squampton said:Ya cause Lance was likely the 1st person to ever dope in cycling so what choice did they have in that era !!
um...you misunderstand me. i think the thinking was -- after 1998 -- that maybe, if riders stopped using epo, ullrich's natural talents would rule without the need to dope. however, when they saw amstrong's transformation, they knew that the only way to compete was to continue doing epo. this follows exactly the comments of the estimable david walsh
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larryduff said:
Ulle's career was in the crapper and the brass at T-Mobile were tired of his antics. He had just missed his 2nd Tour to injury, had gotten busted for DUI and recreational drugs... His personal life was a wreck and they didn't know if he'd ever get it all back together.
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perico said:
And don't forget that he crashed his Porsche into a bike stand- hay, that is a bike rack car wreck- and I want to hear Freud's thoughts on that!!
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+1.hrotha said:
One thing is having a team organize doping and another to have riders doping on their own, or at least telling them where to get the services. No way Ullrich was clean in 2000 and 2001.
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It's obvious Pevenage will try to deflect as much as poss onto Armstrong. Firstly, he still can't say the truth which is that cycling = doping since the beginning; and secondly, if you're associated with Ullrich (or pretty much anyone else from the '00s) you must be sick to death that everyone else got nailed and one doper is a squillionaire and rubbing everyone's faces in it by still racing.
la.margna said:Yes, the cyclingnews version/translation is scandalous, it almsot entirely does not mention the Pharmstrong part... money talks, sadly also here
yep once again cyclingnews shows their bias with the translation.
perico said:
Patrick Sinkewitz too. I mean, he sang like a canary about what went on in Freiburg.
T-Mobile was not clean after '98.
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Scott SoCal said:
Just reading the translations from in this thread, he says that they stopped teamwide doping after 1998 but realized after a few years that they were at a huge disadvantage. This implies that they started teamwide program again. Ullrich probably started blood boosting in 2003, and the teamwide program began again when he came back in 2004. Ullrich had his best post 1998 performance in 2003. We never got to see what he had after that. In 2004 he was sick during the first half of the race, so Kloden assumed the role of team leader. In 2005 he crashed before the prologue and during the race.
There are some things that do not make sense. In 2006 the T-Mobile that raced the TdF used Freiburg to blood boost, but Ullrich and Sevilla were still using Fuentes.
BroDeal said:
Yeah, I'm questioning Rudy's truth-telling regarding organized doping. Perhaps it's a translation thing but I have to believe the riders were doping after '98 with the team's knowledge. Maybe the organization of the program shifted from team to rider but I have a hard time believing most of those guys were not on the hot sauce during the time frame of '98 thru 2002.
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mr. tibbs said:
This is particularly hypocritical of Bob Stapleton given that his resident team director is (and probably where Bob gets any of his knowledge about cycling from) former T-Mobile domestique Rolf Aldag, confessed EPO doper from 95-99.
I want to like Bob - but he keeps giving me reasons to think he is just like one of those rich America's Cup dudes except instead of buying a 40million dollar racing yacht he bought a bike team.
Polish
BANNED
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Beech Mtn said:
Both Frankie and JV stopped riding with Lance by year 2000.
Floyd said Lance said he stopped using EPO when the test was developed.
2000-2001.
Seriously, I thought Lance was using EPO 1999-2005.
It appears he did not. Thank you Floyd!
But even when I thought Lance was using EPO all that time , I still did not believe EPO "transformed him". Many other attributes made him a 7 Time Winner.
without trying to sound like i'm shooting the messenger, i have to say i hate rudy pevenage. i used pray jan would ditch that little svengali parasite. if anyone destroyed jan's career it was that jack@$$.
everything he says, truthful or not, is always self-serving. i wouldn't be a bit surprised if rudy's little "slip" with using his own phone wasn't "accidentally" on purpose, because jan threatened to ditch him or something. nor would i be at all surprised to learn that pevenage was taking money from lance to undermine jan. that at least would explain why he encouraged jan to work with fuentes and not frieburg, given that fuentes's operaton was clearly substandard (he nearly killed manzano afterall), and that, by helping so many, he had too many conflicts of interest and was way too exposed and easy to bribe. (wow, i sound like a pro-doper but i'm not; i was just a huge fan of jan's and after the fuentes affair came to light i never could understand how a doped jan couldn't beat a doped armstrong--that's like a doped secretariat loosing to a doped claimer--it just doesn't make any sense. i've been puzzled about ever since).
