Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Yeah the deepest, but who would you say is the closest to him around that time?

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Yeah the deepest, but who would you say is the closest to him around that time?

Kwiat.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

Sagan already has a better palmares than Valverde at age 27...

 

[alspacka]

I agree Sagan still needs a few *more years of consistent results to be considered on the level of most of the riders Valv mentioned (not Gilbert imo), but logically he should certainly achieve it and could possibly surpass them all.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

Kwiatko

 

[tobydawq]

I don't know (I updated my post above to highlight my indignance ).

For all his peers (who are 27 to 28) it's impossible to say what place they will end up with in history. For him to already have secured a place among the all-time greats as a 28 year-old when none other from his generation is partciularly close to that is pretty amazing and proof of his extreme class.

It's not like we would have said Nibali was an all-time great six years ago when he had the current age of the 1990's. Valverde hadn't even won the Vuelta at that age, and Contador had barely won the treble. Cancellara had one monument. Boonen was quick to accumulate the big wins, though.

I know I have deviated a bit here but having already won so much at such a young age is making it even more amazing - the way he rides and how he is a reference point for all others in all races is also saying a lot about his status.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Quintana, Kwiatkowski, Aru, Pinot, Bardet, Dumoulin, Chaves, Matthews, Felline, Naesen, Bonhauui, Dillier, Colbrelli, Phinney, Dennis, Bennetts...

There's a seven week period in April-June 1985 that produced Chris Froome, Mark Cavendish, Greg van Avermaet, Tony Martin and Andy Schleck.

 

[Breh]

It's a great win, well deserved for attacking from so far out.
Too bad he's such a clown.

 

[Red Rick]

For me it's

Sagan
Quintana
Dumoulin
Kwiatkowski
Degenkolb/Aru

I think that's all GT and monument winners from a 3 year window there?

Or something. Dumoulin only started aiming for real big stuff outside ITTs last year. Quintana is a pure GT rider with maximum 2 chances per year and a pretty bad strike rate for his ability. Kwiatkowski is a bit similar to Sagan but lighter, meaning he's a worse sprinter and a better climber, but that's not a great trade with his characteristics. Degenkolb is basically a durable sprinter with one miracle season and I consider Aru a guy who could win anywhere between 1 and 3 GTs between Vuelta's and Giro's, but he's now wasted 2 seasons mistiming Tour de France peaks.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Quintana, Kwiatkowski, Aru, Pinot, Bardet, Dumoulin, Chaves, Matthews, Felline, Naesen, Bonhauui, Dillier, Colbrelli, Phinney, Dennis, Bennetts...

There's a seven week period in April-June 1985 that produced Chris Froome, Mark Cavendish, Greg van Avermaet, Tony Martin and Andy Schleck.

Yeah, it's a funny thing to think about the fact that Froome, Porte and Schleck are of the same year when the former two only got their careers rolling after Schleck had shown himself on the biggest stage for the last time.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Quintana, Kwiatkowski, Aru, Pinot, Bardet, Dumoulin, Chaves, Matthews, Felline, Naesen, Bonhauui, Dillier, Colbrelli, Phinney, Dennis, Bennetts...

I wouldn't say that. It seems pretty deep, but a lot of those guys haven't won anything big, and if you look at lesser riders recency bias gets stronger

Right, I phrased it the wrong way... I meant some considered him better than all of those riders, scrap the generation-thing. And I really don't agree with that! I have no clue to why I wrote that.

In his generation he definitely is the best, but riders around his age probably aren't that great anyways - I suppose Quintana is the rider that comes the closest of those? A

What?? The 1990 generation must surely be the strongest of all time... Definitely the deepest.

Quintana, Kwiatkowski, Aru, Pinot, Bardet, Dumoulin, Chaves, Matthews, Felline, Naesen, Bonhauui, Dillier, Colbrelli, Phinney, Dennis, Bennetts...

There's a seven week period in April-June 1985 that produced Chris Froome, Mark Cavendish, Greg van Avermaet, Tony Martin and Andy Schleck.

Then you have Nibali from November '84 and Dutch waste of talent Thomas Dekker from september '84.

 

[Hellyea]

Re: Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

Sagan already has a better palmares than Valverde at age 27...

Did... did you just say something positive regarding Sagan? Wow, are you in love or something?

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Yeah, it's a funny thing to think about the fact that Froome, Porte and Schleck are of the same year when the former two only got their careers rolling after Schleck had shown himself on the biggest stage for the last time.

