Paris-Nice 2012 - Stage 5; Onet-le-Chateau - Mende (178.5 km)

[Froome19]

He's podiumed Dauphiné and was in or near the top 10 at the Vuelta for almost 2 weeks before he gave in to fatigue. He's shown some pretty decent climbing pedigree.

On the main climbing stage of the dauphine -alpe de huez he came 11th 1:26 behind contador , not what I would call spectacular and keep in mind that in the dauphine many of the people were peaking for the tour while he wasnt and was in their better shape than them.
In the vuelta I cant find any distincitve climbing perfomance from him at all, so that point is pretty void.
His climbing is pretty good but is disproportionate to his TT which suggests he is never going to be a top GT climber, and someone I would rank more in the category of Martin.
Remember as Westra showed today and martin showed last year, 7 day stage races are subjective entirely to form so until he shows some good climbng in GT's then nothing is proven (and his perfomance in super besse isnt counted)

 

[ferryman]

Wiggins was focused mostly on the track in his early days, the road was just something for the future.

Erm yes, no argument. But you have missed my point when he did turn his eye to the Road after Athens. That would be 2007 and 2008 and then...bang, TT'r morphs into a climber deluxe. So it could easily have been posted about him in those 2 'post track road' years.

 

[Richeypen]

There is no bang until he wins GT. Sry, IF he wins. Which propably ever will NOT happen. I hope. It's a shame if Wiggos kind of clown wins GT.

Yawwwwwwwwn

Yeah u cant be classed a successful rider unless youve won a GT


Think you meant to post rubbish like that in here:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15240&page=20

 

[Libertine Seguros]

On the main climbing stage of the dauphine -alpe de huez he came 11th 1:26 behind contador , not what I would call spectacular and keep in mind that in the dauphine many of the people were peaking for the tour while he wasnt and was in their better shape than them.
In the vuelta I cant find any distincitve climbing perfomance from him at all, so that point is pretty void.
His climbing is pretty good but is disproportionate to his TT which suggests he is never going to be a top GT climber, and someone I would rank more in the category of Martin.
Remember as Westra showed today and martin showed last year, 7 day stage races are subjective entirely to form so until he shows some good climbng in GT's then nothing is proven (and his perfomance in super besse isnt counted)

Tejay was a neo-pro when he managed to come 1'26" behind Contador on Alpe d'Huez (with Horner pacing him for the last bit for patriotic reasons).

His climbing is disproportionate to his TT, but if people like Bradley Wiggins can turn themselves into GT climbers I fail to see why Tejay van Garderen, who is far, far more of a climber than Wiggins was at his age (at that point Wiggins was being dropped by the autobus), can't. Even notwithstanding that the guy whose name you take in your username - a few months before he podiumed the Vuelta, he lost 40 seconds on Filippo Savini on the climb to Laguna de los Peces, which is little more than false flat. And that wasn't considered a bad day - that was par for the course.

 

[Richeypen]

He could be but imo I highly doubt it, dont kid me he will become a top class rider who I'm sure will have races like Paris-nice on his palmares but his climbing just doesnt correlate with his time trialling so unless he totally discards it and focuses on his climbing i dont see how he will improve enough as a rider to be able to be competitive on the climbing front. This is also as his TT is disproportionate to where you are suggesting he should be at so unless he is the next Martin just better at climbing, he is evidently to close to his peak to improve enough as a climber.

Intrigued to know how you know his peak....

 

[ferryman]

There is no bang until he wins GT. Sry, IF he wins. Which propably ever will NOT happen. I hope. It's a shame if Wiggos kind of clown wins GT.

The bang is the BIG BANG from pure TT'r to elite climber/TT'r in the space of 2 years

 

[Swede1]

Just watched the stage. A bit of a stinker really. I expected a lot more aggressive riding. I guess valverde isnt as strong as we thought. Sky was ridiculously strong though. TJVG was kind of disappointing. He seems to always crack near the end of climbs. I feel like he is on the verge of a breakout though.

 

[hrotha]

On the main climbing stage of the dauphine -alpe de huez he came 11th 1:26 behind contador , not what I would call spectacular and keep in mind that in the dauphine many of the people were peaking for the tour while he wasnt and was in their better shape than them.
In the vuelta I cant find any distincitve climbing perfomance from him at all, so that point is pretty void.
His climbing is pretty good but is disproportionate to his TT which suggests he is never going to be a top GT climber, and someone I would rank more in the category of Martin.
Remember as Westra showed today and martin showed last year, 7 day stage races are subjective entirely to form so until he shows some good climbng in GT's then nothing is proven (and his perfomance in super besse isnt counted)

I'm not arguing he'll be a GT contender (the way he faded towards the end of the Vuelta suggests he may never be; but he was a neo-pro, so who knows). I'm saying he's shown a decent climbing pedigree, more so than Bouet or any other guy you're comparing him to.

