Opinions on Wiggins

[Bag_O_Wallet]

So you think this is all a pro-wrestling style scripted fake drama storyline? I think we can agree that cycling is in trouble if that is in fact the case.

Not so much fake as truth-inspired drama.

 

[Winterfold]

Dude, have you looked at the course for the Giro? That is crazy talk.

Yeah, there is that small detail.

I was thinking if it's not that competitive a field then maybe the pace will not be so killer as the Tour and he can wheelsuck while the horrible difficult stages are won by real mountain goats who lose big chunks of time in the TT. And Sastre gets ill or doesnt show.

But he would need to get the jersey in the TTT and keep it. Looking at yesterday's farce I doubt that will happen. Especially not over Stage 20.

Just a bit of wishful thinking and armchair DSing to while the Winter away.

PS I have looked at the course loads there are some great hills and lumps etc

 

[the big ring]

This is actually going to sound slightly ***. I agree with McQuaid on the Sky-Garmin biff.

Wiggins jumping boat set a bad precedent. McQuaid said just after the announcement that Wiggins was leaving Garmin that the rules for team transfers will have to be audited and if necessary, made stricter to protect team interests and contractual obligations. Breaking contracts is a big deal! Anyone who has studied contract law and accounting theory (it covers a topic known as contract theory) will understand what I am talking about. There are levers, mechanisms and a deep reasoning of how contracts came about and why they exist. Jumping ship because you want to breaks most of the underlying theory. Is it right? I'll leave that to the thread to determine, but I've noticed more and more forumists stating a new found lack of enthusiasm for the Austin Powers inspired Brit on team Sky.

So yeah, I agree with McQuaid. Hopefully other riders don't get it in their mind that when a fat cheque is waved their way they can tuck tale and ditch their contractual obligations.

You are very naive.

The main problem UCI have with contract breaking will be the incredible amount of money exchanging hands, with them receiving NONE of it.

The UCI will be stepping in to create a process whereby the team / rider has to pay UCI a fee to leave late, thus generating more UCI revenue, and providing legitimate bribery avenues.

 

[D Avoid]

Swiggins

I already pointed out a few days ago, what his real problem is, as long as he is in the limelight, he will be unable to cope or behave properly. All the famous people I know or have met, can not deal with it. They wake up every day wondering how long it will be before they are found out, having gone to bed the night before hoping not to wake up in the morning. There will be some great performances, followed by outrageous behaviour. As to where the rails and the rider part company, that is always hard to predict but it will happen as the individual has no say in the matter, at all. Some of you already know this, others will find it an unbelieveable scenario. I don't actually want it to happen but inevitability has a greater role to play in all this than my hope that God might grant him the serenity.

 

[Lifeshape]

Yeah, there is that small detail.

I was thinking if it's not that competitive a field then maybe the pace will not be so killer as the Tour and he can wheelsuck while the horrible difficult stages are won by real mountain goats who lose big chunks of time in the TT. And Sastre gets ill or doesnt show.

But he would need to get the jersey in the TTT and keep it. Looking at yesterday's farce I doubt that will happen. Especially not over Stage 20.

Just a bit of wishful thinking and armchair DSing to while the Winter away.

PS I have looked at the course loads there are some great hills and lumps etc

I may be missing it, but I thought there was a transitional stage betwixt a mountain top finish stage... I'll continue to study and report back...

 

[King Of Molehill]

So you think this is all a pro-wrestling style scripted fake drama storyline? I think we can agree that cycling is in trouble if that is in fact the case.

Not fake but definitely taking advantage of the situation to create more drama than really exists. I believe the type of professional bike racing that many of us enjoy is in trouble because it is in real danger of becoming a form of 'entertainment' rather than a sport of endurance. If you take the Lance Armstrong thread in these forums as an example it clearly represents a side of the sport that appeals to the 'drama', which is fine but for me it is becoming more common for people to fret about a cyclist's personal life, morals, ethics and whatnot than it is to delight in a beautiful victory or agony of defeat. There was a time when one could associate with the suffering that these men put themselves through for the sport and that makes it special, at least for me. But the way racing is covered by the media and the way in which some professionals conduct themselves has entered a realm of entertainment and drama that I find difficult to associate with and therefore am genuinely worried for the sport. A good example for me this past year was the TDF in which I honestly could care less about the drama between Lance and Alberto, Alberto did what he had to on the road and that was that. The rest of it was so unreal and still is. On the other hand I did connect with what happened between Thor Hushovld and Mark Cavendish. The day Thor took off in the mountains to show Mark that he deserved to be wearing the green jersey, kissed it while on TV in the mountains to show how much he loved it and would do anything for it was what bike racing is about. I hope we have more moments like that this year.

