Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[gruppeto993]

all this cancellara/sagan hate going around here is a bit ridiculous. Sagan is young, naive and his amazing talent gives him his ego. He will grow and mature and will learn the unwritten codes of the peleton. Let him be, his victory salutes are flamboyant but I am sure he doesn't mean any harm.
Cancellara? Give the guy a break. Of course he has become extremely annoyed of riders following his wheel and not willing or trying to collaborate with him whatsoever only to out sprint him on the finish line. I think Gilbert said in an interview that if he ended up with a guy like cancellara, he would do a bit more work since he himself is a faster finisher in order to make the sprint fair.

These two have a rivalry and it should be interesting to see who has the winning formula in the upcoming classics.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

He was talking about Sagan being 'no gentleman', because he excessively celebrated his Seraing stage win after wheelsucking Fabian.

That's what Ciolek did yesterday or Gerrans last year. Someone calls it wheelsucking, I call it smart riding. Cancellara didn't have to pull in Seraing, just like Sagan didn't have to pull yesterday. Sagan at least is not whining about others not taking turns.

 

[Pentacycle]

That's what Ciolek did yesterday or Gerrans last year. Someone calls it wheelsucking, I call it smart riding. Cancellara didn't have to pull in Seraing, just like Sagan didn't have to pull yesterday. Sagan at least is not whining about others not taking turns.

Ciolek wasn't celebrating his wheelsucking as blatantly as Sagan did in the Tour. Cancellara feels Sagan doesn't give him respect for doing all the work.

 

[gruppeto993]

That's what Ciolek did yesterday or Gerrans last year. Someone calls it wheelsucking, I call it smart riding. Cancellara didn't have to pull in Seraing, just like Sagan didn't have to pull yesterday. Sagan at least is not whining about others not taking turns.

I agree that thats smart racing. But I understand why cancellara is annoyed, this has been happening ever since 2011 over and over again. He has had about 10 classics podium placing because of doing all the work only to get out sprinted. He had enough and took it all out on sagan's tour 2012 stage 1 last year. Im sure sagan will act the same way once he gets beaten on the finish numerous times having done all the work. And so will any other rider.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Ciolek wasn't celebrating his wheelsucking as blatantly as Sagan did in the Tour. Cancellara feels Sagan doesn't give him respect for doing all the work.

Sure, Sagan is much younger and more emotional. He will grow up.

And he certainly gave credit to Cancellara. He said many times he wanted to take turns but was denied by Liquigas manager.

I believe all this Canc/Sagan rivalry is just created by media. We will see both of them working together in a break on Thursday or Saturday.

 

[Arnout]

Ciolek wasn't celebrating his wheelsucking as blatantly as Sagan did in the Tour. Cancellara feels Sagan doesn't give him respect for doing all the work.

Is Cancellara employed by Sagan? Is there any relationship between the two? It's like Peugeot saying BMW should give them respect for selling cheap and crap cars as that gives BMW the opportunity to market good-quality cars.

Crappy analogy, nearly as crappy as Peugeot cars

 

[Angliru]

The rational bit of my brain absolutely agrees with this, and as Sagan seems like he's a once in a generation level of awesome I also agree that we will be honoured to have witnessed his rise and be talking in misty eyed reverence in twenty years.

And yet, even though I know you're almost certainly right about the youthful exuberance, I can't help but find some of his celebrations just the wrong side of smug and self-satisfied, to the degree that the shot of his face as Ciolek beats him yesterday is kind of funny. I guess this reflects more badly on me than Peter Sagan though. . .

He's still a competitor and his response to Ciolek beating him is one of surprise and possibly disappointment in himself for underestimating Ciolek. As many have said, his focus was likely on Cancellara and being a less experienced pro maybe he didn't know what Ciolek's attributes were and what a threat he was. Likely looked at what team he was riding for and dismissed him, to his own regret.

Can Cavendish's celebrations be seen as any different than Ciolek's?

 

[gruppeto993]

Sure, Sagan is much younger and more emotional. He will grow up.

And he certainly gave credit to Cancellara. He said many times he wanted to take turns but was denied by Liquigas manager.

I believe all this Canc/Sagan rivalry is just created by media. We will see both of them working together in a break on Thursday or Saturday.

Didn't sagan say that he couldnt take turns since cancellara was so strong?
And whilst the media love to create rivalries, I don't believe that we will see these two ever working together. Whilst sagan will be willing to cooperate since he can always out sprint him for the win, cancellara will not collaborate with sagan under any circumstances. and not just sagan, I think he won't collaborate with anyone who isnt willing to take turns.

 

[El Pistolero]

I agree that thats smart racing. But I understand why cancellara is annoyed, this has been happening ever since 2011 over and over again. He has had about 10 classics podium placing because of doing all the work only to get out sprinted. He had enough and took it all out on sagan's tour 2012 stage 1 last year. Im sure sagan will act the same way once he gets beaten on the finish numerous times having done all the work. And so will any other rider.

