Official thread TdF Stage 14 Colmar - Besançon - 199 km

[Anonymous]

The breaks lead increased while Astana was at the front...




As you can see, when Astana was leading the "chase" Hincapie increased his lead. When other teams took over the chase the lead went down.

Can't dispute the clock.

Why were they pulling at all? They DIDN'T HAVE YELLOW. They are as responsible as anyone. They pulled off with just 8 minutes? Why wouldn't someone take up the chase then? Nobody asked them to ride tempo for AG2R. They wanted him in the lead, but not by too much. Oh well, I guess trying to control thins is kinda' harder than it appears...

 

[TheDeliverator]

Why were they pulling at all?

Were they pulling... Or keeping the pace slow? Look at how much time the break lost in 5km after Ag2r took over.

 

[Anonymous]

Were they pulling... Or keeping the pace slow? Look at how much time the break lost in 5km after Ag2r took over.

Yes they were pulling. In fact, early in the stage the time was COMING DOWN when they were pulling. They then slowed some, but they were trying to maintain a distance, but weren't "blocking" in any way. Again, why was that THEIR RESPONSIBILITY? I'll answer for you, it wasn't.

 

[RhodriM]

Were Astana pulling, soft-pedalling or something else?

I missed the bits when they were at the front.

 

[TheDeliverator]

Yes they were pulling. In fact, early in the stage the time was COMING DOWN when they were pulling. They then slowed some, but they were trying to maintain a distance, but weren't "blocking" in any way. Again, why was that THEIR RESPONSIBILITY? I'll answer for you, it wasn't.

The clock does not confirm your statement.

 

[benpounder]

Methinks LA doth protest too much

perhaps, perhaps not. What rubbed me wrong about that comment (the posters, not lance's) was that I think I was singing a nice bit, only to have the choir come in too early, and way too strong.

 

[Anonymous]

Were Astana pulling, soft-pedalling or something else?

I missed the bits when they were at the front.

They were PULLING to keep a reasonable distance and they screwed up. If you watched the early part of the stage, there was a point where the field was strung out and the gap was closing, and guess who was on the front. If you answered "Astana" you would be correct.

 

[IndyJoe]

Why were they pulling at all? They DIDN'T HAVE YELLOW. They are as responsible as anyone. They pulled off with just 8 minutes? Why wouldn't someone take up the chase then? Nobody asked them to ride tempo for AG2R. They wanted him in the lead, but not by too much. Oh well, I guess trying to control thins is kinda' harder than it appears...

They were just riding tempo, as they have done in the last few stages. Obviously they didn't want the break to get too far ahead, so they set a "tempo" that would allow the break to finish around 8 to 9 minutes ahead. They were told by AG2R that they wouldn't chase to stay in yellow, and they didn't expect Garmin to chase.

 

[weremichael]

Hincapie a legend??? LOL...now that takes the cake!!!

This is the 14th Tour de France races he's competed in (two away from Joop Zoetemelk's record). He's had the yellow jersey once. I will say that his Classics record has been marred by a lot of bad luck though. But overall he could qualify as a "legend" by the time he retires (if he can beat Joop's record and win Paris-Roubaix). What would qualify him as a legend to you?

As someone said earlier.. you reap what you sow. Columbia (particularly Cav) doesn't go out of their way to be friends with much of the rest of the peleton and it came back to bite them.

I understand the rivalry between teams in the peloton. However, it does come down to individuals at some point doesn't it? George seems to be well liked and respected in the peloton. It was crappy what Garmin and Astana did to him personally.

If by "crappy" you mean "well deserved" then I agree...

I guess you have a different opinion of George than I do. I've ridden with him in a charity ride back home in Oregon. He was great to talk to and seemed really sincere. So we'll agree to disagree then.

 

[Anonymous]

The clock does not confirm your statement.

A. Evidently you were not watching the earlier part of the stage because the gap was coming DOWN and the field was STRUNG OUT and ASTANA was pulling. Then they called it off somewhat, but wanted to maintain a specific time gap to not let George get too much time. They screwed up. They pulled off and AG2R (you know, the team that should have been pulling since they have YELLOW) started pulling. When the gap got close, Garmin helped, and why not?

Again, if George REALLY wanted yellow, he would have EARNED it with his LEGS instead of relying on a reach around from his buddies.

 

[Anonymous]

I guess you have a different opinion of George than I do. I've ridden with him in a charity ride back home in Oregon. He was great to talk to and seemed really sincere. So we'll agree to disagree then.

I've ridden with him on group rides when he lived here.

I like George, but his team is cocky and they deserved to be fed some humble pie.

"#1 Cycling Team in the World" when it comes to whining tonight I'd say.

 

[Anonymous]

They were just riding tempo, as they have done in the last few stages. Obviously they didn't want the break to get too far ahead, so they set a "tempo" that would allow the break to finish around 8 to 9 minutes ahead. They were told by AG2R that they wouldn't chase to stay in yellow, and they didn't expect Garmin to chase.

