Paris - Nice 10 March - 17 March 2019 77th edition

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

Good to see Ciccone riding so aggressively this season. He's quite punchy for a little fella. He must be Trek's top rider so far.

Isn't it usually the smaller guys that are most punchy?

"Punchy" is a very loaded word to use in cycling, as it usually refers to this rider type:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puncheur

It's generally used to describe riders who are slightly too heavy to be proper climbers, and will thus fail on the longer climbs..... so no, it is actually the reverse of what you describe.

That having been said, it's a sliding scale, and these days, many riders are hybrids, that cannot be pigeonholed as one thing or another.

IMO while a puncheur is always punchy, a punchy rider is not necessarily a puncheur. A climber can also be punchy.

How would you describe Purito, Yates, Valverde? They are punchy in the same way as Ciccone. And among climbers, it's usually the smaller guys that are more punchy (or at least that's my impression).

You can consult Wikipedia or some other source, but the point should be in the bursts, which are their dominant quality. Climbers can have a good punch, but they're primarily climbers, and so on.
Physiology stands behind everything, obviously.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Good to see Ciccone riding so aggressively this season. He's quite punchy for a little fella. He must be Trek's top rider so far.

Isn't it usually the smaller guys that are most punchy?

"Punchy" is a very loaded word to use in cycling, as it usually refers to this rider type:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puncheur

It's generally used to describe riders who are slightly too heavy to be proper climbers, and will thus fail on the longer climbs..... so no, it is actually the reverse of what you describe.

That having been said, it's a sliding scale, and these days, many riders are hybrids, that cannot be pigeonholed as one thing or another.

IMO while a puncheur is always punchy, a punchy rider is not necessarily a puncheur. A climber can also be punchy.

How would you describe Purito, Yates, Valverde? They are punchy in the same way as Ciccone. And among climbers, it's usually the smaller guys that are more punchy (or at least that's my impression).

I know, hence the whole "hybrid" bit

Very few riders today, are purely one thing or another..... I was just trying to avoid confusion, due to the use of the word "punchy".

Oh, in that case we agree.
Sirfly, obviously punchy doesn't imply it is their dominant quality. You could have a punchy climber or a punchy rouleur, and I like to use climby sprinter or sprinty climber as well (opening a whole new can of worms here...)

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Good to see Ciccone riding so aggressively this season. He's quite punchy for a little fella. He must be Trek's top rider so far.

Isn't it usually the smaller guys that are most punchy?

"Punchy" is a very loaded word to use in cycling, as it usually refers to this rider type:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puncheur

It's generally used to describe riders who are slightly too heavy to be proper climbers, and will thus fail on the longer climbs..... so no, it is actually the reverse of what you describe.

That having been said, it's a sliding scale, and these days, many riders are hybrids, that cannot be pigeonholed as one thing or another.

IMO while a puncheur is always punchy, a punchy rider is not necessarily a puncheur. A climber can also be punchy.

How would you describe Purito, Yates, Valverde? They are punchy in the same way as Ciccone. And among climbers, it's usually the smaller guys that are more punchy (or at least that's my impression).

I know, hence the whole "hybrid" bit

Very few riders today, are purely one thing or another..... I was just trying to avoid confusion, due to the use of the word "punchy".

Oh, in that case we agree.
Sirfly, obviously punchy doesn't imply it is their dominant quality. You could have a punchy climber or a punchy rouleur, and I like to use climby sprinter or sprinty climber as well (opening a whole new can of worms here...)[/quote]

As opposed to a sprinter who can climb? Funny enough (as he was already mentioned above) a sprinter who can climber (or I guess a climby sprinter) is what Valverde was referred to when he was a cadet and junior. I think Sagan is referred to that part of the time.

 

[sir fly]

I think "punch" refers to the ability of sudden acceleration, quick change of pace, while "sprint" somewhat differs... it doesn't have to be (and often isn't) sudden.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I think "punch" refers to the ability of sudden acceleration, quick change of pace, while "sprint" somewhat differs... it doesn't have to be (and often isn't) sudden.

Oh of course, I was just pointing out that a rider being punchy doesn't mean that's their best quality - like for my made-up words climby and sprinty as well. You could have a punchy climber (climber with a good punch) just like a climby sprinter (a sprinter who can climb quite well).

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

I think "punch" refers to the ability of sudden acceleration, quick change of pace, while "sprint" somewhat differs... it doesn't have to be (and often isn't) sudden.

Oh of course, I was just pointing out that a rider being punchy doesn't mean that's their best quality - like for my made-up words climby and sprinty as well. You could have a punchy climber (climber with a good punch) just like a climby sprinter (a sprinter who can climb quite well).

Yes, I understand what you're saying here.
I want to stress that if we call a rider puncheur, rouleur or grimpeur, it means it's their leading characteristic.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

I think "punch" refers to the ability of sudden acceleration, quick change of pace, while "sprint" somewhat differs... it doesn't have to be (and often isn't) sudden.

Oh of course, I was just pointing out that a rider being punchy doesn't mean that's their best quality - like for my made-up words climby and sprinty as well. You could have a punchy climber (climber with a good punch) just like a climby sprinter (a sprinter who can climb quite well).

- but not a punchy sprinter, because they are all "punchy" by nature

 

[Velolover2]

It's a scale, IMO.

Power sprinter: Colbrelli, Trentin, Matthews, Sagan, etc.
Pure puncheur: Alaphilippe, Ulissi, (early) Gilbert, etc.
Explosive climber: Martin, Valverde, Purito, Yates, etc.

