Official xc skiing world cup thread

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Mar 4, 2010
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Good to see Justyna beat Marit in what might be her (Kowa's) worst discipline. Maybe the female Tour wont be a complete bore afterall?

Cologna seemed stronger than Petter today. He looked much fresher after finishing. But I'm guessing Northug will just pick up too damn many bonus seconds before the final stage. The men's race is too sprinter friendly with the obscene amount of bonus secs. They should cut them down or compensate with a long interval start to give the diesels a decent chance.
 
Oct 23, 2009
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Tyler'sTwin said:
Good to see Justyna beat Marit in what might be her (Kowa's) worst discipline. Maybe the female Tour wont be a complete bore afterall?

Cologna seemed stronger than Petter today. He looked much fresher after finishing. But I'm guessing Northug will just pick up too damn many bonus seconds before the final stage. The men's race is too sprinter friendly with the obscene amount of bonus secs. They should cut them down or compensate with a long interval start to give the diesels a decent chance.
Many of the intermediate sprints are on hilltops this year.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Northug should be able to get into a dominant position with the bonuses. If I remember last year he was slack with the bonuses and was well behind on the long pursuit from Cortina, it was only the next day where he got some bonuses to get up into a good position overall? He should have a lead on that stage now and it will be up to the pack to chase him down. What sort of lead will he need for Cermis?
 
May 29, 2011
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maltiv said:
Many of the intermediate sprints are on hilltops this year.
Even so. In the final instance the hills are relatively short and since mass starts are typically raced on tempo intensity at the most, all the top dogs can go full gas anaerobically if someone decides to attack. At least it has seemed that way for a long time - no real (= sustainable, those that encourage attacking) gaps are opened on the hills. The men's stage from Toblach to Val di Fiemme is an exception, the hill is long, but it's then followed by 15k of downhill.

In sum: I dont mind sprint bonuses, but at the moment they are too generous. Didn't Cologna snatch some 4+min yesteryear, and wasn't Bauer the fastest skier without them? I think there's a discrepancy there.

Sure, they up the tempo on the hills and try to rip one another's legs and arms off or rather try to induce sprint-preventing fatigue upon the others, but as a spectator I'm not satisfied with this. It appears too sterile.

So we need hills of longer duration or a longish series of hills raced with the intensity above the threshold. What is missing is the incentive to attack. In cycling there are attacks on the MTFs because after 4hr or so the tops can sustain (about) an hour on the threshold and there is a very real threat of bonking in the finale if one doses the effort wrong.

The Alpe hits this concept spot on, although I bet no one will bonk on a 9k stage. But nonetheless a better climber can just ski away. However, hitting the concept right is only going half the distance, because I can't decide if I find the Alpe ski-able or not. IMO a 5k hill of half the steepness than the Alpe would in fact be better - gliding skills and technique would then feature even more. Again analogy to MTFs in cycling is apt enough: it is often so that the racing spectacle is best on the lower gradients, when the riders conclude they can actually benefit from attacking and the hill is not about mere surviving.

Also we need longer stages. The men cover what 120k over 11 days, and that's what half an hour per day? I bet they all put in 4hr / day while training. I know I know, the intensity is high, but come on - the tour is supposed to be the cream of the crap.

The skiers buffing up is but a function of this new sprint - or: intensity - driven race system, where power/weight ratio has become less important than before, and pure power / explosivity decides everything.

I think the new system is boring, or at least boredom-inducing, although the ideology behind its implementation is that the old system was boring. Then again I watch the races anyway, so perhaps my complaining is illegit. Also I wholeheartedly accept that my view of good racing might as well stand for boredom to many.

But to illustrate my point, this is how it is to me: Kollen 50k world cup in 2010 was boring although with Vittoz, Northug, Manificat, Piller Cottrer contesting in the fog it could have been Polish scale awesome, because Northug was always going to beat everyone in the sprint. The ladies WC 30k last year was not boring, because there were attacks that eliminated Björgen from doing so. In fact, to me the ladies' 30k was the best sporting event last year, hands down.

