Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-)

[Echoes]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

Philippe Bordas in his "Forcenés" described the period dealt with here as the one in which sprints lost their beauty.

I tried to translate what he said (it was quite hard because his prose is quite poetic, I could not translate everything).

"Freddy Maertens only took Demeyer's wheel, Cipollini procured several identical cupboards who ground down the atmosphere for himself. Taller, larger and more "rouleur" than him - Maciste from the Italian countryside -, who better than a locomotive followed by wagons, form a delirious agregate of linked motors. When the squadrist get going nobody dare overtake them. When Cipollini get out of it nobody dare defy him. The sprinters without squadrons, the balkanized mercenaries are pirating between axles, like hobos.
[...] Cipollini destroys the sprint that Maertens denied. [...] Darrigade forced luck, Cipollini suppressed uncertainty. He institutes kinematics. He sprints backwards. The winner is not the one who accelerates the more but the one who slows down the least.

Twelve stages in the Tour of France, 42 at the Tour of Italy, Cipollini wins a Milan-Sanremo, a World Championship. Nobody remembers any of his feats. But his teeth. Cipollini is of the era of helmets, glasses and cruel getup ! He vainquishes in a Spiderman outfit. In a tormented soul tunics, incisors on the outside. [...] He's all showing off, looking his best. He's got bad taste. [...] He's a stage win stealer lacking courage on the approach of the Alps.

[...] Cipollini is the celeripede of the democratized ***** [clinic talk censored] era. He leaves the scepter to a clone: Petacchi - employed by another soap brand. [...]

I even miss Guimard and his broken knees and little Rik III [Van Linden], their electrocuted faces.

We could only add Petacchi left the scepter to another clone Cavendish, himself leaving it to yet another one, Kittel. Bordas disliked Guimard and Van Linden for sticking in the wheels and jumping at the last moment (the McEwen type). He dedicated a whole chapter to the history of sprints: "The Art of Sprinting". It's very nicely written in French. He goes all the way back to Charles Pélissier. Though being French he missed the greatness of Pietro Linari and Jules Van Hevel.

Anyway the heydays of sprinting are prior to the period considered here: Patrick Sercu and Freddy Maertens, those were genuine sprinters. They did not really need a sprint train and did part of the chasing behind breakaways THEMSELVES!

The best contemporary sprinter is Gregory Baugé though. No question about it.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

Philippe Bordas in his "Forcenés" described the period dealt with here as the one in which sprints lost their beauty.

I tried to translate what he said (it was quite hard because his prose is quite poetic, I could not translate everything).

"Freddy Maertens only took Demeyer's wheel, Cipollini procured several identical cupboards who ground down the atmosphere for himself. Taller, larger and more "rouleur" than him - Maciste from the Italian countryside -, who better than a locomotive followed by wagons, form a delirious agregate of linked motors. When the squadrist get going nobody dare overtake them. When Cipollini get out of it nobody dare defy him. The sprinters without squadrons, the balkanized mercenaries are pirating between axles, like hobos.
[...] Cipollini destroys the sprint that Maertens denied. [...] Darrigade forced luck, Cipollini suppressed uncertainty. He institutes kinematics. He sprints backwards. The winner is not the one who accelerates the more but the one who slows down the least.

Twelve stages in the Tour of France, 42 at the Tour of Italy, Cipollini wins a Milan-Sanremo, a World Championship. Nobody remembers any of his feats. But his teeth. Cipollini is of the era of helmets, glasses and cruel getup ! He vainquishes in a Spiderman outfit. In a tormented soul tunics, incisors on the outside. [...] He's all showing off, looking his best. He's got bad taste. [...] He's a stage win stealer lacking courage on the approach of the Alps.

[...] Cipollini is the celeripede of the democratized ***** [clinic talk censored] era. He leaves the scepter to a clone: Petacchi - employed by another soap brand. [...]

I even miss Guimard and his broken knees and little Rik III [Van Linden], their electrocuted faces.

We could only add Petacchi left the scepter to another clone Cavendish, himself leaving it to yet another one, Kittel. Bordas disliked Guimard and Van Linden for sticking in the wheels and jumping at the last moment (the McEwen type). He dedicated a whole chapter to the history of sprints: "The Art of Sprinting". It's very nicely written in French. He goes all the way back to Charles Pélissier. Though being French he missed the greatness of Pietro Linari and Jules Van Hevel.