Lol, Cancellara has 'only' podiumed 6 Monuments in his career. He has never podiumed a classic that wasn't a Monument.

I've never seen him feature in races like Paris-Tours, Amstel Gold Race, Clasica San Sebastian, Gent-Wevelgem(ok he did an attack with Sagan there last year, but that's all I can remember and wasn't much of a threat anyway), Flèche Wallonne, etc.

I don't even remember him doing much in semi-classics like Omloop het Volk, Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne, Scheldeprijs, Giro del Piemonte, Brabantse Pijl, Dwars door Vlaanderen(helped Breschel win in 2010 though), etc.

 

[tomorrow]

... I think he won't collaborate with anyone who isnt willing to take turns.

Well, doesn't colaborating mean, that the other rider wants to take turns?

By the way, as far as sagan collaborating with fabian is concerned, I think he collaborated with fabian 1 or 2 times before the tdf during the classics and then they both didn't succeed to win because they were caught. I think it's obvious that sagan didn't collaborate with fabs in the first stage of tdf because fabs was in yellow and working with fabs would mean increasing fab's distance on nibali. Even if it wasn't commanded to him not to colaborate, sagan would have figured it himself. And yes, from the overall point of view, fab's distance to nibali shouldn't have mattered as fabian wasn't keeping the yellow for long either way. Another thing would be if sagan distanced fabian so much in the end, that he would have worn the yellow. Only then would fabian got furious I think, but then again, it would be smart ride from sagan, same as yesterday from ciolek.

 

[Angliru]

Ciolek wasn't celebrating his wheelsucking as blatantly as Sagan did in the Tour. Cancellara feels Sagan doesn't give him respect for doing all the work.

Cancellara has had a nice run of big wins but must face up to the fact that his opponents have figured him out and most importantly he's not the force he once was. Obviously he's frustrated by this turn of events as evidenced by his statements to the media. He even whined about the parcours of a particular stage at T-A. If he's the often self-proclaimed gladiator that is set upon by the masses on his lonesome he simply needs to buck up and just fight on minus the tears and belly aching.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Didn't sagan say that he couldnt take turns since cancellara was so strong?

He said both actually. Sagan averaged 490 watts in the last 2 and half minutes of Seraing stage which is like resting for him. He was good enough to make 1000 W sprint just a few seconds later so don't tell me he didn't take turns because he was done

 

[movingtarget]

That's what Ciolek did yesterday or Gerrans last year. Someone calls it wheelsucking, I call it smart riding. Cancellara didn't have to pull in Seraing, just like Sagan didn't have to pull yesterday. Sagan at least is not whining about others not taking turns.

Funny how different riders provoke different responses. Gerrans got hammered last year for only taking one turn. Ciolek never looked like doing a turn and most people seem happy for him to win because he does not win much I suppose. Cancellara has been with the Schlecks for too long. Even Jens starting whining about dangerous descents etc after riding with the other whiners for too long and he is supposed to be one of the hard men. If Cancellara is only going to try and win solo he won't win many races although his sprint is underrated. If Sagan wants to showboat a little, why not, every sport needs a few characters. Every time Cancellara stands on a podium now after being beaten he looks like a victim. Like someone has stolen something from him.

 

[The Hitch]

Funny how different riders provoke different responses. Gerrans got hammered last year for only taking one turn. Ciolek never looked like doing a turn and most people seem happy for him to win because he does not win much I suppose. Cancellara has been with the Schlecks for too long. Even Jens starting whining about dangerous descents etc after riding with the other whiners for too long and he is supposed to be one of the hard men. If Cancellara is only going to try and win solo he won't win many races although his sprint is underrated. If Sagan wants to showboat a little, why not, every sport needs a few characters. Every time Cancellara stands on a podium now after being beaten he looks like a victim. Like someone has stolen something from him.

I think it's because gerrans was in a 3 man group, whereas ciolek was in a 5 then 6 man group where there was far more room for chaos, surprise attacks confusion etc.

Secondly gerrans was in a break that was metres away from a chasing peloton whereas cioleks group this year had a little bit of a gap.

I dont think there's anything smart about it though. It's the most obvious tactic there is. Hang on and benefit from the work of others who exhaust themselves. Particularly gerrans last year.

I'd say it's similar to constantly telling someone you borrowed money off that you will pay them back next time, until eventually they forget, or give up, and you don't have to pay the money back. Yeah well done you won, but it's not like there was anything smart about it. and you best hope it was a big race you did it at cos your credit rating is going down.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I'd say it's similar to constantly telling someone you borrowed money off that you will pay them back next time, until eventually they forget, or give up, and you don't have to pay the money back. Yeah well done you won, but it's not like there was anything smart about it. and you best hope it was a big race you did it at cos your credit rating is going down.

