Paris-Nice 2012 - Stage 5; Onet-le-Chateau - Mende (178.5 km)

[hrotha]

:facepalm: for believing all those bs excuses. you also believe andy schleck lost the tour 2010 because he had a mechanical?

You bought that excuse when it was the Colombians using it.

 

[ferryman]

Yeah, being overgeared on a terribly steep climb, what a stupid excuse

Cobo was the only one of the heads of state with 34x32. It made a difference, you could see that clear as day.

On the contrary, there is no excuse for being overgeared on the Angliru

 

[joe_papp]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/paris-nice-2012/stage-5/results

Em .... Westra would not have taken Yellow if he had powered to the line instead of sitting up. He only lost a couple of seconds by sitting up. If he powered to the line he still would have been 3 - 4 seconds down on GC. Wiggo would still have been in yellow tonight anyway.

Thank you for noting this. I was getting sick of hearing people castigate the guy for easing up in the last 15m to give a victory salute, which didn't lose him 7sec and the jersey, which is what Daniel Benson would have you believe. Sure, maybe it comes back to haunt him later if he loses p-n GC by 1sec or something, but for now - no big deal.

Would be interesting to know what - if anything - his DS was shouting in his ear via radio during the final couple-hundred meters?

 

[DominicDecoco]

On the contrary, there is no excuse for being overgeared on the Angliru

Definitely not. They were either not good enough uphill or they had made no preparation what so ever which would be the most embarrising thing in years.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Thank you for noting this. I was getting sick of hearing people castigate the guy for easing up in the last 15m to give a victory salute, which didn't lose him 7sec and the jersey, which is what Daniel Benson would have you believe. Sure, maybe it comes back to haunt him later if he loses p-n GC by 1sec or something, but for now - no big deal.

Would be interesting to know what - if anything - his DS was shouting in his ear via radio during the final couple-hundred meters?

Of course it is. If he was a minute after Wiggins before today it would have been no big deal. But he knew he was strong, he knew he was/is an outsider for overall with that form of his and P-N is never won with many seconds. They got at least 4 seconds on him beacuse of that which was totally unnecessary.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

You bought that excuse when it was the Colombians using it.

yes. apples and oranges again. you are an idiot if you overgear on angliru and I don't believe a single word of it. sky are so professional. yes wiggins rode a big gear simply because he was totally in the red-zone with his efforts so it looked and he rode slow than cobo which is not surprising considering cobo rone one of the fatest acents of angliru. especially from the moment he attacked

 

[Kwibus]

Yeah, but this wouldn't have normally been the stage to see him attack in the last km when there were probably less than 10 people in the group.

So in a way it's understandable that Harmon decided to pretend that what he is seeing isn't actually happening.

It would be understandable, but 1-2 minutes before Westra attacked Harmon had allraedy spotted Westra. Kelly and Harmon both were surprised to see him .. so was I

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

So, did anyone time the climb? Looked pretty slow to me.

In the end they were 20 seconds slower than Contador's 3 times up here (9:30 on all attempts).

Gives you an idea what a race with Contador means.

 

[Kwibus]

In the end they were 20 seconds slower than Contador's 3 times up here (9:30 on all attempts).

Gives you an idea what a race with Contador means.

You should post the time of the Indurain days. What was it? 08:50? lol!
The used some great stuff back in the days

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Pantani 8:40

But back in those days the leaders would also go full out from the bottom. Now htye first use their helpers. A lot has changed...
Also look at the top 10 of little tours like Paris Nice and Pais Vasco. The difference between nr 1 and 2 would be 1 minute, and nr 2 and 3 again a minute.

Nowadays it's all in seconds!

 

[Kwibus]

I almost forgot:

Wooooooooooooo! Weeeesssstraaaa wins!

Bloody hell... recorded the race. Didn't have time to watch it until late this evening so I avoided cyclingnews and newssites.
I'm in my car on my way to an appointment. News starts, since I didn't expected any news about cycling since it isn't July I didn't bother turning it off...... *Dutch success in Paris - Nice today!*

This morning at work when I was reading the newspaper there was an article about Westra since he was doing quite well in Paris - Nice. At the end of the article Van der Scheuren said that he expected Westra to stay with the favourites today. So I mumbled "yeh right" My collegue asked what was up so I said what they wrote and told him there was no way in hell that Westra all of a sudden was able to stay with the best on a 3km climb at 10.1%.