They didn't expect AG2R to chase? Well, sucks for them I guess. Fact is that they had no reason to ride TEMPO. That is the responsibility of AG2R. I would also like to ask why initially they were trying to bring the break back, and then turned off the gas? Fact is that they wanted to gift something, and they didn't do a very good job. That happens in the world of cycling as it does everywhere. Control is an illusion. They pulled off after riding hard enough to leave a gap THAT COULD BE CLOSED, and AG2R took up chase. When Garmin saw that AG2R closed some but needed a little help to finish the job, they helped.

Again, Hincapie could have taken the jersey with his LEGS and not as a GIFT if he had wanted.

Astana is now in damage control mode, but the FACT is that they contributed to the outcome. PERIOD.

 

[weremichael]

I've ridden with him on group rides when he lived here.

I like George, but his team is cocky and they deserved to be fed some humble pie.

"#1 Cycling Team in the World" when it comes to whining tonight I'd say.

I agree that Highroad is an extremely cocky team (one might say for good cause if you go by victories alone). I'll agree they do need to come back to earth a bit. I'm just disappointed that the largest slice of pie was served to George.

 

[seidodge]

On the cav DQ, Robbie McEwan tweeted this (which in fairness to Mick Rogers he forwarded on)

"Cav didn't really move much, barrier did but looking over shoulder lining up Thor is what judges would have dq'd him for."

 

[indurain666]

A. Evidently you were not watching the earlier part of the stage because the gap was coming DOWN and the field was STRUNG OUT and ASTANA was pulling. Then they called it off somewhat, but wanted to maintain a specific time gap to not let George get too much time. They screwed up. They pulled off and AG2R (you know, the team that should have been pulling since they have YELLOW) started pulling. When the gap got close, Garmin helped, and why not?

Again, if George REALLY wanted yellow, he would have EARNED it with his LEGS instead of relying on a reach around from his buddies.

Yeah, I agree, well Garmin also tried to set up sprint for Farrar, if Hushovd and Cavendish pull out Farrar could wear green. I don't know, I think Garmin should work for his team instead of Columbia

That was GH's biggest mistake, when Ivanov took off and the other two guys started chasing he played some cat and mouse. Why? I don't know, the stage was gone for him. if he would have motored the break into the line he would have been wearing yellow tonight, and who knows perhaps tomorrow night too

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that Highroad is an extremely cocky team (one might say for good cause if you go by victories alone). I'll agree they do need to come back to earth a bit. I'm just disappointed that the largest slice of pie was served to George.

I would not have minded at all if he were in yellow. However, this is now becoming part of the "drama" perpetuated by the twitter fairies.

Also, the fact is that if he wanted it, it was 6 seconds up the road, and he had it in his legs to get it. He could have put in the effort the last 3K and gotten it, but he didn't. Oh well, the best laid plans of mice and men. Funny, Armstrong was supposed to take yellow after the TTT, and their attempt fell short with Armstrong being the rider the time was counted off of.

I find it quite funny how much complaining there is about things like this because this is SUPPOSED to be a RACE, and has been anything but.

 

[Anonymous]

@matkearns why we pulled so hard? When we started it was 6:00. When we stopped it was 8:40. Those are the facts...
Twitter from the Uniballer.

Well, I guess he doesn't realize that there is taped evidence that he is lying. They were stringing the peloton out when they took up the chase. They did back off, but there was a point where it was under 5 minutes (after having gone out to over 6) and guess who was pulling?

Again, they decided to try to manage a gap that was of their choosing, and they screwed up by not allowing a bigger gap. They didn't block. They maintained, and they did a piss poor job if their wish was to see Hincapie in yellow. Why didn't they "block" until the finish if that was their game?

 

[lean mean &green]

Again, if George REALLY wanted yellow, he would have EARNED it with his LEGS instead of relying on a reach around from his buddies.

I have always liked GH but today's events are a disappointment on a few levels. Firstly that he was unsuccessful, Secondly that he misread the race, and thirdly spoke to the media while emotionally charged.

Cooperation b/t teams is a part of racing and it is not as black and white as this but TFF is mostly correct.

Astana's role in bringing him back has been exagerated but even so is irrelevant.

I place more blame on Garmin but they're obviously not BFF's with Col/HTC.

At some point you have to read the race. It's a basic question of risk/reward. There is just as much glory in winning the stage as there is in getting yello for a single day (which is all he'd have held it for). When yello becomes less likely and you're an experienced racer in a small group you switch your focus. He seemed to have no interest in winning the stage. He gambled all of his chips on yellow and lost. A suprisingly dumb move for someone of his stature.

Ride YOUR bike. Read the race. Don't expect help. In time I think GH will begin to apply the blame more on himself.

 

[Kennf1]

Like it was said earlier I only recall seeing Rast and Murayev on the front, so it wasn't like Astana threw several guys on the front, just the 2 workhorses.

I don't know, looked to me like Astana had five guys on front at one point.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I am glad Hincapie didn't get to wear yellow, the guy is the Bobke of modern cycling, an idiot.

George may not be a scientist, and come off like a fairly simple guy from the south, but he isn't an idiot and his demeanor is nothing like Bobke.

