Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Oh god. What Boonen said was completely harmless. He's brilliant to watch on tv, it's like he's talking with some mates about cycling with a few beers. Super spontaneous, heart on the tongue and often just joking around. And he provides great insight in the peloton with all his experience.

Whoever calls this 'bashing' or 'criticizing' has no idea what he's talking about.
 
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Flamin said:
Oh god. What Boonen said was completely harmless. He's brilliant to watch on tv, it's like he's talking with some mates about cycling with a few beers. Super spontaneous, heart on the tongue and often just joking around. And he provides great insight in the peloton with all his experience.

Whoever calls this 'bashing' or 'criticizing' has no idea what he's talking about.
I trust you on that. I wish I understand Flemish and can watch races in Sporza while he is commenting.
Unfortunately we can only read what is written here on CN and I am sure the most is lost in translation.
I have absolutely no hard feelings against him , just trying to comment his statements.
It is just hard for me to listen from this legend that Sagan is "always" on someone wheel".
 
Jul 1, 2013
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There's no need to analyze every sigle word of Boonen or Tchmil, the message is important. And the message is that although he (Sagan) is factually mostly right and his position in peloton is difficult, he should stop talking about it or change the way he's expressing himself. Because it's not classy and cycling fans don't like complaining. It's a tough sport attracting people who admire tough athletes. People didn't like Cancellara's whining either, nor Boonen's.
 
Jul 1, 2013
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One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!
 
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wayahead said:
One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!
Wasn't MSR 17 also his first big race with Bora? Perhaps the change of team influenced his change in attitude. Bora is basically a team and entire project built for him and with the expectation that he will deliver consistently. A bit more pressure than at Tinkoff where there were other big stars and an owner whose antics could deflect some of the scrutiny away from the riders.

I think he struggles to handle pressure well. Which could be why the majority of his big victories have come riding for his country with relatively low expectations on him to win, compared with in the classics, where he is kind of expected to win every race he enters.
 
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wayahead said:
One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!
Much earlier. I would say TDF 2014 when Gallopin won the stage. Waw it is almost 4 years.
 
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SKSemtex said:
Flamin said:
Oh god. What Boonen said was completely harmless. He's brilliant to watch on tv, it's like he's talking with some mates about cycling with a few beers. Super spontaneous, heart on the tongue and often just joking around. And he provides great insight in the peloton with all his experience.

Whoever calls this 'bashing' or 'criticizing' has no idea what he's talking about.
I trust you on that. I wish I understand Flemish and can watch races in Sporza while he is commenting.
Unfortunately we can only read what is written here on CN and I am sure the most is lost in translation.
I have absolutely no hard feelings against him , just trying to comment his statements.
It is just hard for me to listen from this legend that Sagan is "always" on someone wheel".
Boonen is very authentic. He shouldn't be translated actually :)
 
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DFA123 said:
wayahead said:
One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!
Wasn't MSR 17 also his first big race with Bora? Perhaps the change of team influenced his change in attitude. Bora is basically a team and entire project built for him and with the expectation that he will deliver consistently. A bit more pressure than at Tinkoff where there were other big stars and an owner whose antics could deflect some of the scrutiny away from the riders.

I think he struggles to handle pressure well. Which could be why the majority of his big victories have come riding for his country with relatively low expectations on him to win, compared with in the classics, where he is kind of expected to win every race he enters.
LOL.What a BS. His wins in WCRR has nothing to do with expectations or pressure. His wins in WCRR is all about other people trying to win instead of him to lose.

Give him the team like QS and he will win 90% of one-day races except for those ones that are completely flat or the ones with climbs longer 3000 km ).
 
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SKSemtex said:
DFA123 said:
wayahead said:
One more remark - when did he began to complain? I think it started massively after his MSR '17 defeat. He was strong as bull but lost anyway. Immediatelly after the race he adressed harsh words in his native language to his buddies in sprint, then incident with Terpstra followed, war of words with Steppers, tactical mistake on Kapelmuur, he became distracted. After MSR '17 he stopped to race so agressively then before (maybe with exception of P-R), he tries to be more "smart" even when strong, complains about lack of cooperation. So who to blame? Kwiatkowski!
Wasn't MSR 17 also his first big race with Bora? Perhaps the change of team influenced his change in attitude. Bora is basically a team and entire project built for him and with the expectation that he will deliver consistently. A bit more pressure than at Tinkoff where there were other big stars and an owner whose antics could deflect some of the scrutiny away from the riders.

I think he struggles to handle pressure well. Which could be why the majority of his big victories have come riding for his country with relatively low expectations on him to win, compared with in the classics, where he is kind of expected to win every race he enters.
LOL.What a BS. His wins in WCRR has nothing to do with expectations or pressure. His wins in WCRR is all about other people trying to win instead of him to lose.

Give him the team like QS and he will win 90% of one-day races except for those ones that are completely flat or the ones with climbs longer 3000 km ).
This is utterly absurd and an embarrassing misunderstanding of race dynamics. The precise reason that Quickstep are winning so many races is because they have several leaders of equal standing, which makes them almost impossible to mark. If they had one clear leader (who 'will win 90% of one-day races' :eek: ) then their main strength - that of having so many potential winning options - would be completely redundant.