Gee, sorry for the rambling. :D I think I'll root for Manificat in the overall.
 
May 29, 2011
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Ferminal said:
Northug should be able to get into a dominant position with the bonuses. If I remember last year he was slack with the bonuses and was well behind on the long pursuit from Cortina, it was only the next day where he got some bonuses to get up into a good position overall? He should have a lead on that stage now and it will be up to the pack to chase him down. What sort of lead will he need for Cermis?

Last year I would have said he needs 45sec at the foot of the hill to be safe. Given his improvement this year, he probably clocks in the fastest time anyway. :rolleyes:

Edit: SV.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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I agree with most of what you're saying but I thought that Oslo 50 that you mentioned (or at least I think you mentioned given the names) was one of the more (if not the most) fascinating mass starts.
 
Aug 14, 2009
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I agree with very much of your reflection meat puppet. I actually think that xc skiing is better of going more away from the traditionale stadium like event it is now with short loops of 2-3k. The year the Kollen 50k was moved to Trondheim, they competed with 7,5km loops and that made it so hard that i was only 4 left in the end.
I think the sponsors have to look more to the tv audience than the relative few spectators on the stadium and realise that the sport is better of with making it exciting to watch on tv.

Another thing is that i think that the way northug is winning races, that it will be the start of making it more professional. Eventualy nations or teams want to win again and they will not care who, as long it is one from their team. So then we probably will se more people offering themself early in the race so that it will become harder for northug. But they will not do that as long as they dont get anything in return.
 
Apr 7, 2011
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meat puppet said:
Even so. In the final instance the hills are relatively short and since mass starts are typically raced on tempo intensity at the most, all the top dogs can go full gas anaerobically if someone decides to attack. At least it has seemed that way for a long time - no real (= sustainable, those that encourage attacking) gaps are opened on the hills. The men's stage from Toblach to Val di Fiemme is an exception, the hill is long, but it's then followed by 15k of downhill.

In sum: I dont mind sprint bonuses, but at the moment they are too generous. Didn't Cologna snatch some 4+min yesteryear, and wasn't Bauer the fastest skier without them? I think there's a discrepancy there.

Sure, they up the tempo on the hills and try to rip one another's legs and arms off or rather try to induce sprint-preventing fatigue upon the others, but as a spectator I'm not satisfied with this. It appears too sterile.

So we need hills of longer duration or a longish series of hills raced with the intensity above the threshold. What is missing is the incentive to attack. In cycling there are attacks on the MTFs because after 4hr or so the tops can sustain (about) an hour on the threshold and there is a very real threat of bonking in the finale if one doses the effort wrong.

The Alpe hits this concept spot on, although I bet no one will bonk on a 9k stage. But nonetheless a better climber can just ski away. However, hitting the concept right is only going half the distance, because I can't decide if I find the Alpe ski-able or not. IMO a 5k hill of half the steepness than the Alpe would in fact be better - gliding skills and technique would then feature even more. Again analogy to MTFs in cycling is apt enough: it is often so that the racing spectacle is best on the lower gradients, when the riders conclude they can actually benefit from attacking and the hill is not about mere surviving.

Also we need longer stages. The men cover what 120k over 11 days, and that's what half an hour per day? I bet they all put in 4hr / day while training. I know I know, the intensity is high, but come on - the tour is supposed to be the cream of the crap.

The skiers buffing up is but a function of this new sprint - or: intensity - driven race system, where power/weight ratio has become less important than before, and pure power / explosivity decides everything.

I think the new system is boring, or at least boredom-inducing, although the ideology behind its implementation is that the old system was boring. Then again I watch the races anyway, so perhaps my complaining is illegit. Also I wholeheartedly accept that my view of good racing might as well stand for boredom to many.

