Paris-Roubaix 2012 - The Queen of the Classics (257.5km)

[El Pistolero]

I'm just using occams razor. The observable facts are that he struggles in harder longer races, and that he can't consume the energy gels and drinks that everyone else does. These two facts seem to fit rather well together and not require recourse to anything else for explanation.

Sounds like a lame excuse to me. If that is the case then he'll never win a Monument, so why would Sky even make him leader then?

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I don't see the problem. If someone's engine isn't big enough, he can't make it to the final of a real classic, someone like that get's progressively worse after 200km. I've been watching cycling for 15 years, and that has always been what that expression meant, and every cycling fan I know knows what that expression means. I don't get why you get so upset about the phrasing of the expression. Hagen's engine just isn't big enough.

You're not addressing what I'm saying at all, because you keep talking gibberish about engines.

It is lucky the metaphor is totally dead, because if it were not people would still be thinking about what it meant, and would realise it doesn't make any sense.

I suspect we agree on the underlying reality - that EBH does not store and replenish enough energy during a race to race hard after 6 hours. But until you use words which explain what you mean, I'm not certain.

The only alternative is that you think 450W at the start of a race are different to 450W at the end of the race. Or that there is some unspecified reason that EBH's wattage drops off, other than a drop off in energy and hormones.

I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is you're actually trying to say.

 

[Wallace]

Boonen: 7 monuments, tied for the record in both Flanders and P-R, and with the way he's riding now, the odds are pretty good (putting it mildly), that before he retires he'll win at least one more of one them, making him the greatest rider of the cobbled classics of all time. But then, you kind of knew that watching the last 20 km of this race.

 

[Trofinios]

I'm just using occams razor. The observable facts are that he struggles in harder longer races, and that he can't consume the energy gels and drinks that everyone else does. These two facts seem to fit rather well together and not require recourse to anything else for explanation.

That's funny because in Verdens gang yesterday, a norwegian newspaper, it was an article about EBH stomach problems. EBH and the folks around him claimed that his problems is solved, proof herefore was that he in both MSR and RVV managed to be there in end.

Btw, EBH struggled already after 220-225k today.

 

[hrotha]

It's not a fail, because he never had a chance to podium this race.

Now Sky, Rabo and BMC are a fail.

That's stupid. Pozzato had a better chance than Boom, Ballan and Flecha, because he can go on the cobbles just as fast or faster than them, and he actually can sprint.

 

[Peccio89]

It's not a fail, because he never had a chance to podium this race.

Now Sky, Rabo and BMC are a fail.

It seems to me he could have been second pretty easily, if he hadn't start yelling at Ballan, instead of stayng at Boonen wheels.

And Bmc a fail? they got a podium in a race in which they had no chance of winning anyway, so they got a good result In my opinion

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

That's funny because in Verdens gang yesterday, a norwegian newspaper, it was an article about EBH stomach problems. EBH and the folks around him claimed that his problems is solved, proof herefore was that he in both MSR and RVV managed to be there in end.

He's been a little better this year, but still not had it right when it counted.

I'm just seeking to actually discuss why, because 'he doesn't have a big enough engine' is either gibberish or tautological nonsense.

If i'm being charitable and go for the 2nd option, then it simple means that a rider can't cope in long hard races. In EBH case, we can all see that, so it's like trying to explain why EBH can't cope by saying that EBH can't cope - utterly pointless.

Sadly because people are using a dead metaphor it blinds them to the banality of the statements they're making.

 

[El Pistolero]

Who's afraid of who Hushovd? Who's afraid of who?

 

[maltiv]

That's funny because in Verdens gang yesterday, a norwegian newspaper, it was an article about EBH stomach problems. EBH and the folks around him claimed that his problems is solved, proof herefore was that he in both MSR and RVV managed to be there in end.

The problem that was solved was his stomach pain, not his energy. The solution to stop his cramps was to stop eating pasta, gels, energy drinks and so on.

It stopped the stomach cramps but now he has no energy instead.

 

[Gloin22]

Why is everybody poitning to Sky/BMC/Rabo fail, while Garmin made a bigger fail with the team they had

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Why is everybody poitning to Sky/BMC/Rabo fail, while Garmin made a bigger fail with the team they had

Sky made the classic mistake of trying.

Never try and fail.

 

[hrotha]

Why is everybody poitning to Sky/BMC/Rabo fail, while Garmin made a bigger fail with the team they had

What team did Garmin have? Vansummeren is currently their best cobbled rider, and he performed at his level: very good, but not great. Vanmarcke might be a contender in the future, but he's apparently past his own shape and probably not ready yet anyway. Who else did they have? Haussler? Come on now.

Last year they had one of the best teams because they had Hushovd, who was actually a top contender. This year was different.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sky made the classic mistake of trying.

Never try and fail.

Nah, Garmin tried and failed so hard that they were already irrelevant by the time we got to the point where things were happening. By the time we got to the end all the fails that led to teams only having one representative in the group of 14 were forgotten, but the team that had 5 men in the 14 and still got nowhere, their fail came at a more memorable time.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

My god, what a ride by Boonen today, unbelievable tactics by Pozzato/Ballan, Sky, and Rabobank...

Great work by Terpstra...

But Boonen man man man Tommeke wat doe je nu??

What he's doing is moving up the ladder.