The fact is that Sagan does have an entire team built around him, to support him in the Classics. More so than any other team apart from Quickstep. But he either can't, or doesn't know how to use it effectively. As Boonen says, he needs to stop complaining and start focusing on his own race. First of which is dealing with the pressure and responsibility of being the favourite for many races.
 
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
 
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saganftw said:
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
I think the only oversensitive people around these parts are Sagan fanboys. The guys has faults like anyone else, it's fair to be discussing them. He doesn't seem to have taken the criticism from Boonen personally, so maybe his fans should respond likewise.

The fact is that he has started moaning a lot and blaming everyone else after losing race after race in the last year or so. First it was Kwiatkowski, then it was GVA, now it is Quickstep. The common denominator though is Sagan. He needs to sort out this part of his psychology, because right now it's clearly not beneficial to his performance. Which is what I think Boonen was getting at.
 
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saganftw said:
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
So anyone that criticizes Sagan is oversensitive ? Sagan is starting to sound like Quintana. Always something. And it's embarrassing to listen to from a multiple world champion who knows how the sport works. If it continues he is on his way to being the next Cancellara whining like a mosquito after every loss. At Flanders QS rode a great team race and finished first and second and there is obviously nothing Sagan or anyone else could do about it.......except whine.
 
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DFA123 said:
saganftw said:
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
I think the only oversensitive people around these parts are Sagan fanboys. The guys has faults like anyone else, it's fair to be discussing them. He doesn't seem to have taken the criticism from Boonen personally, so maybe his fans should respond likewise.

The fact is that he has started moaning a lot and blaming everyone else after losing race after race in the last year or so. First it was Kwiatkowski, then it was GVA, now it is Quickstep. The common denominator though is Sagan. He needs to sort out this part of his psychology, because right now it's clearly not beneficial to his performance. Which is what I think Boonen was getting at.
its funny how you say sagan doesnt take the criticism personally,yet you are not afraid to guess complaining is not beneficial to his performance - you should be making 200 bucks an hour with your talents

anyway my simple point is complaining has nothing to do with his performance on the road,its has actually everything to do with how much others screw their tactics - if quickstep play their cards well they will win P-R,not because sagan is not focusing on his own performance but because they have 4 guys who can win it and you cannot beat all 4 of them

and boonen should probably lay off the coke with his "salbutamol doping is ridiculous" and "sagan is first one to drag"
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
saganftw said:
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
So anyone that criticizes Sagan is oversensitive ? Sagan is starting to sound like Quintana. Always something. And it's embarrassing to listen to from a multiple world champion who knows how the sport works. If it continues he is on his way to being the next Cancellara whining like a mosquito after every loss. At Flanders QS rode a great team race and finished first and second and there is obviously nothing Sagan or anyone else could do about it.......except whine.
anyone who complains about other people complaining is oversensitive - but at least you have the decency to not flaunt your internet degree in psychology and act like sagan just wasnt focused enough on his own race to beat quickstep...they won because they played their cards perfectly,not because others just werent focused on their own race
 
Mar 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
saganftw said:
what does ability or inability to deal with pressure have with riding against 4 very good cyclists? it doesnt matter how strong you are,mentally or physically - its almost impossible to outplay 4 guys unless there is a huge obstacle on the course where you can drop all 4 of them

same reason SKY wins TdF or warriors win NBA finals (and if it wasnt for injuries,they would have 3 in a row going for 4th this year),they have too many good guys and the rest of the field dont - what does it matter how strong Quintana or LeBron is mentally when in the end they run into a wall? what does it matter if they complain or dont complain when the result is inevitable? (btw watch quickstep win P-R on sunday,because one of them will get away)

GvA doesnt complain - how is that working for him? I guess only reason LeBron doesnt have any chance of winning this year is because he is just too distracted right? or maybe its because warriors when healthy have 2 out of 3 and 4 out of 15 best players in the NBA

stop with this armchair psychology "i need to focus on my own race" and then what? lose anyway because quickstep has 4 potential winners

all complaining does is annoying oversensitive people
So anyone that criticizes Sagan is oversensitive ? Sagan is starting to sound like Quintana. Always something. And it's embarrassing to listen to from a multiple world champion who knows how the sport works. If it continues he is on his way to being the next Cancellara whining like a mosquito after every loss. At Flanders QS rode a great team race and finished first and second and there is obviously nothing Sagan or anyone else could do about it.......except whine.
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KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Sagan said he has for P.L. nice present and he will go out with T.B. to pinch some girls.
 
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SKSemtex said:
Nirvana said:
Also Andrei Tchmil said that Sagan should shut his mouth and stop criticizing other riders. I'm watching the last "Sui pedali magazine" where he was interviewed and when the presentator asked him about Sagan he litarally said "non mi piace", he said that he's a rider that talk a lot and win a few and he likes the opposite, riders that win a lot and talk a few. And added that Sagan should start to win by himself without asking cooperation from other riders.
Question is. How can one win only by himself unless he is top TT. To the certain point, you need to ride in the peloton and use the help of other riders.