 

[timmers]

You are very naive.

The main problem UCI have with contract breaking will be the incredible amount of money exchanging hands, with them receiving NONE of it.

The UCI will be stepping in to create a process whereby the team / rider has to pay UCI a fee to leave late, thus generating more UCI revenue, and providing legitimate bribery avenues.

Unfortunately all of us unless Vaughters or Wiggins or their team are on here we have no idea how much Wiggins paid to be released.

I think you sign a contract you stick to it unless the other party breaks it!

Remember Wiggins is Belgium with an English mother and Australian father so what hope is there?

Too make matters worse his former friend the drug cheat Millar is Maltese!!

Also Sky is not owned by GB Cycling but Sky Broadcasting who have a management contract with Millar's close friend David Brailsford. So technically you could say tha Sky are an Australian team registered in GB.

 

[Galic Ho]

You are very naive.

The main problem UCI have with contract breaking will be the incredible amount of money exchanging hands, with them receiving NONE of it.

The UCI will be stepping in to create a process whereby the team / rider has to pay UCI a fee to leave late, thus generating more UCI revenue, and providing legitimate bribery avenues.

I love how I am the naive one. I've studied contract law. What you propose is borderline illegal. The UCI cannot override EU laws. Nice try. The money would go to the team holding the contract. This isn't UEFA and FIFA for crying out loud.

As for my previous comment. Wiggins set a very bad precedent. His move opened the door, to others to mimic his move. Bad for business and bad for teams. Those holding contracts loose out. I can see contracts getting stricter for riders. Only way what you described happens is if the UCI can get the EU to agree. I don't see it happening anytime in the next 5 years. Wiggins got lucky. All it takes is one egg to unbalance the cart.

 

[bobbins]

Unfortunately all of us unless Vaughters or Wiggins or their team are on here we have no idea how much Wiggins paid to be released.

I think you sign a contract you stick to it unless the other party breaks it!

Remember Wiggins is Belgium with an English mother and Australian father so what hope is there?

Too make matters worse his former friend the drug cheat Millar is Maltese!!

Also Sky is not owned by GB Cycling but Sky Broadcasting who have a management contract with Millar's close friend David Brailsford. So technically you could say tha Sky are an Australian team registered in GB.

Wiggins is British and Millar is Scottish, place of birth doesn't really matter too much.

Many of the strings at Sky are being pulled by Dave Millars sister who is Dave Brailsfords PA and seems to be a permanent fixture up the backsides of anyone who had any influence in the team. Brailsford and FMilar had to let Sky have the licence and be the main management of the team. Brailsford is still doing very, very well out of his 2 jobs though.

Sky is as British as Barloworld was but gets free support from British Cycling. Some see it as the Scott Sunderland retirement junket.

I can only imagine how pleased the GB track teams are that their hard work over the past years has translated in a bunch of foreigners getting mega salaries with a pro team whilst they are still on basic lottery grants!

 

[timmers]

Well the basic lottery grants used to be GBP25k so not to shabby. What do they get on Rapha or Endura? SFA?

I am of the view that you can learn a lot from a person's heritage so I am not surprised by Wiggins or Millar!

 

[Galic Ho]

I don't think it's position at the tour that matters for him this upcoming year... it's time difference. To a certain extent I think placing gets too much focus. If Wiggins finishes 6th, but is only a minute out of 2nd, I think that says a lot... specifically it says if there were another long ITT like in most tours, he probably WOULD have gotten second. But if he finishes 4th, but 5 minutes out of 2nd and 4 minutes out of 3rd... it shows he's got no real chance of winning a tour.

Can't fault that. looking at the overall picture that incorporates time gaps, stages and GC placings. I still see him losing over 5 minutes to Contador. Which would be about the same as 2009.

 

[BroDeal]

Can't fault that. looking at the overall picture that incorporates time gaps, stages and GC placings. I still see him losing over 5 minutes to Contador. Which would be about the same as 2009.

I think he will crack on one of the two Tourmalet stages and lose huge amounts of time.

 

[Galic Ho]

Unfortunately all of us unless Vaughters or Wiggins or their team are on here we have no idea how much Wiggins paid to be released.

I think you sign a contract you stick to it unless the other party breaks it!

Remember Wiggins is Belgium with an English mother and Australian father so what hope is there?

Too make matters worse his former friend the drug cheat Millar is Maltese!!

Also Sky is not owned by GB Cycling but Sky Broadcasting who have a management contract with Millar's close friend David Brailsford. So technically you could say tha Sky are an Australian team registered in GB.