The problem, at least until recently, is that Cancellara was willing to keep lending money to riders until he has all but been nicknamed Lehman Brothers.

 

[Martin]

After rading some posts here I'll tell you just few things.

Sagan kicks a.$.$. more then any other rider.
It will be always like this for a few years now, weaker will have to gather forces and find a tactic against a predator in a doping soaked waters of cycling, they will try to do that by even scandalizing his tactics and winning gestures.

I've never heard him whining about the attitude of other riders.
Please remind me if you did.
Thank you.

PS: Although I am slovak it doesnt really matter to me. I am fan of clean cycling, true characters and pure sportsman behaviour. The most remarkable wheelsucking I remember was bruyneel hanging on indurain in tour 95. I am really glad we are discussing tactics far from that today.

 

[RownhamHill]

I think it's because gerrans was in a 3 man group, whereas ciolek was in a 5 then 6 man group where there was far more room for chaos, surprise attacks confusion etc.

Secondly gerrans was in a break that was metres away from a chasing peloton whereas cioleks group this year had a little bit of a gap.

I dont think there's anything smart about it though. It's the most obvious tactic there is. Hang on and benefit from the work of others who exhaust themselves. Particularly gerrans last year.

I'd say it's similar to constantly telling someone you borrowed money off that you will pay them back next time, until eventually they forget, or give up, and you don't have to pay the money back. Yeah well done you won, but it's not like there was anything smart about it. and you best hope it was a big race you did it at cos your credit rating is going down.

This is a great post, the credit rating metaphor at the end is fantastic.

Presumably Sagan's face at the end on Sunday was when he realised that his balance transfer had been accepted for the new credit card, but because of a missed payment last year he'd he'd just missed out on the advertised 0% deal, and interest was going to be charged on the standard variable rate.

Yeah, OK, so I just thought too much about that.

 

[personal]

Sagan tasted something Cancellara is eating for some time. And it will get worse.

Both of them need more team support.

But, I think that this may be actually good for him. He was winning too easy.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sagan will learn more from this defeat than he would have done from victory. He is a phenom, a young turk with the world at his feet. Bet he feels invincible at the moment but he also needs to mature as a personality and a cyclist if he wants to become one of the sports' greats and realise his amazing potential.

And that's not a dig at his celebrations, just that he needs to understand and appreciate the nuances of the sport better. I recently read Friday Night Lights and see a little of Boobie Miles in Sagan. Or is that the other way around?

 

[Panda Claws]

I cracked some numbers on CQranking

Most points u-25

1. Boasson Hagen 5.795
2. Robert Gesink 5.271
3. Damiano Cunego 5.203
4. Peter Sagan 5.074 (Already)
5. Tom Boonen 4.600
6. Alejandro Valverde 4.313

Sagan has already scored more points than almost any rider at 23 years old than they did before their 25th birthday.

Let's compare to other huge talents of 1990 (or around that age).

Taylor Phinney: 1.672
Michal Kwiatkowski: 1.190
Moreno Moser: 1.234
John Degenkolb: 2.613 (Older)

 

[ILovecycling]

Nice statistics,thank you.
Oh Boonen behind Sagan,poor Tom.Looking forward to Flanders

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I cracked some numbers on CQranking

Most points u-25

1. Boasson Hagen 5.795
2. Robert Gesink 5.271
3. Damiano Cunego 5.203
4. Peter Sagan 5.074 (Already)
5. Tom Boonen 4.600
6. Alejandro Valverde 4.313

Sagan has already scored more points than almost any rider at 23 years old than they did before their 25th birthday.

Let's compare to other huge talents of 1990 (or around that age).

Taylor Phinney: 1.672
Michal Kwiatkowski: 1.190
Moreno Moser: 1.234
John Degenkolb: 2.613 (Older)

Holy cow, did Gesink really score that many points? It makes me kinda sad that he's not better than he is now then.

 

[Netserk]

Boonen's was actually 4601
Cav on his 25th birthday: 3942
Kreuziger: 3595
Contador: 3255
Gilbert: 3089
Goss: 2883
Canc: 2753 (including 11 on his 25th birthday)

 

[SafeBet]

Nibbles 3487
Froomey 559

 

[Panda Claws]

Ranking of those under 25 years old

1. Peter Sagan 5.074
2. John Degenkolb 2.613
3. Tejay Van Garderen 2.601
4. Marcel Kittel 2.051
5. Taylor Phinney 1.672
6. Elia Viviani 1.577
7. Diego Ulissi 1.526
8. Tony Gallopin 1.516
9. Thibaut Pinot 1.367
10. Michael Matthews 1.354
...
Edvald Boasson Hagen at Peter Sagan's current age: 3.211

Sagan is so far ahead of his class phenomenon does not even begin to describe it. Also interesting to see how there are no Belgians or Dutchies on that list.