One of my favourite cycling stats is that Schleck's last victory was before Froome's first despite being younger than him.

Which, in the context of 'generations', shows the fallibility of defining them by birth years.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

I think we have different definitions of generations

I definitely rate Contador, Cancellara, Boonen and Nibali higher than Sagan. Valverde probably too.

No rider that served time for doping should ever be placed on any "all time" list ...

Therefore, Bert and Piti are not eligible and Sagan still has time to add more victories to catch up with Boonen & Cancellara.

Nibali's palmares are slightly different than Sagan's so it comes down to personal preference and with today's specialization, it is very unlikely that we will ever see a GT winner also winning the cobbled classics.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Yeah, it's a funny thing to think about the fact that Froome, Porte and Schleck are of the same year when the former two only got their careers rolling after Schleck had shown himself on the biggest stage for the last time.

One of my favourite cycling stats is that Schleck's last victory was before Froome's first despite being younger than him.

Which, in the context of 'generations', shows the fallibility of defining them by birth years.

That's not even the impressive part. The impressive part is that before Andy Schlecks last pro victory (the Galibier raid), Froome had one single win in 2.1 and higher. A stage in the Tour of Japan.

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

I think we have different definitions of generations

I definitely rate Contador, Cancellara, Boonen and Nibali higher than Sagan. Valverde probably too.

No rider that served time for doping should ever be placed on any "all time" list ...

-----------------

Nibali's palmares are slightly different than Sagan's so it comes down to personal preference and with today's specialization, it is very unlikely that we will ever see a GT winner also winning the cobbled classics.

Let's keep this out of the clinic shall we.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

Sagan already has a better palmares than Valverde at age 27...

Did... did you just say something positive regarding Sagan? Wow, are you in love or something?

I like Sagan , what I don't like is his whining after he loses a race or his annoying fanboys.

 

[hrotha]

1990 > 1971 > any other year you feel like bringing up

 

[jmdirt]

AWESOME to see the stripes win on the stones!

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

1990 > 1971 > any other year you feel like bringing up

Merckx has a better palmares than all of the 1990 riders combined lol.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

1990 > 1971 > any other year you feel like bringing up

Merckx has a better palmares than all of the 1990 riders combined lol.

I was going to say the same thing. And he had also won way more than them all combined, even when he was 27-28 like these guys are now.

Plus Luis Ocana was born 8 days before Merckx. So there's your golden generation.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

1990 > 1971 > any other year you feel like bringing up

Merckx has a better palmares than all of the 1990 riders combined lol.

But one person is not a generation.

Plus, no other year has Camenzind.

 

[cyclopsnoobie]

Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

On the contrary - it looks like he clearly is best cyclist of his generation at the moment - i mean at his 28 y age. Please check procyclings stats web (https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=140797&c=6&rider1=140797&rider2=140750 )and hit “head to head” comparison and then check “By age” comparison chart - NO ONE of those you mentioned (Cancellara, Nibali, Valverde, Contador, Boonen) had even close stats-numbers to him in his age. Maybe Boonen, if you count only BIG wins, he had 4 monument and 1 WC - Sagan has 2 monuments and 3 WC so it is 5:5 in age of 28 y.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Let's keep this out of the clinic shall we.

Sorry, I don't have any desire to talk clinic here. Just not sure how to spell it out and voice my opinion without using those words.

Feel free to edit my post and reword it if you can find a better way of saying it.

Thanks!

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

1990 > 1971 > any other year you feel like bringing up

Merckx has a better palmares than all of the 1990 riders combined lol.

But one person is not a generation.

Plus, no other year has Camenzind.

So why is 1990 so good? It's basically just Sagan and Quintana. A very good versatile sprinter, and the 2nd best stage racer of his generation. Take those two out and you have a bunch of guys who either have one isolated big win to their name, or have achieved absolutely nothing.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Im afraid he still is overrated, particularly in the mainstream media - experts and commentators, for example, stating he is the best cyclist of his generation really rubs me the wrong way. He clearly isn't at this moment. But I am glad that he finally abandoned whining and took the bulls by he horns, just like Boonen advised him to.

Who's the best rider of this generation?

Well, I rate all of Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Nibali, Gilbert and Valverde higher than Sagan.

Sagan already has a better palmares than Valverde at age 27...

Did... did you just say something positive regarding Sagan? Wow, are you in love or something?

No. He just said something negative regarding Valverde, which he always does...