Philippe Gilbert, Cyclist of the year

[kurtinsc]

Hitch, I guess I understand where you are coming from... but to be honest I subscribe more to the Badger's view. No gifts.

I hate when I see guys gifting a stage.

I don't like giving credit for "what if's" in any sport when talking about a MVP/Best Player/Best Rider. Yes... Contador may have been able to win 8 stages at the Giro... but he actually won 2. He might have been able to win by 12 minutes... but he actually won by 6. He might have been able to win the Tour had he not crashed... but he actually got 5th.

Heck, Gilbert might have been able to win MSR if Scarponi hadn't chased down his late attack. Gilbert may have won more tour stages if he hadn't contested the green jersey. But those things happened.

I'm not a big fan of "what might have been" based on how we think things might have gone if riders had made different choices.

 

[The Hitch]

Eh... the results are the results.

If you choose not to win a stage in order to get help from a rider to boost your GC lead... they won the race. YOu got the time on the GC. You don't get credit for a win if you choose not to win.

Phil chose to chase the Green Jersey... and it cost him opportunities to go after stages later the the tour. That was his choice... I'm not going to give him "bonus wins" because of that decision either.

That’s a little bit disingenuous. Sure you are perfectly within your right to take the view that only wins count but Contador did not give stages away to boost his gc.

Contador has a 4 minute lead on stage 19. Are you seriously suggesting that he gives Tiralongo (who doesnt even take a pull) the stage and Garzelli the green in order to protect his gc?


With Rujano I don’t think Rujano helped Contador much. Contador spent far more time at the front and rode within himself. He could have broken free from Rujano and taken the bonus seconds as well as extra time if he wanted extra time on GC. With Anton and Nieve, again Contador rode within his limit came in quietly in second, where guys like Hinault or Lance would have taken the stage.

To say he gave those stages away for gc and to compare it to Gilbert going for green is unfair. Gilbert could only go for green or stage wins. Gilbert didn’t let Cav get green through the goodness of his heart. Contador, in the cases of Garzelli and Tiralongo did.

 

[ferryman]

Hitch, I guess I understand where you are coming from... but to be honest I subscribe more to the Badger's view. No gifts.

I hate when I see guys gifting a stage.

I don't like giving credit for "what if's" in any sport when talking about a MVP/Best Player/Best Rider. Yes... Contador may have been able to win 8 stages at the Giro... but he actually won 2. He might have been able to win by 12 minutes... but he actually won by 6. He might have been able to win the Tour had he not crashed... but he actually got 5th.

Heck, Gilbert might have been able to win MSR if Scarponi hadn't chased down his late attack. Gilbert may have won more tour stages if he hadn't contested the green jersey. But those things happened.

I'm not a big fan of "what might have been" based on how we think things might have gone if riders had made different choices.

And Cav might win 2+ in the Vuelta and might win the WC road race. And might then have a case for best rider ahead of Gilbert

 

[Echoes]

Fabian Cancellara, without the shadow of a doubt.


Gilbert had a lot of good wins but his wins are based on explosiveness and not endurence. He's incapable of any long solo rides against top competition (see Flanders).

Contador does not have the right to ride, in my opinion. So quick end of discussion.

Manxman? What's that joke! Shouldn't be in contention for anything. Wake me up when he makes a breakaway ride of more than 200m.

Evans is not as consistent throughout the year as used to be.
Same for Andy Schleck.


Of course Spartacus doesn't have the palmares this year but the style in which he rode was so huge. He's ready to pull even if there are hyenas on his wheel, in a way he reminds me of Merckx. And he doesn't peak (unlike some might think).

He's the most powerful guy around. Sven Nys said he was the best cyclist in the World, today (intro of Tour of Flanders).

And Paris-Roubaix > Liège Bastogne. And I'm sure we'll talk about him till the end of the season. Mark my words.

Spartacus all the way.

 

[kurtinsc]

That’s a little bit disingenuous. Sure you are perfectly within your right to take the view that only wins count but Contador did not give stages away to boost his gc.