To the point, he talks too much and wins a few I summarize his after RVV interview. And it is really not so much whining in it. Isn´t it.

"Quick-Step are a good team because they have a lot of riders on a good level, so they can play with a few cards. Quick-Step did another very nice race, and other teams were missing a bit in terms of collaboration.

"I'm not the only rider to beat," Sagan continued. "There are 200 of us in the race. They made a mistake, I think, because that way Quick-Step will go and win all the races."

"It's very hard to race in my position in the group," he said. "When other riders don't wake up, it's going to be like this."

"I'm very happy. I felt well. I did the maximum I could, so I'm happy with my performance. As for how the race went, it was a race like any other," he said.

"I'm very happy about my performance and also how the race finished. You know, a lot of things I couldn't change. I am just glad I did my maximum."

"Oh well," he shrugged. "The season still continues."
At 2016 Ronde he went solo and he succeded, you don't need to be a time trialist to drop everyone.
The real problem is that his actual race plan to wait for the sprint isn't working, he won only in Gent where there was Quickstep that wanted to control the race for Viviani.
 
If Sagan had a team like QS he would still win a lot more, I disagree with what DFA says above.
Quick STep could just control the race until even the last sector or climb and go for Sagan in a very small group sprint with still 3/4 QS riders and only 1 leader from other teams

Plus if Sagan goes solo after the last climb, the other QS riders could block any chasing attempt. When Sagan goes solo now, they all pull him back, because there is no Bora rider to slow it down.
 
Yeah it's very hard for Sagan to win with his team situation. He was strong in de Ronde, but he can't miss any move, he can't attack too much, he can't win solo, so he's down to hoping he doesn't miss the winning move and win the sprint

Wasting Oss before the Kruisberg was a dumb move. Not being onto Terpstra was a terrible move. The last one you can blame everyone for, because what followed was incredibly predictable.
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
If Sagan had a team like QS he would still win a lot more, I disagree with what DFA says above.
Quick STep could just control the race until even the last sector or climb and go for Sagan in a very small group sprint with still 3/4 QS riders and only 1 leader from other teams

Plus if Sagan goes solo after the last climb, the other QS riders could block any chasing attempt. When Sagan goes solo now, they all pull him back, because there is no Bora rider to slow it down.
You've missed the point. Quickstep wouldn't be the Quickstep we have now with Sagan riding for them. If Sagan was de facto leader for every race, then riders like Stybar, Gilbert, Terpstra wouldn't all be there - they are riders that need their own opportunities to win.

Look at Gilbert this season, he's won nothing despite looking one of the strongest riders. Could you imagine Sagan being happy in that same situation? And if not, it messes up the whole team dynamics.
 
Apr 2, 2018
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Nirvana said:
SKSemtex said:
Nirvana said:
Also Andrei Tchmil said that Sagan should shut his mouth and stop criticizing other riders. I'm watching the last "Sui pedali magazine" where he was interviewed and when the presentator asked him about Sagan he litarally said "non mi piace", he said that he's a rider that talk a lot and win a few and he likes the opposite, riders that win a lot and talk a few. And added that Sagan should start to win by himself without asking cooperation from other riders.
At 2016 Ronde he went solo and he succeded, you don't need to be a time trialist to drop everyone.
The real problem is that his actual race plan to wait for the sprint isn't working
, he won only in Gent where there was Quickstep that wanted to control the race for Viviani.
Right - you do not need be a time trialist to drop everyone - to that you need explosive power (in that regard Sagan is a keg of C4)……but you need to pull out decisive timetrial performance to hold the gap you created by attack to the finish line (if we are talking about 13 km distance)

My hypothesis is that he was not waiting for sprint - in my opinion his plan A) was to attack on Paterberg (sprint is allways an option if the Paterber attack wouldn't succeed as a plan B)
 
Apr 2, 2018
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Red Rick said:
Yeah it's very hard for Sagan to win with his team situation. He was strong in de Ronde, but he can't miss any move, he can't attack too much, he can't win solo, so he's down to hoping he doesn't miss the winning move and win the sprint

Wasting Oss before the Kruisberg was a dumb move. Not being onto Terpstra was a terrible move. The last one you can blame everyone for, because what followed was incredibly predictable.
What would have followed if Sagand went with Terpstra was also incredibly predictable ………and to the extend that i find it hard to believe that this line of reasoning is still present in the debate.

But maybe you suggest that Oss should be the one to follow Terpstra - if yes - than i agree - i am also inclined to believe that Oss should have be saved for covering exactly those terpstrasque attacks - as many as he could.

But yeah, i guess - there was probably idea that Oss was supposed to sustain hard tempo to postpone the beginning of QS attacking carousel (first Terpstra, than Štybar, than Gilbert and if needed second round) as late as possible - in best scenario to Paterberg.
 

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