Sky Broadcasting are a subsidary of News Limited. A few year back at the annual general shareholders meeting, the vote was passed to move the company from the Australian Stock Exchange as a publicly listed company and become a publicly listed company on Wall Street. Technically the company is Australian, as is Fox, but they are based in the US. Confused? Sky is essentially a British registered team under British management, sponsored by Sky Broadcasting, who are owned by a company that is in spirit Australian and grown from aussie roots, but has moved to US pastures to centralise all their affiliated subsidiaries. The Brits have adopted them and that is wait it boils down to. Gives the aussies and yanks something to laugh at when appropriate, cause we all like digging and ripping off one another.

 

[Galic Ho]

I think he will crack on one of the two Tourmalet stages and lose huge amounts of time.

Same here. I was agreeing with the theory of Kurtsinc, not the actual times. I think he'll crack to, but I'll wait till we get closer to July before I take a punt on which stage. The language used by the Sky supporters won't be negative and label it "cracking", despite that is what it will be.

 

[craig1985]

I love how I am the naive one. I've studied contract law. What you propose is borderline illegal. The UCI cannot override EU laws. Nice try. The money would go to the team holding the contract. This isn't UEFA and FIFA for crying out loud.

As for my previous comment. Wiggins set a very bad precedent. His move opened the door, to others to mimic his move. Bad for business and bad for teams. Those holding contracts loose out. I can see contracts getting stricter for riders. Only way what you described happens is if the UCI can get the EU to agree. I don't see it happening anytime in the next 5 years. Wiggins got lucky. All it takes is one egg to unbalance the cart.

Since I get the latest issue of Pro Cycling Magazine sent to me, JV talks about how the transfer system in cycling should work.Basically what he proposes is that if a team wishes to sign a rider under contract with another team, the former team's management approach the latter's team management about the rider. If the rider is interested, he will say so, and he gets his agent to do all the work and try and seal the transfer.

Then once that is done, the rider is either traded for a rider of similar ability (say a rider that is ranked 16th or 21st), or in exchange, a compensation deal can be arranged based on their ranking and it is agreed on. Rider changes teams.

 

[craig1985]

I think he will crack on one of the two Tourmalet stages and lose huge amounts of time.

I think it will be the stage that finishes on top of the Tourmalet. The other one is a downhill descent, so he can go downhill like a nutcase to get back on, or pick somebody like Dario Cioni (who is a good descender) and put him in a breakaway and when/if Wiggins gets dropped, Cioni can pace him back into the peloton.

For the stage that finishes on the Tourmalet, at this stage I would be placing money on Contador.

 

[Galic Ho]

Since I get the latest issue of Pro Cycling Magazine sent to me, JV talks about how the transfer system in cycling should work.Basically what he proposes is that if a team wishes to sign a rider under contract with another team, the former team's management approach the latter's team management about the rider. If the rider is interested, he will say so, and he gets his agent to do all the work and try and seal the transfer.

Then once that is done, the rider is either traded for a rider of similar ability (say a rider that is ranked 16th or 21st), or in exchange, a compensation deal can be arranged based on their ranking and it is agreed on. Rider changes teams.

Sounds good. Rider equity and honest leveraging. Everyone gets what they want. Good idea.

 

[blackcat]

the trade aspect is absurd. Coming from the US pro sports example. Wont work. Too many teams are aligned along national lines.

I see no reason why it is necessary, those contracts, must come under some jurisdiction for contract law, and be recognised by reciprocal international law treaties. They trump UK employment law, when a rider will ply his trade in the same place/jurisdiction on the continent.

JV just needs to save some face. If you took this to the commercial workplace, this entire show would be trivial. Wiggins just did it poorly, if indeed he wanted to ride for Sky, and did not speak to JV since August. Confirms everything about the guy, and everyone in the sport knew he was moving, and knew what a disloyal SOB this guy is. JV should be happy with the cash, and seeing the back of this bum.

 

[pmcg76]

Not fake but definitely taking advantage of the situation to create more drama than really exists. I believe the type of professional bike racing that many of us enjoy is in trouble because it is in real danger of becoming a form of 'entertainment' rather than a sport of endurance. If you take the Lance Armstrong thread in these forums as an example it clearly represents a side of the sport that appeals to the 'drama', which is fine but for me it is becoming more common for people to fret about a cyclist's personal life, morals, ethics and whatnot than it is to delight in a beautiful victory or agony of defeat. There was a time when one could associate with the suffering that these men put themselves through for the sport and that makes it special, at least for me. But the way racing is covered by the media and the way in which some professionals conduct themselves has entered a realm of entertainment and drama that I find difficult to associate with and therefore am genuinely worried for the sport. A good example for me this past year was the TDF in which I honestly could care less about the drama between Lance and Alberto, Alberto did what he had to on the road and that was that. The rest of it was so unreal and still is. On the other hand I did connect with what happened between Thor Hushovld and Mark Cavendish. The day Thor took off in the mountains to show Mark that he deserved to be wearing the green jersey, kissed it while on TV in the mountains to show how much he loved it and would do anything for it was what bike racing is about. I hope we have more moments like that this year.