Anyway the heydays of sprinting are prior to the period considered here: Patrick Sercu and Freddy Maertens, those were genuine sprinters. They did not really need a sprint train and did part of the chasing behind breakaways THEMSELVES!

The best contemporary sprinter is Gregory Baugé though. No question about it.

Only if you consider the best sprinter to mean the fastest. How would Baugé do into a headwind, or on a slight uphill gradient, or having found himself boxed in? How would he deal with a roundabout at 500m to go? How well could he hold a wheel? How well would he select the right gear? How aero could he get on a road bike? How would he fare after a long day in the saddle? What is his day to day recovery like?

There are a lot more skills to being a top sprinter than just speed - even in this day and age.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

Philippe Bordas in his "Forcenés" described the period dealt with here as the one in which sprints lost their beauty.

I tried to translate what he said (it was quite hard because his prose is quite poetic, I could not translate everything).

"Freddy Maertens only took Demeyer's wheel, Cipollini procured several identical cupboards who ground down the atmosphere for himself. Taller, larger and more "rouleur" than him - Maciste from the Italian countryside -, who better than a locomotive followed by wagons, form a delirious agregate of linked motors. When the squadrist get going nobody dare overtake them. When Cipollini get out of it nobody dare defy him. The sprinters without squadrons, the balkanized mercenaries are pirating between axles, like hobos.
[...] Cipollini destroys the sprint that Maertens denied. [...] Darrigade forced luck, Cipollini suppressed uncertainty. He institutes kinematics. He sprints backwards. The winner is not the one who accelerates the more but the one who slows down the least.

Twelve stages in the Tour of France, 42 at the Tour of Italy, Cipollini wins a Milan-Sanremo, a World Championship. Nobody remembers any of his feats. But his teeth. Cipollini is of the era of helmets, glasses and cruel getup ! He vainquishes in a Spiderman outfit. In a tormented soul tunics, incisors on the outside. [...] He's all showing off, looking his best. He's got bad taste. [...] He's a stage win stealer lacking courage on the approach of the Alps.

[...] Cipollini is the celeripede of the democratized ***** [clinic talk censored] era. He leaves the scepter to a clone: Petacchi - employed by another soap brand. [...]

I even miss Guimard and his broken knees and little Rik III [Van Linden], their electrocuted faces.

We could only add Petacchi left the scepter to another clone Cavendish, himself leaving it to yet another one, Kittel. Bordas disliked Guimard and Van Linden for sticking in the wheels and jumping at the last moment (the McEwen type). He dedicated a whole chapter to the history of sprints: "The Art of Sprinting". It's very nicely written in French. He goes all the way back to Charles Pélissier. Though being French he missed the greatness of Pietro Linari and Jules Van Hevel.

Anyway the heydays of sprinting are prior to the period considered here: Patrick Sercu and Freddy Maertens, those were genuine sprinters. They did not really need a sprint train and did part of the chasing behind breakaways THEMSELVES!

The best contemporary sprinter is Gregory Baugé though. No question about it.

Only if you consider the best sprinter to mean the fastest. How would Baugé do into a headwind, or on a slight uphill gradient, or having found himself boxed in? How would he deal with a roundabout at 500m to go? How well could he hold a wheel? How well would he select the right gear? How aero could he get on a road bike? How would he fare after a long day in the saddle? What is his day to day recovery like?

There are a lot more skills to being a top sprinter than just speed - even in this day and age.

+ 1

Just look at Guardini and Pelucchi. Or Chicchi in the past. Based purely on speed, there really on top. But sprinting is indeed way more then just pure speed.

 

[Mr.White]

I also think the best sprinters are coming from earlier era. Guys like Rik I, Darrigade, Poblet, Rik II, Sercu, Maertens...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

FWIW, given that it was a "doping no object" thread, the Fantasy Doping Draft is an interesting guide to what people thought of the relative levels of sprinters - since the objective was to pick the best team with no caring about ethics, with the timeframe being 1990 - 2014.