Also, you can't find any climbing performance at the Vuelta, so it didn't happen? Huh?
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=19356
Take the breakaway out of the equation.

 

[pmcg76]

Yes but Froome had a reason for it his parasite infection etc (balau...) Van Garderen is showing his best capabilities at the moment something froome never had the opportunity to do.
Of course Van Garderen could suddenly develop and do a froome and become an amazing climber over night but do we really have to take such an occurence account.
I'm saying Froome never showed anything in the TT or climbing of sufficient substance so he evidently made a leap (probably due to his illness) Van Garderen has shown what he is capable of with his TT so he evidently is at a good point and riding towards his potential and yet has not shown anything that matches that with his climbing.

Froome has been pro for how long now, 6 years, that parastie didnt have an effect on him all that time. Didnt he only pick it up in late 2010 . What are the excuses before that because TJVG has still shown more climbing prowess than Froome ever did before his parasite. Time to take of the blinkers. To write of a 23yo third year pro who has already podiumed in the Dauphine at 21 is just silly. Froome had no comparable results to TJVG at the same age.

As others have pointed out, the sport is littered with guys who never showed much climbing ability early career and then just morphed. Think the biggest of them all, Lance!!! Doesnt mean TJVG is gonna develop into a major climber but if the likes of Sergei Gontchar and Abraham Olano were capable of winning/making the podium in GTs, then why not TJVG in the future.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Froome has been pro for how long now, 6 years, that parastie didnt have an effect on him all that time. Didnt he only pick it up in late 2010 . What are the excuses before that because TJVG has still shown more climbing prowess than Froome ever did before his parasite. Time to take of the blinkers. To write of a 23yo third year pro who has already podiumed in the Dauphine at 21 is just silly. Froome had no comparable results to TJVG at the same age.

As others have pointed out, the sport is littered with guys who never showed much climbing ability early career and then just morphed. Think the biggest of them all, Lance!!! Doesnt mean TJVG is gonna develop into a major climber but if the likes of Sergei Gontchar and Abraham Olano were capable of winning/making the podium in GTs, then why not TJVG in the future.

Very well put.

 

[Carols]

Just finished watching the stage. Wiggo attacked; I almost fell out of my chair He looks strong if a bit gutted after the line...don't know that anyone can take him now. Maybe Levi in the ITT if Wiggo has an off day.

Isn't it Early to have this kind of form? He'll have to repeak for le Tour. Sky looks pretty formidable. With Porte and Froome in his service le Tour could become even more interesting!

Disappointed a bit with Valverde, oh well. TJVG getting dropped was also disappointing, but he is only 23 he still has plenty of time to mature.

 

[Angliru]

He could be but imo I highly doubt it, dont kid me he will become a top class rider who I'm sure will have races like Paris-nice on his palmares but his climbing just doesnt correlate with his time trialling so unless he totally discards it and focuses on his climbing i dont see how he will improve enough as a rider to be able to be competitive on the climbing front. This is also as his TT is disproportionate to where you are suggesting he should be at so unless he is the next Martin just better at climbing, he is evidently to close to his peak to improve enough as a climber.

Isn't it a little early in his career to be writing him off in a particular discipline that he isn't exactly excelling at (but isn't exactly failing completely at either)?

 

[woodburn]

Did they ride up the climb on the same road as in the 2010 Tour? Looked quite different but could have been the camera shots. Also interesting they did not finish on the flat section.

 

[greenedge]

Just watched the stage. Congrats to Westra- who has pulled something astonishing out of the bag and who could ITT well enough to challenge Wiggins ( usually a good ITTer anyways and he can use any steep parts to gain time ). Wiggins owes a lot of thanks to Porte though- though he rode well himself. Levi did well.

Whoever said Westra is a beast ( maybe not on this thread was absolutely correct ). Found who it was @theyoungest
"Westra third in a sprint. The Beast of Frisia is coming into form" Pg 15 stage 4 P-N thread.

 

[Swede1]

Yes but Froome had a reason for it his parasite infection etc (balau...) Van Garderen is showing his best capabilities at the moment something froome never had the opportunity to do.
Of course Van Garderen could suddenly develop and do a froome and become an amazing climber over night but do we really have to take such an occurence account.
I'm saying Froome never showed anything in the TT or climbing of sufficient substance so he evidently made a leap (probably due to his illness) Van Garderen has shown what he is capable of with his TT so he evidently is at a good point and riding towards his potential and yet has not shown anything that matches that with his climbing.

