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Apr 19, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No, no you're right the caffeine study done by the Daily Mail produced by 'Prodigy' was pretty dumb.

Yeah it was just an interesting bit of infomation - you can't get anything conclusive from a study of that size. I have not stopped taking caffeine gels.

They make you want to post on internet forums late at night though! :)
 
Hægðatregða said:
Yeah it was just an interesting bit of infomation - you can't get anything conclusive from a study of that size. I have not stopped taking caffeine gels.

They make you want to post on internet forums late at night though! :)

Well then just take them in the morning instead of late at night.

I'd rather drink coffee.
 
Silungur Eins Og öxl said:
I don't know why I am so threatening. A bit annoying perhaps, but what's the anger about? I'm just not getting it. :confused: Just can't get any sort of rational dialogue going. Just 'troll' this, 'troll' that. It's so boring.

Yes, calling people troll is a trifle boring. Not sure what the point is. I mean, we all know a true troll when we see one.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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ChrisE said:
That's not what I mean. Hct falls over 3 weeks....just use EPO to keep it within "normal" range. Not increase it to achieve the gains you describe.

I don't get in a big huff if people want to discuss whether some doping should be allowed. But the amount of times people try and discuss increases or decreases in crit etc while ignoring plasma volume does fire my pedantic nerve.

Crit goes down during a GT primarily because plasma volume increases under the extreme exertion. There is nothing normal about increasing crit in those circumstances, because total body hemoglobin would go above the natural level.
 

Joey_J

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I Watch Cycling In July said:
Crit goes down during a GT primarily because plasma volume increases under the extreme exertion. There is nothing normal about increasing crit in those circumstances, because total body hemoglobin would go above the natural level.

A very simple theory. Can you provide the data that substantiates this theory?

I assume you have data from 50 cyclists (a representative sample) from last year’s Tour, Giro or Vuelta to back that up. That would mean at least 10 data points per cyclist.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Here's a reference:
Schumacher YO, Pottgiesser T, Ahlgrim C, et al: Haemoglobin mass in cyclists during stage racing. Int J Sports Med 29(5):372-8, 2008.

"Haemoglobin mass (pre-race 958 +/- 123 g, end race 948 +/- 106 g) and red cell volume did not change significantly over the study period, while plasma volume and blood volume tended to increase..... During the study, a plasma volume expansion as adaptation to prolonged exercise occurred. Haemoglobin concentration and haematocrit decreased accordingly, whereas haemoglobin mass remained stable. "

I double checked that my understanding of this was correct with a medical doctor who posts here sometimes. He did a fuller literature review and his comments are here. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=83969&postcount=71
 
Joey_J said:
A very simple theory. Can you provide the data that substantiates this theory?

I assume you have data from 50 cyclists (a representative sample) from last year’s Tour, Giro or Vuelta to back that up. That would mean at least 10 data points per cyclist.

Can you provide the data which substantiates the theory that higher pedaling cadence improves cycling performance? Thanks.
 

Joey_J

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I Watch Cycling In July said:
Here's a reference:
Schumacher YO, Pottgiesser T, Ahlgrim C, et al: Haemoglobin mass in cyclists[/url]

Thank you. But you didn’t provide raw data. You provided an analysis/conclusion of the raw data that I asked for. Sorry, but I’m a raw data kind of guy. I don’t like to be told what to think.

I want Frank Schleck's data. Sammy S's data Levi L's data. You get the picture.

Grand pa running on a tred milll doesn't cut it.
 

Joey_J

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Hugh Januss said:
Can you provide the data which substantiates the theory that higher pedaling cadence improves cycling performance? Thanks.

Easy; watch LeMond crawling up the mountains in the 91’ Tour. Cadence what, 60?? Indurain 90.
Watch LA up La Alpe du Huez, cadence is 100.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
Go look for the data yourself then. I have no interest in entertaining trolls.
were the conclusions re hemodilution outpacing other factors drawn for the proper time period. iow, for a three week stage race ?

you know a 4-day race (which is my information) is very different from a 21 d gt.

it's well documented that accumulated racing loads depress hormonal levels and it would be unsurprising to see a depressed hemopoiesis causing reduced tHb mass by the 3d week.
 
May 18, 2009
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TomasC said:
In that case (grand tours) "normal" is see your Hct falling. So if you use EPO to maintain the same Hct level during a GT, you're not trying to reach a "normal" level. Thus it's perfectly legit doping and yes I would call that "performance enhancing" :)

You could use this argument to outlaw taking vitamin supplements as well, for example.
 
May 18, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
I don't get in a big huff if people want to discuss whether some doping should be allowed. But the amount of times people try and discuss increases or decreases in crit etc while ignoring plasma volume does fire my pedantic nerve.

Crit goes down during a GT primarily because plasma volume increases under the extreme exertion. There is nothing normal about increasing crit in those circumstances, because total body hemoglobin would go above the natural level.

There's no reason to get in a "huff". This is interesting stuff you have posted. Thanks.

I can't find them, but can somebody post LA's and Wiggins' blood values from last tour to compare this assertion?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Joey_J said:
Thank you. But you didn’t provide raw data. You provided an analysis/conclusion of the raw data that I asked for. Sorry, but I’m a raw data kind of guy. I don’t like to be told what to think.

I want Frank Schleck's data. Sammy S's data Levi L's data. You get the picture.

Grand pa running on a tred milll doesn't cut it.

You did write this before, didn't you?

Joey_J said:
I wonder who Anne Gripper was referring to when she said “Amateur arm-chair hematologists?” BroDeal, Blackcat, Escarabajo, RR, Dr M., or all of the above?
And no, she wasn’t laughing with you..

I am sure Anne appreciates the irony as much as I do.
 
Joey_J said:
Easy; watch LeMond crawling up the mountains in the 91’ Tour. Cadence what, 60?? Indurain 90.
Watch LA up La Alpe du Huez, cadence is 100.

um...kinda proves the point. if your blood is boosted with more oxygen carrying cells you would naturally choose to tax your aerobic system by spinning more. so the use of higher cadence from 1991 on by individual riders could be associated simply with cheating. in the case of armstrong and indurain i am sure you would be right.