak.

It's not possible to define the success of riders if they all pick and choose different races across a season.

If competition is about finding the number one competitor, choosing a race to be the *gold cup* and focusing on that race is the way to do it.

Lance did this and showed us why he is number one.

Cry more.

rhubroma said:
Indeed. He made it his sole and excluse focus. He and Johann focused everything on the Tour, which for them became a kind of "corporate" objective and thus an unnatural one. No cycilst, in the history of the sport, went so far in eliminating the rest of the calendar, with all of its worthy traditions, and in attempting to make the Tour cycling itself, replacing the part for the whole. By micromanaging his preparation for the Tour, Lance also forced his major rivals to follow suit, which means we got to see less of them throughout the year as well, with the result that for fans in Europe their sport became more aenemic and impoverished as a whole. As if some of the vital lymph was taken out of it. Such hyperspecialization has arguably made the cycling calander less spectacular.

Not even Indurain went so far, allowing us to admire him also at the Giro and Worlds at the hight of his career. Most Europeans thus never could appreciate him for this and they couldn't understand it, because, being true fans of a sport they know way more about than the average American, found Armstrong to be an ungenerous champion. And they saw the whole show, at the Tour, as being rather robotic and lacking in good taste. He gave them a new record, but nothing else. And in the end, it all seemed rather sterile and predictable. In the perfection with which Lance and Johann masterfully planned, engineered, and then realized his 7 straight Tour victories, in a new corporate fashion as I have previously called it, the spetacle became viewed as somewhat anti-aesthetic in Europe. And this has nothing to do with anti-Americanism, which is merely an alibi to justify Lance's approach by his fans.

Armstrong, though, wasn't riding for them of course, but for his fan base in America, and while that may have helped the sport financially during the moment, it has proven to be a rather miopic and self-centered approach in the end. Armstrong desired, in focusing exclusively on the Tour, to mold the entire sport of cycling to his own image and liking which smacked in Europe of American imperialism. And while naturally that may have been fine for America, which television wise knows only the Tour, for Europeans it seemed to be in flagrant disregard for the sport as a whole, which made Armstrong (and not the other way around). Lance has never seemed to understand this, though, nor much beyond his own narrow self-interests.

Sure it could be argued that he has changed of late, that he is doing more races in his comeback. But this is not the real issue. Because it's too late. It would have counted more, had he done more races at the height of his career, for example a couple of Giro's, some classics, and definitely the Worlds on an annual basis.

To sum up the whole debate, where everyone is naturally entitled to their own perspective and opinion on the matter, from a fairly accurate slant on Europe's point of view (among it's veteran cycling fan base that is): see Hinault's comments I posted here above.
 
fpcyclingn said:
Blindly following tradition is for the weak.

It's not possible to define the success of riders if they all pick and choose different races across a season.

If competition is about finding the number one competitor, choosing a race to be the *gold cup* and focusing on that race is the way to do it.

Lance did this and showed us why he is number one.

Cry more.

If I remember well you supposed to be a local village idiot who wrote this

fpcyclingn said:
Here's a thought. If you aren't from America, stop talking. Your opinion doesn't matter.

Second, you have to be an idiot to think Armstrong is going to NOT ride as a team. You know he would love to win, but:

1) He's smarter than you

2) He's also smarter than you.

3) He's way smarter than Bala Verde.

He will be able to determine very quickly where his performance level is and he'll be very quick to start riding in a way that ensures a team win, even if it means riding for Contador.

And Bala Verde, How is Armstrong a "mental wreck"? He's only one of the coolest, most suave, and intelligent racers ever to grace the sport of cycling.

Maybe that's why all you foreigners hate America. We're just too cool.

What are you... spanish? Why don't you keep your mouth closed unless I tell you to speak.
 
fpcyclingn said:
Worst post ever.

Hey guys, guess what. All tour winners over the past 20 years are dopers, because common sense tells us so!

I'm just glad I'm rich so I don't have to work around idiots like you. I bet that makes you sad.

Ha ha.

Its funny how guys like you, who have probably never raced once in your life, let alone at a high level in Europe, so arrogantly assume knowledge of something which, in reality, you know absolutely nothing about.

The complete inaneness, stupidity and vulgarity of your thought processes, defies every comment. So I won't waste my time.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Its funny how guys like you, who have probably never raced once in your life, let alone at a high level in Europe, so arrogantly assume knowledge of something which, in reality, you know absolutely nothing about.

The complete inaneness, stupidity and vulgarity of your thought processes, defies every comment. So I won't waste my time.

I entirely agree with your comments about the person you're addressing, but you, like the rest of your ilk, simply cannot think outside of your own blinkered box.

This is an internet cycling forum! There is no requirement for posters to have raced at any level in order to be 'allowed' to express an opinion. You've got no business constantly talking 'down' at people who happen to take a different view on the basis that they haven't raced, and you have. It just makes you and those who share your attitude, look like arrogant pr!cks.
 
Amsterhammer said:
I entirely agree with your comments about the person you're addressing, but you, like the rest of your ilk, simply cannot think outside of your own blinkered box.

This is an internet cycling forum! There is no requirement for posters to have raced at any level in order to be 'allowed' to express an opinion. You've got no business constantly talking 'down' at people who happen to take a different view on the basis that they haven't raced, and you have. It just makes you and those who share your attitude, look like arrogant pr!cks.

There you go again, Assterhammer, or Amsterhammer (or however the hell you call yourself), with that arrogant pr!cks insult. Come on, can't you image something more spirited, like: a$$, fùckhole, d!ckwad, fartface, mutterfùcker....b!itcho!?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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rhubroma said:
There you go again, Assterhammer, or Amsterhammer (or however the hell you call yourself), with that arrogant pr!cks insult. Come on, can't you image something more spirited, like: a$$, fùckhole, d!ckwad, fartface, mutterfùcker....b!itcho!?

If the cap fits, wear it. :D
 
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