Below are his career Monument Wins (was 5 before this season) compared to others:
Monument Wins
Name (Total)
Merckx (19)
De Vlaeminck (11)
Coppi (9)
Girardengo (9)
Kelly (9)
Van Looy (8)
Bartali (7)
Boonen (7)
Argentin (6)
Binda (6)
De Bruyne (6)
Moser (6)
Museeuw (6)
Pelissier, H (6)
Bartoli (5)
Belloni (5)
Bettini (5)

Then here are his career Monument podiums (was 10 before this season):
Monument Podiums
Name (Total)
Merckx (30)
De Vlaeminck (21)
Coppi (15)
Girardengo (15)
Kelly (15)
Moser (15)
Museeuw (15)
Bartali (13)
Van Looy (13)
Boonen (12)
Belloni (11)
Godefroot (11)
Binda (10)
Gimondi (10)
Argentin (9)
De Bruyne (9)
Raas (9)

Boonen Career Summary:
1st PR 2005, 1st PR 2008, 1st PR 2009, 1st PR 2012,
1st RVV 2005, 1st RVV 2006, 1st RVV 2012

2nd MSR 2010, 2nd PR 2006, 2nd RVV 2010

3rd MSR 2007, 3rd PR 2002


I guess you could say I'm a Tomeke fan and have been waiting for him to break out again for a few years. Good job Tom and OPQS.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

In retrospect I don't think Pozzato had it today. Certainly not enough to live with Boonen from 55km out. He was behind in the split after the crash, not well placed in Arenberg and behind again when OPQS split it up in the wind so the writing was on the wall. The effort to go with Boonen a first time probably had him on his limit. Boonen would have used him and then dropped him and he'd have been mopped up.

His fail was to fall off

 

[Trofinios]

He's been a little better this year, but still not had it right when it counted.

I'm just seeking to actually discuss why, because 'he doesn't have a big enough engine' is either gibberish or tautological nonsense.

If i'm being charitable and go for the 2nd option, then it simple means that a rider can't cope in long hard races. In EBH case, we can all see that, so it's like trying to explain why EBH can't cope by saying that EBH can't cope - utterly pointless.

Sadly because people are using a dead metaphor it blinds them to the banality of the statements they're making.

The 3rd option is that he just needs more experience and build more strenght and endurence for long and hard races. Maybe PR is just a little bit too tough for him right now. It's not an unreasonable view.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

The 3rd option is that he just needs more experience and build more strenght and endurence for long and hard races. Maybe PR is just a little bit too tough for him right now. It's not an unreasonable view.

Ok, but what does strength and endurance consist of - that's the question.

Watts are just Watts - why can he not produce them later in long hard races. Is it lack of energy, or what?

My point is that this 'engine' thing is a description (and a bad one) not an explanation.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Euskaltel's favourite day out of the year ends with the reward of 79th place, IZAGIRRE INSAUSTI Ion + 13' 05"

 

[Trofinios]

The problem that was solved was his stomach pain, not his energy. The solution to stop his cramps was to stop eating pasta, gels, energy drinks and so on.

It stopped the stomach cramps but now he has no energy instead.

No energy instead? Lets not forget that he was in the front group on Poggio in MSR, and with just one domestique. In RVV he was quiet strong after 240-250k. He has improved this year. It's plausible that his food preperation isn't enough, and it is easy to use this as an explanation, but at the same time one shouldn't forget that it is quiet rare to reach a podium place in tough and long races at just 25 years old. Maybe he just need to develop a bit further in long races before he can really challange.

 

[Trofinios]

Ok, but what does strength and endurance consist of - that's the question.

Watts are just Watts - why can he not produce them later in long hard races. Is it lack of energy, or what?

My point is that this 'engine' thing is a description (and a bad one) not an explanation.

What's so hard to understand? It takes year of training and racing to reach ones peak in long and hard races. The fact can just be that EBH isn't there yet. He has improved a bit this year, maybe 2-3 more years and he can be competitive right to the end.

 

[jens_attacks]

i don't agree with the uk postal fail thing
they were very strong but even when they were chasing full-gas,3 or 4 of them,tommeke was still keeping the time gap.he was too strong.keep in mind that if sky wouldn't have chased,tom could won with 4 minutes gap i think
at least they tried,that's it.the strongest won today and it was something for the history,epic stuff happened today,be happy we could witness something like this

 

[Red Rick]

Incredible victory by Boonen. He won a whole lot of respect today. I saw him thinking something like: Cancellara isn't there, who's gonna win this race with an attack at 55 km now? Hmmm, small chance of succes, almost certain death, let's do it

 

[Lanark]

Ok, but what does strength and endurance consist of - that's the question.

Watts are just Watts - why can he not produce them later in long hard races. Is it lack of energy, or what?

My point is that this 'engine' thing is a description (and a bad one) not an explanation.

But why are you asking that question on a cycling forum? Most of us don't have a PHD in physiology.

It's just a fact of cycling that there is a significant group of riders who are good to great in races of 200km, but can't compete in races of 250km. Especially young riders, a lot of them need a couple of years to handle the distance (even Sagan couldn't do it in his first two years), some never make that last step. It could be that all those riders have some energy problem that prohibits them to handle the distance, that suddenly solves itself after a couple of years (or never, in some cases). I don't know, and I don't know enough about the science behind it to make a usefull speculation. Until that time I'm happy to conclude that Hagen just doesn't have the engine (yet) to handle the real classics

 

[search]

Euskaltel's favourite day out of the year ends with the reward of 79th place, IZAGIRRE INSAUSTI Ion + 13' 05"

I hope he won't be blamed too much for being the reason to miss the early flight home again...

but in the end, they didn't do much worse than Liquigas, Lampre, Greenedge or Lotto. Having two riders finishing the race, one of them even inside the timelimit...

 

[Lexman]

Who's afraid of who Hushovd? Who's afraid of who?

yeah bye bye Hushovd, at least you bent on your knees for the real king of P-R...