Oh ok. So TVJG would be showing much more GT future armstrong potential if he was riding in the autobus with the sprinters! Now I understand the logic

He can of course still improve. It just depends on his will to work hard and train hard. (and maybe some other things...)

 

[jens_attacks]

Did they ride up the climb on the same road as in the 2010 Tour? Looked quite different but could have been the camera shots. Also interesting they did not finish on the flat section.

yep same road but in all tour de france editions,the finish was on the aerodrome.

In the end they were 20 seconds slower than Contador's 3 times up here (9:30 on all attempts).

Gives you an idea what a race with Contador means.

hmmm not exactly 9:30 but yes it was a pretty boring ascent.god damn richie porte was drilling it at the front for 6 and a half minutes,one of the strongest performances i ever saw on mende.

to compare the time ascents from paris-nice with those from le tour is kind of silly.in le tour they always go faster.

the top ascents from paris-nice editions:

2007 9:39 Alberto Contador 19.27 km/h
2007 9:41 Davide Rebellin 19.21 km/h
2010 9:43 Alberto Contador 19.14 km/h
2007 9:51 David López García 18.88 km/h
2007 9:52 Cadel Evans 18.85 km/h
2012 9:52 Lieuwe Westra 18.85 km/h
2010 9:53 Alejandro Valverde 18.82 km/h
2010 9:53 Samuel Sanchez 18.82 km/h
2007 9:56 Tadej Valjavec 18.72 km/h
2012 9:58 Alejandro Valverde 18.66 km/h

for lieuwe westra let's just say

overall of course marco untouchable.

Côte de la Croix Neuve-Mende
2012:3,1 km@10,1%---9:52---average speed 18.85 km/h(Lieuwe Westra)
2010:3,1 km@10,1%---9:33---average speed 19.48 km/h(Contador-Rodriguez)
2010:3,1 km@10,1%---9:43---average speed 19.14 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2007:3,1 km@10,1%---9:39---average speed 19.27 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2005:3,1 km@10,1%---10:35---average speed 17.57 km/h(Marcos Serrano)
1995:3,1 km@10,1%---9:48---average speed 18.98 km/h(Laurent Jalabert)
---9:03---average speed 20.55 km/h(Marco Pantani)

2005 9'33 armstrong basso evans ullrich

 

[boomcie]

Whoever said Westra is a beast ( maybe not on this thread was absolutely correct ).

That's actually his 'official' nickname. It's been around for quite some time now and it has not been invented by anyone on these boards.

 

[Froome19]

Oh ok. So TVJG would be showing much more GT future armstrong potential if he was riding in the autobus with the sprinters! Now I understand the logic

He can of course still improve. It just depends on his will to work hard and train hard. (and maybe some other things...)

Ummm... no you dont because he would still be riding strong TT, so no he wouldnt be showing as much as armstrong.

My point about Froome was that there was evidently some reason as to why he made his leap, its not up to me to explain it but its obvious that there is, yet thats not possible with TJVG as he is already a top rider (in TT) so a leap of that magnitude is highly unlikely, of course he could do a westra but seeing from how he ,unlike westra, has been slightly competitive in climbs it seems like his limitations are visible, I'm not discounting the possibility of him improving but his previous perfomnaces suggests he will be a slightly better version of Tony Martin.

 

[El Pistolero]

That's actually his 'official' nickname. It's been around for quite some time now and it has not been invented by anyone on these boards.

It's been invented by a fairy kingdom somewhere in the very north of a ghastly place called the Neverlands.

 

[Kwibus]

It's been invented by a fairy kingdom somewhere in the very north of a ghastly place called the Neverlands.

 

[theyoungest]

Meanwhile, back in El Pistiland, King Gilbert has been all but decapitated.

 

[boomcie]

Meanwhile, back in El Pistiland, King Gilbert has been all but decapitated.

Meanwhile regent Boonen isn't doing all that bad.

 

[El Pistolero]

Meanwhile regent Boonen isn't doing all that bad.

And the princes GVA, Meersman and Sep Vanmarcke aren't doing too bad either. King Phil, kind as he is, has decided to give the less talented foot-soldiers a month to show their strength.

Meanwhile, the hostilities continue. King Phil is planning a take-over which shouldn't be hard considering the inferiority of the enemy. King Westra the first went into hiding the moment he heard the news. Our spies have tracked down his location all the way to Mende, a little town.

 

[theyoungest]

I'm not talking about Belgium, I'm talking about El Pistiland, where Gilbert is king.

 

[boomcie]

I'm not talking about Belgium, I'm talking about El Pistiland, where Gilbert is king.

And Boonen is regent? Or has something changed during my time of relative inactivity?