But to illustrate my point, this is how it is to me: Kollen 50k world cup in 2010 was boring although with Vittoz, Northug, Manificat, Piller Cottrer contesting in the fog it could have been Polish scale awesome, because Northug was always going to beat everyone in the sprint. The ladies WC 30k last year was not boring, because there were attacks that eliminated Björgen from doing so. In fact, to me the ladies' 30k was the best sporting event last year, hands down.

Gee, sorry for the rambling. :D I think I'll root for Manificat in the overall.

In my opinion mass starts should only be on really hard tracks.
Because 95% of the male mass start races come down to a bunch sprint of like 30 people on the last km. That's so boring.
There sghould be a lot more individual starts again. They show who really is the strongest and in my opinion they are more intersting to watch then those men mass start races.
I don't like the bonus seconds. That's simply a artificial try to creat excitment.
 
May 29, 2011
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roundabout said:
I agree with most of what you're saying but I thought that Oslo 50 that you mentioned (or at least I think you mentioned given the names) was one of the more (if not the most) fascinating mass starts.

I agree, it was from another planet compared with say the 2011 WC 50k race. But still it was handicapped by the fact that the outcome was pretty much fixed halfway through. Also it seemed to me that Vittoz & Manificat held something back at 30-35k, which, in hindsight, was probably the right decision since at least one of them popped. Piller Cottrer on the other hand burnt his matches while chasing, impressive as his move was.

But yes, I could have chosen another race to underline the point better. I think the opening phrase "even so" got stuck into my head and ended up determining every point I tried to make.

Also, better tick another cross, since Johaug and Justyna beat Björgen again. Is she a bit off?
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Sometimes the amount of bonuses available in the TdS are obscene, last year in a couple of the women's races you had Kowalczyk taking the intermediate bonuses and then just relaxing at the end of the stage because it was of no relevance to her, as she'd made so many gains on the intermediates. They perhaps need to offer intermediates like cycling - I'm not saying ape it exactly, but the 3-2-1 at intermediates then 10-6-4 at the end is pretty universal in cycling; it makes the intermediates contestable in tight races, but incentivises winning the race ahead of picking up the intermediates. I guess part of the worry is that too many races stay more or less together until near the end so time gaps are often very small among quite sizeable groups.

I'm not too bothered by the Alpe; I'd suggest a medium-steepness climb; I want it to be properly difficult and something unique and out of the ordinary, but the Alpe is perhaps too far. On the other hand, they don't just climb the Alpe, do they - there is some way on the flat before the base of the climb, so some skiers can aim to catch those in front on the flat and use them as pacemakers on the Alpe.
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Isn't there some sort of an uphill trophy in Poland this year?

Wonder who will enter it and what the course will be.

Edit: after checking it doesn't seem to be WC and the climb is Alpe Cermis like.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Teichmann applied the heat on the climb so I think he deserved it, no way the gap would have opened up without the fall though.
 
May 29, 2011
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A good race it was, but a shame that it was decided that way. No way Teichmann would have been able to match Northug's sprint. But as it was already said, he deserved it nevertheless for going on the climb.

Gotta give it to Manificat, the Russians, the Germans and of course Bauer in that succession for making the race though.

E: Waxless skis appear to have been the right choice. I think Teichmann was on them too.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Legkov had bad skis, scary how strong he was despite his skis. Manificat and Hellner also suffered from bad skis.
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Nastyy said:
Legkov had bad skis, scary how strong he was despite his skis. Manificat and Hellner also suffered from bad skis.
Didn't Hellner crash in the last difficult downhill bit?
 
May 29, 2011
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goggalor said:
Didn't Hellner crash in the last difficult downhill bit?
That was Rickardsson I think. But Hellner had bad skis for sure. Perhaps he could have hung onto the first group on a good day with good skis.

Nastyy's point about Legkov being very strong despite the skis was spot on.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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The Four Hills is already a complete farce. It's okay to jump in bad conditions as long as the precious Austrians don't have to jump in the same conditions as others.