 

[armchairclimber]

Haha ... I do love a heated debate. I'll tell you what I meant by "punchy" ... yes, having that bit of explosive power to go with the lightweight climbing ability that Ciccone has ... but, crucially, the mental outlook to go with it. The word punchy also implies an element of aggression ... a rider who will ride aggressively ... not afraid to go the the attack and ensure that they are out in key breakaways etc or even go solo. Simon Yates is a good example ... though much better than Ciccone. Valverde too ... but he's in a genre all of his own.
I'll also correct myself ... LRP is Trek's top rider so far this year of course.
Anyway, I shall choose my words carefully in future ... and I'll be sure to use contentious vocabulary ... I've quite enjoyed reading this. Although, apologies to everyone else, it is well off topic. So let's get back to the race.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

I think "punch" refers to the ability of sudden acceleration, quick change of pace, while "sprint" somewhat differs... it doesn't have to be (and often isn't) sudden.

Oh of course, I was just pointing out that a rider being punchy doesn't mean that's their best quality - like for my made-up words climby and sprinty as well. You could have a punchy climber (climber with a good punch) just like a climby sprinter (a sprinter who can climb quite well).

- but not a punchy sprinter, because they are all "punchy" by nature

What about a sprinty puncher, then?

But, anyway, I have it from the highest authority that Cort did not attack. He just started his sprint very early.

Cort Nielsen saw he had a small gap and he started to sprint already.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

It's a scale, IMO.

Power sprinter: Colbrelli, Trentin, Matthews, Sagan, etc.
Pure puncheur: Alaphilippe, Ulissi, (early) Gilbert, etc.
Explosive climber: Martin, Valverde, Purito, Yates, etc.

Those are sprinters who can climb well, aka climby sprinters. Power sprinters are something else, Kristoff and Degenkolb fits into that category.

 

[armchairclimber]

Aaaargh ... make it stop :lol: :lol:

 

[hammerthaim]

We should talk in Watts and mentality of wanting to put those Watts down at certain points of a race.

That should result in the production of a more conducive conversation.

 

[Singer01]

How much of an advantage would Kwiatko have to have after the TT for people to say 'fair enough, Bernal should work for him'?

 

[Flamin]

Re:

How much of an advantage would Kwiatko have to have after the TT for people to say 'fair enough, Bernal should work for him'?

The kind of advantage when Bernal gets like 5 flat tyres or something and is totally out of gc contention. It's all about the Turini.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Aaaargh ... make it stop :lol: :lol:

NEVERRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[TourOfSardinia]

That boxing match was already spoofed:
http://www.atwistedspoke.com/pro-cycling-boxing-event-bouhanni-vs-moscon/

 

[Red Rick]

Bernal and Kwiatkowski

One of them is a top climber.

One of them isn't.

Sky just have to hope Bernal is ahead of Quintana after today and then he can put himself on that wagon and maybe Kwiatkowski's presence can help Bernal a bit then.

 

[Dukerojo]

Re:

Bernal and Kwiatkowski

One of them is a top climber.

One of them isn't.

Sky just have to hope Bernal is ahead of Quintana after today and then he can put himself on that wagon and maybe Kwiatkowski's presence can help Bernal a bit then.

Bernal is a better TT than Quintana. Almost everyone is better at TT than Quintana

 

[Blanco]

Re:

How much of an advantage would Kwiatko have to have after the TT for people to say 'fair enough, Bernal should work for him'?

Bernal shouldn't work for him until Turini stage ends. Kwiatkowski is a big unknown on a climb like Turini. He can hold on till the very end, and he can also lose minutes on that climb.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

How much of an advantage would Kwiatko have to have after the TT for people to say 'fair enough, Bernal should work for him'?

Bernal shouldn't work for him until Turini stage ends. Kwiatkowski is a big unknown on a climb like Turini. He can hold on till the very end, and he can also lose minutes on that climb.

Literally nothing suggest Kwiatkowski can hang on to the very end. Kwiatkowski has not done sh*te leading a WT race in a high mountain stage.

 

[Alexandre B.]

March Kwiatkowski is usually among the best climbers.

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tirreno-adriatico/2013/stage-4
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tirreno-adriatico/2014/stage-4
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/paris-nice/2015/stage-4
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tirreno-adriatico/2018/stage-4

 

[Sestriere]

Scully leads from Bauer and Turgis so far.

Live timing available here:
https://racecenter.paris-nice.fr/#/stageprofile

 

[sir fly]

Re:

Haha ... I do love a heated debate. I'll tell you what I meant by "punchy" ... yes, having that bit of explosive power to go with the lightweight climbing ability that Ciccone has ... but, crucially, the mental outlook to go with it. The word punchy also implies an element of aggression ... a rider who will ride aggressively ... not afraid to go the the attack and ensure that they are out in key breakaways etc or even go solo. Simon Yates is a good example ... though much better than Ciccone. Valverde too ... but he's in a genre all of his own.
I'll also correct myself ... LRP is Trek's top rider so far this year of course.
Anyway, I shall choose my words carefully in future ... and I'll be sure to use contentious vocabulary ... I've quite enjoyed reading this. Although, apologies to everyone else, it is well off topic. So let's get back to the race.

That's baroudeur you're talking about.

 

[Red Rick]

All climbs far easier than this one, where he also lost time to lesser climbers than Bernal. He lost almost 2 minutes on Terminillo in 2017.