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On the fence - an LA thread

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Mar 18, 2009
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Digger said:
Boring Lance years because of the USP train. One by one they burned the others off. How were the likes of George able to do this? :rolleyes:

Moment for me was flying home from America in 2000 and reading his book on the plane. I remembered thinking that this does not make sense. He went from dropping out of races because he was f***ed physically from chemo etc, to suddenly coming fourth in the Vuelta. The transformation was not credible and is something that Sally Jenkins tried to dress up in Hollywood speak with that week in the cabin. The other moment was the formula that he alluded to in this book that CC came up with. It was meant to be some kind of mathematical equation / formula for increased effectiveness as regards weight. But it was a vague pile of nonsense.

Why has Lance been 'picked' on? Name one other rider who has benefitted so much from doping. Name one other rider who has tried so hard to keep the Omerta in place. Name a rider who led a protest whereby other riders spat on a whistleblower. Name a rider who has bullied another clean rider. In 1998 the sport was at a crossroads. He won the tour in 1999 with the help of doping. He has played a large part in keeping the sport in the doldrums as regards doping.
Go to minute 4.40 on this clip, and tell me if there is someone else as brazen as this. Yet again using the cancer card.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4odJP-Zuw

One of the original questions was why worry about Armstrong doping when everyone else was doping. Well, Digger and others bring up a good point. According to the l'Equipe story, there were only 12 positives to EPO in the 1999 TdF and six belonged to Lance. So, it is quite obvious that doping was not prevalent in the 1999 peloton after the 1998 Festina affair. Some of the so-called hatred for Lance is borne from the fact that he made a mockery of the Tour of Redemption, which the 1999 TdF was called, blatantly supported the Omerta with outbursts against the likes of Bassons and Simeoni, profited from cancer, controlled the media like no other sportsperson has done, and is just generally a dislikable person based on his public persona.
 

Epoché

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Mar 2, 2010
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You don't have to be a hater to understand that that Armstrong may have doped. Just be careful that you don't start hating everything about him and seeing him as the source of all problems in your life and in the world. Some people make the mistake of Crossing that line and make a religion out of hating the guy and everything he does. That can't even stand his charity. Just be mindful not to end up like that.
 

Epoché

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Big GMaC said:
Most races before 91/92 and the arrival of Blood doping.

You could people losing 10 minutes one day, then winning by that much to following day. the volatility of the races has decreased as the drugs have been refined...

Blood doping has been around since the 70s.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Epoché said:
Blood doping has been around since the 70s.

As far as I know there's no evidence that blood doping was use in road cycling before 1990. The technology existed and it was used on track, but not apparently on the road.
 

Epoché

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Cerberus said:
As far as I know there's no evidence that blood doping was use in road cycling before 1990. The technology existed and it was used on track, but not apparently on the road.

My guess is only the elite tour winners would have had access to it in the 1980s. Some of the highest VO2 max's ever recorded were by tour winners in the 80s.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Epoch&#233 said:
My guess is only the elite tour winners would have had access to it in the 1980s. Some of the highest VO2 max's ever recorded were by tour winners in the 80s.

Another reason to dislike LA is he attracts the most unstable trolls to the message board.
 

Epoché

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Race Radio said:
Another reason to dislike LA is he attracts the most unstable trolls to the message board.

In this thread you called the OP, who simply said in a polite and reasonable way that he has seen all the evidence but is still not sure, an idiot who has a chemical imbalance. So you think everyone that disagrees with you is unstable.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Epoché said:
My guess is only the elite tour winners would have had access to it in the 1980s. Some of the highest VO2 max's ever recorded were by tour winners in the 80s.

That is possiblem but there is reason to think not. First of all there is as i said no evidence, not only is there no evidence against specific people, but no evidence that it went on at all. No confessions long after your career is over, no tel- all books from people who helped, not even rumours that this or that guy was using it. Secondly the VOmax might have been high but actual performance measured as estimate power output or climbing times from specific mountains was lower than today. There's also no examples of the kind of miraculous improvements that we've seen in the post-EPO era in for example Armstrong, Landis, Riis or Indurain.
 

Epoché

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Cerberus said:
That is possiblem but there is reason to think not. First of all there is as i said no evidence, not only is there no evidence against specific people, but no evidence that it went on at all. No confessions long after your career is over, no tel- all books from people who helped, not even rumours that this or that guy was using it. Secondly the VOmax might have been high but actual performance measured as estimate power output or climbing times from specific mountains was lower than today. There's also no examples of the kind of miraculous improvements that we've seen in the post-EPO era in for example Armstrong, Landis, Riis or Indurain.

You maybe right, but I'm still very suspicious about certain tour wins in the 1980s. I guess we may never know.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Epoch&#233 said:
You maybe right, but I'm still very suspicious about certain tour wins in the 1980s. I guess we may never know.

Well, we might know if you're right, but we'll never know if I am, the nature of the beast, What Tour wins is it that you're suspicious of? I didn't follow Tours in the 80's since I was to busy being born and learning to walk.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Epoché said:
My guess is only the elite tour winners would have had access to it in the 1980s. Some of the highest VO2 max's ever recorded were by tour winners in the 80s.