+100

I asked a question elsewhere if people who found the sport more interesting when Lance was competing was in fact due to the actual racing or the hyped up drama.The few who reply did admit it was more because of the hype and I thought that was just sad

Personally, I loved cycling because of the cycling, the stunning scenery, the battles etc not so much the personalities. When I started following the sport 20 years ago, it was about the racing, yes personalities were relevant but in context to the sport overall.

I detest the modern obsession with celebrity, the over-saturated media culture. Reality TV, Pop-idol or whatever crap and the way any old idiot is elevated to 'celeb' status and the media both feeds and maintains this rubbish. Sport aint much better, the way Sky TV hypes the Premier League is just funny. I dont watch anything on television anymore, I do have a basic Sky package but thats purely because Europsort is included.

This sort of media BS has crept into cycling over the last decade, you just have too look at the way cycling magazines have evolved over the same period. Its definitely worse when a ceratain rider is around, because the coverage was returning to normal level in his absence, thats why I was ****ed when he announced his comeback because I knew what was gonna happen and thats the way its gone.

All this twittering and *****ing is akin to the wrestlers doing their big speeches before and after the events, its pathetic. I agree that the sport is changing for the worse.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

+100

I asked a question elsewhere if people who found the sport more interesting when Lance was competing was in fact due to the actual racing or the hyped up drama.The few who reply did admit it was more because of the hype and I thought that was just sad

Personally, I loved cycling because of the cycling, the stunning scenery, the battles etc not so much the personalities. When I started following the sport 20 years ago, it was about the racing, yes personalities were relevant but in context to the sport overall.

I detest the modern obsession with celebrity, the over-saturated media culture. Reality TV, Pop-idol or whatever crap and the way any old idiot is elevated to 'celeb' status and the media both feeds and maintains this rubbish. Sport aint much better, the way Sky TV hypes the Premier League is just funny. I dont watch anything on television anymore, I do have a basic Sky package but thats purely because Europsort is included.

This sort of media BS has crept into cycling over the last decade, you just have too look at the way cycling magazines have evolved over the same period. Its definitely worse when a ceratain rider is around, because the coverage was returning to normal level in his absence, thats why I was ****ed when he announced his comeback because I knew what was gonna happen and thats the way its gone.

All this twittering and *****ing is akin to the wrestlers doing their big speeches before and after the events, its pathetic. I agree that the sport is changing for the worse.

I don't see bike racing being in trouble. The various cults of personality won't ever change the poetics of bike racing.

Personally, I think the public squabbles of Lance/Alberto/JV/Wiggo etc are clever attempts to polarize opinions in order to create/maintain fanaticism. Bottom line, I think fanaticism is good for the sport, because fanatics tend to spend their own time and money advertising for sponsors.

 

[kurtinsc]

Can't fault that. looking at the overall picture that incorporates time gaps, stages and GC placings. I still see him losing over 5 minutes to Contador. Which would be about the same as 2009.

Well yes. But if you notice I referred everything to second. I don't see anyone within 3-4 minutes of Contador.

 

[the big ring]

I love how I am the naive one. I've studied contract law. What you propose is borderline illegal. The UCI cannot override EU laws. Nice try. The money would go to the team holding the contract. This isn't UEFA and FIFA for crying out loud.

...

Here you say UCI cannot override EU laws and later you agree that trading riders for money or another rider sounds like a good idea. Sigh.

Believe me. The only reason UCI are kicking up a fuss is because they are getting nothing (no $$) for the transfer. They can paint it all they want, any colour they like, but they are only interested in

1. having more power
2. having more money.

end of story. To say anything else is pure naivety. I've studied contract law too, btw, big friggin deal.

 

[Ripper]

I would quit Garmin, because JV is gay, Garmins jerseys are homo, and star rider their sprinter I forgot his name is a quitter. Other than that if I was Wiggo I would ride for SKY out of patriotism. Oh yeah the sprinters name is faRRaR. Good thing Tom D. is there to save the day.

? ?????????????

 

[Hugh Januss]

? ?????????????

Drunk posting can be an ugly thing.

 

[Ripper]

Drunk posting can be an ugly thing.

No kidding. Wow!