These were the sprinters picked and where they were picked. Although I personally picked Jalabert and it wasn't to sprint, cos I picked the 1995 Vuelta version of him. It's pretty noteworthy that McEwen and Freire were not picked while Steels, who's not been mentioned yet, was, although in Freire's case the fact there's no specific GT where he was dominant is the main reason, since the draft was based on Grand Tours. Freire's palmarès in one-day races smokes most of the others, mainly because his recovery within stages was incredible; in the hypothetical 150km pan flat stage he'd be nowhere, even at his best, but in a hypothetical 250km pan flat stage he'd be one of the favourites. I've also included the likes of Bettini and Sagan because they were/are capable of mixing it up in pan flat sprints when motivated and on form too.

20 Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta)
43 Mario Cipollini ('02 Giro)
48 Djamolidine Abdoujaparov ('93 Tour)
57 Paolo Bettini ('98 Giro)
67 Tom Steels ('98 Tour)
69 Mark Cavendish ('09 Tour)
75 Alessandro Petacchi ('04 Giro)
77 Peter Sagan ('12 Tour)
83 Thor Hushovd ('11 Tour)
86 Erik Zabel (no race specified)

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Zabel, no doubt. Surpasses Cipo's palmarès in quantity, quality and breadth.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Zabel and Freire are head and shoulders above the rest in terms of a 'palmares confrontation'.

Cipollini was the most entertaining and impressive - probably the best out and out sprinter - although I think Kittel is probably the fastest road sprinter of all time in terms of top end speed and power.

I have no proof but i think in the 90s, the sprinters were faster than nowadays. Cipo at his best would beat kittel. Just a guess.

Apparently Cipo was able to push around 2000 watts in a sprint, if that's true he had the power to beat Kittel. The fact that Cipo, the one guy who was always hated for being a one dimensional sprinter (my father despised him, he only likes sprinters who do well in the cobbled classics ), used to be more versatile than today's top sprinter Kittel is kinda sad, Kittel has become ultimate one trick pony.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Zabel and Freire are head and shoulders above the rest in terms of a 'palmares confrontation'.

Cipollini was the most entertaining and impressive - probably the best out and out sprinter - although I think Kittel is probably the fastest road sprinter of all time in terms of top end speed and power.

I have no proof but i think in the 90s, the sprinters were faster than nowadays. Cipo at his best would beat kittel. Just a guess.

Apparently Cipo was able to push around 2000 watts in a sprint, if that's true he had the power to beat Kittel. The fact that Cipo, the one guy who was always hated for being a one dimensional sprinter (my father despised him, he only likes sprinters who do well in the cobbled classics ), used to be more versatile than today's top sprinter Kittel is kinda sad, Kittel has become ultimate one trick pony.

I don't really get why it is sad. A sprinter that can put out close to 2000 watts is always going to struggle on climbs, because of all the extra muscle and bulk they must carry to hit that power. A sprinter that can put out 2000 watts, survive the Tour de France and win the stage in Paris with ease, is extremely rare, if not unique in cycling.

Kittel was a very good time triallist in his youth so is obviously very talented aerobically as well as anaerobically. But he chose to focus on sprinting as he saw that was where he could become the best in the world. Imo it would have been a lot sadder if he would have tried to maintain a bit of everything and just been another mid-pack rider that was decent, but not world class at anything. He's specialized effectively and has become the fastest road sprinter in the world. He's no more of a one trick pony than Contador or Quintana.

 

[May0maniac]

That's why I wrote that he has become a one trick pony, he used to be an ITT specialist before turning pro. It's just a bit frustrating when the best sprinter, who used to be a world class TT-prospect, gets dropped on almost every single minor climb.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

Just wanted to say how remarkabke it was that postwar Belgium not only produced the finest cobbles specialist of all time, which is fairly inevitable, as well as the greatest cyclist of all time, but (the general consensus seems to be) the greatest sprinter, and (at least for me, only challenged by Bahamontes, Herrera, and Pantani) the greatest climber of all time. A period of seven years, in a small country; what were the midwives doing?