VO2 max is not related to blood doping. Blood doping allows riders with relatively low VO2 maxs to do things they otherwise would not be able to do, like win seven TdFs. :D

The US track team were experimenting with blood doping in 1984, and were widely condemned for doing so. The professional peloton probably started using blood doping in the late 80s or early 90s.
 

Epoché

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elapid said:
VO2 max is not related to blood doping. Blood doping allows riders with relatively low VO2 maxs to do things they otherwise would not be able to do, like win seven TdFs. :D

The US track team were experimenting with blood doping in 1984, and were widely condemned for doing so. The professional peloton probably started using blood doping in the late 80s or early 90s.

Not if they are doped up when they take the test.
 
Feb 1, 2010
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I've never liked Armstrong going back to when he won the World Champs in '93. I was indifferent to his comeback after cancer, then the dislike grew back as he was winning the Tour 7 times. Part of it has to do with all the attention he got/gets which to some extent isn't his fault. When you win the biggest race on the calendar 7 times that happens. Do I believe he doped? Yeah, along with a lot of others. I don't believe in the idea that had no one doped he would have won anyway. Right now I'm just waiting for someone else to come along to take the spotlight off him. What else can change the attention he gets and I believe craves?
 
It seems that what it comes down to is that he has such a huge (from my point of view, objectionable) personality that many knowledgeable bike fans take umbrage to the fact that he gets so much attention, for the following reasons - a) the attention given to him overshadows and disrespects the rich history of the sport and the breadth of exciting competition that is on display year round, and b) the attention given to him is undeserved, since he is a douchebag. Given strong feelings about either/both of these 2 things, I can understand how it's hard to resist the desire to respond to new posters believing the Armstrong mythology, even if the same arguments have been stated time and again. I think people who feel that way can respect people who are informed and 'on the fence', it's just blind rabid fanboyism that makes people berzerk.

Thoughtforfood said:
The seminal moment for many. Also, the media vomit he spewed at Betsy Andreau contributed significantly to my disdain. But as the years go by, I just really want him to go away. He is a has-been who needs to sell some stuff to maintain his Michelob Ultra lifestyle. I think he is famous enough to do that without losing any more Tour de Frances.

Agreed. I remember cheering for him to lose in 2004 and 2005 so hard, and realizing last year that it would for sure happen, I thought I would take much more pleasure from it than I did. Now I just want him to leave.

Sidenote 1 - there are 2 'talking about talking about LA' threads in the clinic, and no 'talking about LA' threads. Is that progress? Probably not.

Sidenote 2 - sure is funny to watch BPC try to keep some restraint and not get banned again. tick - tick - tick...
 
Feb 1, 2010
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Last years Tour was really tough to watch because I thought LA and Bruyneel were trying real hard to marginalize Contador. Which would thus give him no chance to win the Tour. Hopefully this season is LA's last.
 
Epoché said:
You don't have to be a hater to understand that that Armstrong may have doped. Just be careful that you don't start hating everything about him and seeing him as the source of all problems in your life and in the world. Some people make the mistake of Crossing that line and make a religion out of hating the guy and everything he does. That can't even stand his charity. Just be mindful not to end up like that.

Tell you what, you find me another rider who pulled something like Lance done on Simeoni, who tried to bully someone like Bassons out of a race.

Find me a rider who makes big announcements like the supposed testing programme last year and then doesnt follow true, who takes huge apperance fees that causes races to be shortened and then drops out the moment it rains but tries to hide behind the cancer angle.

Find me a guy who tries to screw his clearly superior team-mate over and behaves like a baby when he is beaten fairly and ropes his mates in to join in slating the superior person.

Theres might be a rider who done one or some of these things but only one guy who has done all these things which makes him the easiest guy to dislike.

The only rider that sounds anywhere similar to Lance was Hinault and he was before my time, from what I have read he was not liked in the peloton or among the French public but he still wasnt on the level of Armstrong.
 

Mallorca Man

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Mar 6, 2010
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skidmark said:
Sidenote 2 - sure is funny to watch BPC try to keep some restraint and not get banned again. tick - tick - tick...

Yeah it's a struggle trying to stick to the special rules Susan has for me. Funny at times as others are allowed to run riot.

She sure hates me.
 

Mallorca Man

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progressor said:
You're hardly my favourite poster as well mate, but how about you try the post not poster concept of message boards for a while.

RaceRadio is allowed to do what the F he likes. He claims he's never been warned for his persistent trolling.

There is literally nothing he can do to get banned. Lucky fella.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Mallorca Man said:
Yeah it's a struggle trying to stick to the special rules Susan has for me. Funny at times as others are allowed to run riot.

She sure hates me.

Well it's a pleasure to have you at least admit to a new alias for once. My suggestion is to try and branch out this time - contribute to topics that don't involve Lance Armstrong. Stop the back and forth with the 3-4 people you dislike. Sure, you are all guilty of sidetracking the threads, but they get to stick around because they contribute to the forum with 90% of their posts.

You are of course free to ignore this advice, but if so... tick, tick, tick.

EIDT: Ha! You were banned in the 30 seconds it took me to type that. Priceless!
 
Nov 24, 2009
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unsheath said:
Gone in 5 posts. That's just awesome!!

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Susan Did It