I got something to explain tomorrow.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

yup, i laughed hard at hilaire's comment yesterday. Didn't even think Westra would top 10 on the stage. Probably finish 11-15th thereabouts. As good as Van Garderen or Monfort was today.

And then this happens.. lol

 

[Froome19]

I was hoping Van Garderen would finish a bit better, but he still had a decent day. I still think the future is very bright for him.

Bright as a Time trialist but he cant climb with the best and thats a fact.

True. I have more faith in Talansky for the real climbs, although Talansky is still very inconsistent at this point.

However, van Garderen could win a soft vuelta or do suprisingly well in soft Tour with lots of ITT kilometers.

I believe its the same as stating that Martin could win a GT.. You have to be able to climb well to win a GT even a soft vuelta (of which there doesnt look like being many anytime soon) and the fact is that TJVG is evidently on top form here from his TT perfomance and yet his climbing was nowhere good enough, even to get on to martins level seems like it will take some time going on todays perfomance.

:facepalm: for believing all those bs excuses. you also believe andy schleck lost the tour 2010 because he had a mechanical?

a) he technically didnt lose the tour
b) Yes, you can work out the maths yourself (ok so they were drawn in time but with yellow on he would have had the inspiration to gain at least one more second) if he hadnt lost the time then how would he have lost the tour?

I thought Wiggins' and Froome's suffering and time loss to Cobo on the Angliru was due largely to their less than wise choice in gearing (compared to Cobo's)?

And the fact that Froome was required to do a lot more work than necessary for Wiggins whilst Cobo though alone had help from Menchov and Del fuente

Of course it is. If he was a minute after Wiggins before today it would have been no big deal. But he knew he was strong, he knew he was/is an outsider for overall with that form of his and P-N is never won with many seconds. They got at least 4 seconds on him beacuse of that which was totally unnecessary.

And he didnt really care.... and will not regret it
you may have never experienced it but when the sheer exhiliration you get from winning a sporting event you put so much effort into is totally overwhelming, Westra has just achieved the pinnacle of his career so far let him enjoy it.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

yup, i laughed hard at hilaire's comment yesterday. Didn't even think Westra would top 10 on the stage. Probably finish 11-15th thereabouts. As good as Van Garderen or Monfort was today.

And then this happens.. lol

aftwr reading comments of vanderscheurne I wanted to bet on him for stage win today but his name wasn't on betfair list. imagine the money I would've made

 

[will10]

Bright as a Time trialist but he cant climb with the best and thats a fact.

See that white jersey he had on today? He could be years away from his peak

I believe its the same as stating that Martin could win a GT.. You have to be able to climb well to win a GT even a soft vuelta (of which there doesnt look like being many anytime soon) and the fact is that TJVG is evidently on top form here from his TT perfomance and yet his climbing was nowhere good enough, even to get on to martins level seems like it will take some time going on todays perfomance.

Considering your username and the field Froome finished 2nd in Vuelta '11, I'm loving the irony.

 

[Froome19]

See that white jersey he had on today? He could be years away from his peak



Considering your username and the field Froome finished 2nd in Vuelta '11, I'm loving the irony.

He could be but imo I highly doubt it, dont kid me he will become a top class rider who I'm sure will have races like Paris-nice on his palmares but his climbing just doesnt correlate with his time trialling so unless he totally discards it and focuses on his climbing i dont see how he will improve enough as a rider to be able to be competitive on the climbing front. This is also as his TT is disproportionate to where you are suggesting he should be at so unless he is the next Martin just better at climbing, he is evidently to close to his peak to improve enough as a climber.

 

[Froome19]

Considering your username and the field Froome finished 2nd in Vuelta '11, I'm loving the irony.

What are you saying.... that TJVG will be a better climber than froome?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Froome showed no results near that of Van Garderen uphill prior to the Vuelta '11. I think some people came up with results that Froome finished 25th in some mountain stage to prove he could climb and the Vuelta result didn't come out of nowhere lol

So in that aspect, you are a bit quick in writing Van Garderen off completely.

 

[Froome19]

Froome showed no results near that of Van Garderen uphill prior to the Vuelta '11. I think some people came up with results that Froome finished 25th in some mountain stage to prove he could climb and the Vuelta result didn't come out of nowhere lol

So in that aspect, you are a bit quick in writing Van Garderen off completely.