(On the actual thread; I think a rider has a right to be as one-dimensional as they want to be. Blaming Kittel for his specialism is as silly as De Vlaeminck insisting Boonen should win the Giro di Lombardia. I wish every rider would aim for all five monuments, but the races have changed and the peloton has changed, in such a way that Kittel is not just incentivised into specialism but would be actively penalised if he hadn't become quite so specialised (probabky to the extent of someone like EBH.) Equally, Contador's hardly a fitting example, given he's a very good time triallist and excellent across most times. I'd agree Quintana, Rodriguez, Majka, and several others are equally non-versatile. To my mind, Cav's the best sprinter of this era, but Petacchi comes close for his sheer dominance of that Giro. Freire'd come close, but at the time of his biggest wins he was barely a 'sprinter' any more.)

 

[Echoes]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

I have never heard De Vlaeminck insisting that Boonen should win the Tour of Lombardy. Just noticing that he could not, like he could not win Liège-Bastogne. He has a point. The main thing is that neither he nor Cancellara even participated in those races, honour them with their presence.

Lucien Van Impe is far from being one of the greatest climber in history, hardly the greatest of his era (obviously he should never be challenged by a clinic era bald guy, though).

But Belgian cycling did not start post-war. It all started with Cyriel Van Houwaert, the first Belgian to gain international reputation, back in 1907 when he came second to Georges Passerieu in Paris-Roubaix, while all the leadershad pacemakers but him. The myth of the Flandrian coming from the agrarian milieu to raise himself socially, a tradition that stopped with World War II. Briek Schotte being the last one, symbolically at least. In the interval, Belgium already produced more cycling talentthan anywhere else, certainly in terms of density.

 

[Nirvana]

If we talk only on sprinting Cipollini all the way (probably one of the best in history) but riders like Zabel and Freire are more than sprinters and in a overall consideration are better than the lion king. For example Zabel won the Amstel Gold Race in a small group of puncheurs/climbers and Freire performed well also in harder races like Liege, in the early '00 i remember him also in the Lombardia near 10th place.

 

[DBotero]

Re: Palmares confrontation II :The greatest sprinters (1990-

Zabel for me.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

Zabel and Freire are head and shoulders above the rest in terms of a 'palmares confrontation'.

Cipollini was the most entertaining and impressive - probably the best out and out sprinter - although I think Kittel is probably the fastest road sprinter of all time in terms of top end speed and power.

I have no proof but i think in the 90s, the sprinters were faster than nowadays. Cipo at his best would beat kittel. Just a guess.

Apparently Cipo was able to push around 2000 watts in a sprint, if that's true he had the power to beat Kittel. The fact that Cipo, the one guy who was always hated for being a one dimensional sprinter (my father despised him, he only likes sprinters who do well in the cobbled classics ), used to be more versatile than today's top sprinter Kittel is kinda sad, Kittel has become ultimate one trick pony.

I can't believe how people think cipo was one dimensional. the guy won 2 gent wevelgems, rode top tens in tour of flanders and won (semi) mountainstages in the giro. if cipo had his mind set to it he could do almost anything. I remember well how he would always ride top 10 or top 5 in opening prologue's to get the leaders jersey the next day. and he had the engine to go the classical distance (similar to petacchi)

 

[Mozart92]

Re:

FWIW, given that it was a "doping no object" thread, the Fantasy Doping Draft is an interesting guide to what people thought of the relative levels of sprinters - since the objective was to pick the best team with no caring about ethics, with the timeframe being 1990 - 2014.

These were the sprinters picked and where they were picked. Although I personally picked Jalabert and it wasn't to sprint, cos I picked the 1995 Vuelta version of him. It's pretty noteworthy that McEwen and Freire were not picked while Steels, who's not been mentioned yet, was, although in Freire's case the fact there's no specific GT where he was dominant is the main reason, since the draft was based on Grand Tours. Freire's palmarès in one-day races smokes most of the others, mainly because his recovery within stages was incredible; in the hypothetical 150km pan flat stage he'd be nowhere, even at his best, but in a hypothetical 250km pan flat stage he'd be one of the favourites. I've also included the likes of Bettini and Sagan because they were/are capable of mixing it up in pan flat sprints when motivated and on form too.

20 Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta)
43 Mario Cipollini ('02 Giro)
48 Djamolidine Abdoujaparov ('93 Tour)
57 Paolo Bettini ('98 Giro)
67 Tom Steels ('98 Tour)
69 Mark Cavendish ('09 Tour)
75 Alessandro Petacchi ('04 Giro)
77 Peter Sagan ('12 Tour)
83 Thor Hushovd ('11 Tour)
86 Erik Zabel (no race specified)

Zabel's year could be 2001, specifically the Tour where he won 3 stages. That was an awesome year for him. The fourth Milan-Sanremo, the sixth green jersey, 22 victories. He was even first at the UCI world road ranking at the end of the season!

