Peter Janssen

He points to the under 23 world road race championship in 2006, where Italians took the first four places with Giulano Figueras, Roberto Sgambelluri, Luca Sironi and Paolo Bettini. “That was the EPO world championship,” he claims.

Paolo Bettini was in the u23 World Championships in 2006?
 
May 18, 2009
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His mistake on the year Bettini rode the U23 world's call into question whether anything in this article can be trusted. LA has every right to question this. :D

Seriously, this is a subject I've always wanted to bring up....using PED's for recovery to normalcy during a GT. I think an argument could be made that drugs like EPO, that can enable a rider to maintain a consistent HT, are not PED's. I have bolded the part of the previous sentence so I want get piled on here for stating I am for it. I am just tossing this out for discussion.

RaceRadio, recall on DPF (when you posted under that other username ;)) there was a poster called goldenear that pushed this POV, though I believe most of us piled on him. One could argue that any type of supplement like vitamins that is not obtained from normal food intake of a rider is a PED. Those supplements are used to maintain levels in the body that the GT depletes, and cannot be replace thru normal food intake.

PED's like roids would not fall within this argument from my POV because they enable the body to be "more than" is naturally possible.....
 

buckwheat

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ChrisE said:
His mistake on the year Bettini rode the U23 world's call into question whether anything in this article can be trusted. LA has every right to question this. :D

Seriously, this is a subject I've always wanted to bring up....using PED's for recovery to normalcy during a GT. I think an argument could be made that drugs like EPO, that can enable a rider to maintain a consistent HT, are not PED's. I have bolded the part of the previous sentence so I want get piled on here for stating I am for it. I am just tossing this out for discussion.

RaceRadio, recall on DPF (when you posted under that other username ;)) there was a poster called goldenear that pushed this POV, though I believe most of us piled on him. One could argue that any type of supplement like vitamins that is not obtained from normal food intake of a rider is a PED. Those supplements are used to maintain levels in the body that the GT depletes, and cannot be replace thru normal food intake.

PED's like roids would not fall within this argument from my POV because they enable the body to be "more than" is naturally possible.....

So according to this argument (not yours of course) topical Testoterone would be fine as long as you don't apply so much as to go higher than the normal range.

BTW, there is a huge difference between high normal and low normal testosterone levels.

IMHO, it's pretty clear that taking a multi vitamin and eating food, is entirely different in spirit and even the letter of the law than taking half of this junk from GNC, like NO Explode or some other such garbage.

The problem is that the culture of cycling and most other sports is completely divorced from the mentality formerly advanced by the Olympic movement.

Unfortunately Brave New World is upon us. Pro cycling as well as the rest of the world has been on a soma holiday for a while.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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ChrisE said:
His mistake on the year Bettini rode the U23 world's call into question whether anything in this article can be trusted. LA has every right to question this. :D

Seriously, this is a subject I've always wanted to bring up....using PED's for recovery to normalcy during a GT. I think an argument could be made that drugs like EPO, that can enable a rider to maintain a consistent HT, are not PED's. I have bolded the part of the previous sentence so I want get piled on here for stating I am for it. I am just tossing this out for discussion.

RaceRadio, recall on DPF (when you posted under that other username ;)) there was a poster called goldenear that pushed this POV, though I believe most of us piled on him. One could argue that any type of supplement like vitamins that is not obtained from normal food intake of a rider is a PED. Those supplements are used to maintain levels in the body that the GT depletes, and cannot be replace thru normal food intake.

PED's like roids would not fall within this argument from my POV because they enable the body to be "more than" is naturally possible.....

I think it was a mistranslation of the Velonation writer.

While many have tried to justify PED by equating them with vitamins the fact is there are no vitamins or food products that can lead to an increase in output of 13% in a highly trained professional.
 
May 18, 2009
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Race Radio said:
I think it was a mistranslation of the Velonation writer.

While many have tried to justify PED by equating them with vitamins the fact is there are no vitamins or food products that can lead to an increase in output of 13% in a highly trained professional.

That's not what I mean. Hct falls over 3 weeks....just use EPO to keep it within "normal" range. Not increase it to achieve the gains you describe.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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ChrisE said:
That's not what I mean. Hct falls over 3 weeks....just use EPO to keep it within "normal" range. Not increase it to achieve the gains you describe.

you can also just ride slower or drop out
 
ChrisE said:
That's not what I mean. Hct falls over 3 weeks....just use EPO to keep it within "normal" range. Not increase it to achieve the gains you describe.

In that case (grand tours) "normal" is see your Hct falling. So if you use EPO to maintain the same Hct level during a GT, you're not trying to reach a "normal" level. Thus it's perfectly legit doping and yes I would call that "performance enhancing" :)
 
Apr 19, 2010
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Well there is a interesting argument I read in one of threads on here the other week that it would be better to bring back the 50% rule, stop testing for EPO and scrap the biopassport. That would be fairer in many ways than the blood passport system where it's in the eye of the beholder who is doping and who is not, who gets suspended and who does not. Just allow everyone to keep it at 50% and see who comes out on top. I can see the logic in that.

As for dangers, there is no doubt that it can be a dangerous drug, but not at the 50% level.
 
Eyjafjallajokull said:
Well there is a interesting argument I read in one of threads on here the other week that it would be better to bring back the 50% rule, stop testing for EPO and scrap the biopassport. That would be fairer in many ways than the blood passport system where it's in the eye of the beholder who is doping and who is not, who gets suspended and who does not. Just allow everyone to keep it at 50% and see who comes out on top. I can see the logic in that.

Except for the fact that not everyone starts at the same base level. If I have a natural 'crit of 45, I'm getting way less of a boost than someone with a 'crit of 40. So it's not fair at all.

You should spend more time asking questions and less time providing analysis. You're just not equipped for the latter.
 
Apr 19, 2010
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red_flanders said:
Except for the fact that not everyone starts at the same base level. If I have a natural 'crit of 45, I'm getting way less of a boost than someone with a 'crit of 40. So it's not fair at all.

But would putting everyone at 50% make it more fair?
 
Eyjafjallajokull said:
But would putting everyone at 50% make it more fair?

No. Some would get more advantage out of a 50% limit than others. And those who didn't want to dope would simply have to find a new sport. But I guess that's a pretty small change from what we had in the last two decades anyway...
 
Apr 19, 2010
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red_flanders said:
No. Some would get more advantage out of a 50% limit than others.

Yes I know, but everyone would then have a fair starting point if they gave them all 50% through out a tour. And there is the issue that it would generally make for more interesting racing....
 
Apr 19, 2010
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ChrisE said:
That's not what I mean. Hct falls over 3 weeks....just use EPO to keep it within "normal" range. Not increase it to achieve the gains you describe.

And those gains cited are from quite a small study of sunday club riders. A study of similar size was posted about caffiene effects in this forum and was laughed out of court.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Eyjafjallajokull said:
And those gains cited are from quite a small study of sunday club riders. A study of similar size was posted about caffiene effects in this forum and was laughed out of court.
Not sure what caffiene is - but if it was the 'caffeine study' taken from the Daily Mail that 'Prodigy' posted I am not surprised.

I wonder whatever happened that poster 'Prodigy'?
 
Apr 19, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Not sure what caffiene is - but if it was the 'caffeine study' taken from the Daily Mail that 'Prodigy' posted I am not surprised.

I wonder whatever happened that poster 'Prodigy'?

I see you're not denying it.