I don't like his team that much for the reasons others have listed, but I like George's view on cycling, and truly hope that as the economy recovers Pla d'Adat Village comes off. Anyone not admiring, or supporting such a dream is no fan of cycling as I see it.

As to Cav's DQ (if holds) I think Robbie is right. The fact that he was looking for Thor gave the impression he wasn't trying to sprint as much as make sure Thor didn't get by. I think that's a weak reason for a DQ, but that's probably it. The thing is, I felt like Cav was fading a little anyway, and would have a seriously hard time through the Alps, while it looked like Thor was holding strong and had a pretty good shot of ending up in Green in Paris anyway.

 

[benpounder]

I understand the rivalry between teams in the peloton. However, it does come down to individuals at some point doesn't it? George seems to be well liked and respected in the peloton. It was crappy what Garmin and Astana did to him personally.

Well, when the arrogant individual is so well protected by an ambiviolent team, you dont have many options.

I'm not saying what Garmin did was proper, just that throwing them to the lions for what they did is a bit hypocritical.

 

[MKirilenko]

This race is getting too Astana-centered and they r not even hiding it. Its destroying the fun, all that calculating, giving up jerseys and cheering up LA and JB. Anyone else has a feeling it would be much, much, much.....much more fun with no Astana, and AC in Caisse, no TTT and proper mountains. Schlecks, Evans, Sastre, AC and others clash in the mountains, attacks, bonks. No 'going by the plan' and bs like that. Ehhh....

 

[Danilot]

I'm really looking forward to the "conversation" Bob Stapleton wants to have with Jonathan Vaughters. Maybe (probably) Columbia are too cocky and they should be humbler, but at least they win races, whereas Garmin gave the impression that they can only succeed in spoiling the success of others. It makes it even more disgusting that they did that to such a likeable rider as George.

Well, at the end of the year, we'll remember what every team did during the year and we'll be able to draw our own conclusions. Personally, I was hoping for Wiggins and Vandevelde to ride well in the Alps, but now I just hope they get kicked out of the back of the group as soon as possible.

 

[IndyJoe]

@matkearns why we pulled so hard? When we started it was 6:00. When we stopped it was 8:40. Those are the facts...
Twitter from the Uniballer.

Well, I guess he doesn't realize that there is taped evidence that he is lying. They were stringing the peloton out when they took up the chase. They did back off, but there was a point where it was under 5 minutes (after having gone out to over 6) and guess who was pulling?

Again, they decided to try to manage a gap that was of their choosing, and they screwed up by not allowing a bigger gap. They didn't block. They maintained, and they did a piss poor job if their wish was to see Hincapie in yellow. Why didn't they "block" until the finish if that was their game?

Obviously not going to change your mind, but it honestly seems as if you don't know much about professional cycling and team tactics. As soon as the route headed into the alps, Astana was responsible for controlling the race and setting the "tempo". AG2R stopped trying to set the pace. Astana was told that AG2R would not chase down the break. Garmin had no reason to chase. Astana set a "tempo" that would allow a finish of 8 or 9 minutes. They certainly weren't going to let the break go up to 15 minutes.

I'm not sure if you understand this, or how this will negatively impact Garmin the rest of the tour?

 

[jaylew]

My thoughts on today's events:

- No doubt in my mind Astana would have liked to see Hincapie in yellow. Columbia in yellow is better for them than AG2R in yellow, and I believe that personally, LA and JB would have really liked to see GH wear the jersey. That said, they weren't going to let him have 3-5 minutes as he is a good TTer and has shown flashes of climbing ability so they early in the stage they pout a couple of guys on the front to prevent the lead from ballooning too far.

- To anyone that's followed the sport in the US, it's been fairly obvious that JV feels like Garmin is the only truly "American" team and resents the support Astana and Columbia get from US fans. Throw in the Garmin/Columbia conflicts from this year and the battle for US sponsorship dollars and support, and it's not hard to see why they worked so hard in the last several Kms (I'm sure JV will deny it, of course). Petty? Perhaps, depending on where you stand, but that's racing.

- Despite that, I think it's really lame for JB and LA to condemn Garmin. Every team has its own tactics and Garmin has no responsibility to let Hincapie get yellow just because he's American. Anyway, it's certainly not Bruyneel and Armstrong's place to criticize. They have also used some fairly selfish and dubious tactics at times.

- George could have avoided it if he had just set a tempo once Ivanov got away instead of playing around in the group in the last kms. The whole time I was thinking, What is he doing?? Forget about racing for 2nd or 3rd on the stage! Christ, forget about racing for the win! Just get on the front and hammer if you want yellow! He has no one to blame but himself.

- I don't like Cav. Every time I hear him in an interview I wish someone would just slap him. But he got a really raw deal today. I've seen much worse at the end of sprints go unpunished. To top it off, it looked like it may have happened b/c the team was trying to keep the pace down a bit to put GH in yellow. It wasn't much of a "block" anyway. So now the Green jersey battle is likely over and it was one of the few exciting battles we've had so far in this Tour. I really hope they reverse their decision even if means Cav winds up in Green in Paris.