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Abdou takes the price. A fearless, all or nothing sprinter with a an appropriate face:

Solid bone structure.

 

[orangerider]

Cavendish for sure. I know, he's hated by many and perhaps rightly so. But can't dismiss his wins and still has years ahead. But now suffers stigma from "only winning" a few Tour stages here and there vs scooping them all up like before. Still impressive when you consider how many riders aspire to win just 1 Tour stage in their career.

 

[Mozart92]

Re:

Cavendish for sure. I know, he's hated by many and perhaps rightly so. But can't dismiss his wins and still has years ahead. But now suffers stigma from "only winning" a few Tour stages here and there vs scooping them all up like before. Still impressive when you consider how many riders aspire to win just 1 Tour stage in their career.

He won indeed a great number of stages but he had few rivals those years... between 2008 and 2011 his strongest rivals were Hushovd who was more suited to long difficult races and the old Petacchi (who still managed to defeat Cav a few times even if he was 36/37 years old and without a proper lead out)

Can you see Cavendish winning a sprint finish at that age?

Although we must give to Cavendish that in his early years he was very consistent and therefore he put in his palmares a big load of wins.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Cavendish for sure. I know, he's hated by many and perhaps rightly so. But can't dismiss his wins and still has years ahead. But now suffers stigma from "only winning" a few Tour stages here and there vs scooping them all up like before. Still impressive when you consider how many riders aspire to win just 1 Tour stage in their career.

He won indeed a great number of stages but he had few rivals those years... between 2008 and 2011 his strongest rivals were Hushovd who was more suited to long difficult races and the old Petacchi (who still managed to defeat Cav a few times even if he was 36/37 years old and without a proper lead out)

Can you see Cavendish winning a sprint finish at that age?

Although we must give to Cavendish that in his early years he was very consistent and therefore he put in his palmares a big load of wins.

Yes cav had few rivals, but you could argue that the presence of Cavendish forced riders to adapt and add something different. Let's face it, he effectively ended the careers of many pure sprinters, eg Goss, Farrar etc

If Cav wasn't so good, other pure sprinters would be able to challenge him.

Yes, Greipel has improved since he left HTC, but he was only so much worse, and Cav didn't let him get a look, he was that much superior. It's only been since Cav's declined a bit that the likes of Greipel and Kittel have flourished. A sprinter like Kittel would have been forced to improve his climbing back in 2007-2011 and become more well-rounded, or he would simply have been another Goss/Farrar

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Cavendish for sure. I know, he's hated by many and perhaps rightly so. But can't dismiss his wins and still has years ahead. But now suffers stigma from "only winning" a few Tour stages here and there vs scooping them all up like before. Still impressive when you consider how many riders aspire to win just 1 Tour stage in their career.

He won indeed a great number of stages but he had few rivals those years... between 2008 and 2011 his strongest rivals were Hushovd who was more suited to long difficult races and the old Petacchi (who still managed to defeat Cav a few times even if he was 36/37 years old and without a proper lead out)

Can you see Cavendish winning a sprint finish at that age?

Although we must give to Cavendish that in his early years he was very consistent and therefore he put in his palmares a big load of wins.

Yes cav had few rivals, but you could argue that the presence of Cavendish forced riders to adapt and add something different. Let's face it, he effectively ended the careers of many pure sprinters, eg Goss, Farrar etc

If Cav wasn't so good, other pure sprinters would be able to challenge him.

Yes, Greipel has improved since he left HTC, but he was only so much worse, and Cav didn't let him get a look, he was that much superior. It's only been since Cav's declined a bit that the likes of Greipel and Kittel have flourished. A sprinter like Kittel would have been forced to improve his climbing back in 2007-2011 and become more well-rounded, or he would simply have been another Goss/Farrar

Greipel was fast enough in 2009 to beat Cav, but Cav had his breakthrough earlier, and there was no way for Greipel to get around him. And Kittel is in a completely different league to Goss and Farrar in terms of sprinting. Those 2 were never close to that level.