that said, given what pevenage said, and given what kevin livingston reported to vaughters, and that telekom/t-mobile was the "graveyard" of rising stars team from at least 1999 to about 2004, i think it is quite possible that the team stopped doping systematically for a while, and left it to the riders until whenever they started the frieburg program, which wasn't until like 2006 or 2007 IIRC--wasn't it response to the fuentes affair in 2006?
ps: dear mr. polish, my reading of what landis has said about lance and epo wasn't that lance stopped using epo but that he took the epo intravenously so that it was undetectable--but maybe i misunderstood that. but even if he did stop using epo, blood packing is still doping and it is still cheating and it is a very effective method of both. don't forget, that just getting caught with his blood in bag in some fridge in spain was enough to end jan's career.
i can't understand why you seem to think that one form of cheating is more noble than another--a cheat is a cheat is a cheat. you have a funny taste in heroes.
BTW--jan was a gifted cyclist since he was about 10 years old; before 1999, lance armstrong couldn't even finish a tour, and it wasn't epo that won that tour for him, though it probably enabled him to maintain his lead once he got it. it was his d*ck move of taking advantage of a major crash in the first week.
the time he gained by taking off and not waiting for everyone, chief among them alex zulle, was almost exactly his margin of victory. i'll never forget the scene--frankie was screaming at lance to wait because that is "how it is done," and lance was screaming "ride, ride, zulle is down, ride."
everything he says, truthful or not, is always self-serving. i wouldn't be a bit surprised if rudy's little "slip" with using his own phone wasn't "accidentally" on purpose, because jan threatened to ditch him or something. nor would i be at all surprised to learn that pevenage was taking money from lance to undermine jan. that at least would explain why he encouraged jan to work with fuentes and not frieburg, given that fuentes's operaton was clearly substandard (he nearly killed manzano afterall), and that, by helping so many, he had too many conflicts of interest and was way too exposed and easy to bribe. (wow, i sound like a pro-doper but i'm not; i was just a huge fan of jan's and after the fuentes affair came to light i never could understand how a doped jan couldn't beat a doped armstrong--that's like a doped secretariat loosing to a doped claimer--it just doesn't make any sense. i've been puzzled about ever since).
that said, given what pevenage said, and given what kevin livingston reported to vaughters, and that telekom/t-mobile was the "graveyard" of rising stars team from at least 1999 to about 2004, i think it is quite possible that the team stopped doping systematically for a while, and left it to the riders until whenever they started the frieburg program, which wasn't until like 2006 or 2007 IIRC--wasn't it response to the fuentes affair in 2006?
ps: dear mr. polish, my reading of what landis has said about lance and epo wasn't that lance stopped using epo but that he took the epo intravenously so that it was undetectable--but maybe i misunderstood that. but even if he did stop using epo, blood packing is still doping and it is still cheating and it is a very effective method of both. don't forget, that just getting caught with his blood in bag in some fridge in spain was enough to end jan's career.
i can't understand why you seem to think that one form of cheating is more noble than another--a cheat is a cheat is a cheat. you have a funny taste in heroes.
BTW--jan was a gifted cyclist since he was about 10 years old; before 1999, lance armstrong couldn't even finish a tour, and it wasn't epo that won that tour for him, though it probably enabled him to maintain his lead once he got it. it was his d*ck move of taking advantage of a major crash in the first week.
the time he gained by taking off and not waiting for everyone, chief among them alex zulle, was almost exactly his margin of victory. i'll never forget the scene--frankie was screaming at lance to wait because that is "how it is done," and lance was screaming "ride, ride, zulle is down, ride."
spectacle said:
I recall Landis descriptions as you do with micro-dosing EPO as the counter measure to blood doping.
Lance's approach on the stage where Zulle crashed was not sportsmanlike but there were others driving that split as well. I don't know who initiated it but I think all podium finishers were in on it.
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