Yes but Froome had a reason for it his parasite infection etc (balau...) Van Garderen is showing his best capabilities at the moment something froome never had the opportunity to do.
Of course Van Garderen could suddenly develop and do a froome and become an amazing climber over night but do we really have to take such an occurence account.
I'm saying Froome never showed anything in the TT or climbing of sufficient substance so he evidently made a leap (probably due to his illness) Van Garderen has shown what he is capable of with his TT so he evidently is at a good point and riding towards his potential and yet has not shown anything that matches that with his climbing.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Showing potential at such early age doesn't mean they can't still make a leap. And it's not an unlikely occurrence either.

Especially the last 2/3 years, since cycling became a bit cleaner (for my feeling), we see much more suprises. And people making leaps out of nowhere. This is because the top riders aren't going up climbs like a Ferrari with extra jet fuel in them anymore. It's easier to bridge up the gap if a rider suddenly finds the form of his life, even if it's only for a few weeks (hello mr. Kern).
Neither is it impossible for riders who always shown a bit of promise, but never delivered, to suddenly make the jump up to the top level. Hell we got evidence enough even in the last 5 years. Sastre was there from young age, but never looked like a GT winner, and then he suddenly won the 2008 Tour de France.

Cadel Evans, now what a story that was. A lot of people including me said after 2008 that Evans would never get a chance to win the Tour again. And then he DID in 2012. Just when you think he'll never win a GT, he wins the Tour... he made that final leap.
You simply cannot give up on riders that shown potential. That's one thing I've learned from all my mishaps from the previous years. You never know when they are going to do it... sometimes it might never come, but sometimes...they do

 

[ferryman]

He could be but imo I highly doubt it, dont kid me he will become a top class rider who I'm sure will have races like Paris-nice on his palmares but his climbing just doesnt correlate with his time trialling so unless he totally discards it and focuses on his climbing i dont see how he will improve enough as a rider to be able to be competitive on the climbing front. This is also as his TT is disproportionate to where you are suggesting he should be at so unless he is the next Martin just better at climbing, he is evidently to close to his peak to improve enough as a climber.

This post could have been about Wigggins any time before 2009... and then bang

 

[Froome19]

Showing potential at such early age doesn't mean they can't still make a leap. And it's not an unlikely occurrence either.

Especially the last 2/3 years, since cycling became a bit cleaner (for my feeling), we see much more suprises. And people making leaps out of nowhere. This is because the top riders aren't going up climbs like a Ferrari with extra jet fuel in them anymore. It's easier to bridge up the gap if a rider suddenly finds the form of his life, even if it's only for a few weeks (hello mr. Kern).
Neither is it impossible for riders who always shown a bit of promise, but never delivered, to suddenly make the jump up to the top level. Hell we got evidence enough even in the last 5 years. Sastre was there from young age, but never looked like a GT winner, and then he suddenly won the 2008 Tour de France.

Cadel Evans, now what a story that was. A lot of people including me said after 2008 that Evans would never get a chance to win the Tour again. And then he DID in 2012. Just when you think he'll never win a GT, he wins the Tour... he made that final leap.
You simply cannot give up on riders that shown potential. That's one thing I've learned from all my mishaps from the previous years. You never know when they are going to do it... sometimes it might never come, but sometimes...they do

Yeh but the potential TJVG has shown is in the TT not really in climbing, in climbing why is he any different to any of the guys he finished near today like maxime Bouet, i'm not discounting the fact he will become a very good "able to climb TT", but that has no relationship to his climbing potential

 

[Froome19]

This post could have been about Wigggins any time before 2009... and then bang

Wiggins was focused mostly on the track in his early days, the road was just something for the future.

 

[hrotha]

Yeh but the potential TJVG has shown is in the TT not really in climbing, in climbing why is he any different to any of the guys he finished near today like maxime Bouet, i'm not discounting the fact he will become a very good "able to climb TT", but that has no relationship to his climbing potential

He's podiumed Dauphiné and was in or near the top 10 at the Vuelta for almost 2 weeks before he gave in to fatigue. He's shown some pretty decent climbing pedigree.

 

[Museeuw]

This post could have been about Wigggins any time before 2009... and then bang

There is no bang until he wins GT. Sry, IF he wins. Which propably ever will NOT happen. I hope. It's a shame if Wiggos kind of clown wins GT.