Contador has a 4 minute lead on stage 19. Are you seriously suggesting that he gives Tiralongo (who doesnt even take a pull) the stage and Garzelli the green in order to protect his gc?


With Rujano I don’t think Rujano helped Contador much. Contador spent far more time at the front and rode within himself. He could have broken free from Rujano and taken the bonus seconds as well as extra time if he wanted extra time on GC. With Anton and Nieve, again Contador rode within his limit came in quietly in second, where guys like Hinault or Lance would have taken the stage.

To say he gave those stages away for gc and to compare it to Gilbert going for green is a cheap shot. Gilbert could only go for green or stage wins. Gilbert didn’t let Cav get green through the goodness of his hear. Contador, in the cases of Garzelli and Tiralongo did.

Regardless of the reason, he didn't win those stages.

What could have happened is irrelevant to me in determining who the best rider was. I wouldn't give Cav credit for Greipel's first Giro win even though he gifted that to him. I didn't give Lance credit for a win when he gifted that Tour stage to Panatani. And no, Contador doesn't get credits for wins he actually didn't get either.

I find that style of racing annoying as well. I can understand it if the other guy is on your team... but aside from that, I want to see people race to win.

 

[kurtinsc]

And Cav might win 2+ in the Vuelta and might win the WC road race. And might then have a case for best rider ahead of Gilbert

Talking about potential future results is different then talking about the past. One is speculation... the other is excuses.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Evans is not as consistent throughout the year as used to be.
Same for Andy Schleck.

Say what? TA, Romandie, DL, Tour win. How is this not consistent?

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch, I guess I understand where you are coming from... but to be honest I subscribe more to the Badger's view. No gifts.

I hate when I see guys gifting a stage.

I don't like giving credit for "what if's" in any sport when talking about a MVP/Best Player/Best Rider. Yes... Contador may have been able to win 8 stages at the Giro... but he actually won 2. He might have been able to win by 12 minutes... but he actually won by 6. He might have been able to win the Tour had he not crashed... but he actually got 5th.

Heck, Gilbert might have been able to win MSR if Scarponi hadn't chased down his late attack. Gilbert may have won more tour stages if he hadn't contested the green jersey. But those things happened.

I'm not a big fan of "what might have been" based on how we think things might have gone if riders had made different choices.

I understand your view but Im not saying “give Contador credit for winning stages he never won”.

Im saying “give Contador credit for giving away stages, or in the case of Rujano and Tiralongo”.

It’s a matter of opinion. For you or the Badger it might mean nothing. For me winning a stage for someone else because you’ve already won 2 yourself and are so far ahead you can take in Milans bar scene on the final time trial and still win, is something equal to if not greater too than winning it for yourself.

Of course if I was playing the “what if” card I would be focusing a lot less on a couple of Giro stages and a lot more on the Granddaddy of them all, from which Contador was eliminated by the Mont Allesouts screwjob, a ttt and an injury.

 

[Gingerale]

as much as i like phillippe gilbert and respect what cadel accomplished have to vote "other" for alberto contador.

winning the giro as he did - majestic.
stage 19 TdF - hero

contador!

 

[El Pistolero]

Its not that I rate stage races higher, Gilberts 2011 palmares on its own beats Contadors no doubt. What i do rate is performance.

I dont think victory is everything, especially in the case of someone like Contador whose won it all anyway.

I think the manner of Contadors victory - and i would be repeating myself obviously with a lot of it, was mind boggling.

Others may disagree but i think if he had the Badgers - no gifts attitude (and i much preffer Contadors let others get their glory one), he could have won the Giro by twice the margin and won 1 out of every 3 stages. He obviously would also have had the KOM.

Then theres his Tour performance. The manner is important to me. The way he attacked on any stage with a hill, cracked Schleck totaly on a little bump in Gap. The way he took risks on descent and got a huge gap on it in Pinerrolo despite being a poor descender. He could have won Alpe d huez stage, by attacking 3k to go. But instead he shook things up with a 100k attack and working all on his own for 60km. Even when it came back together Alpe was still his for the taking but he chose to go Pantani and attack 14 to go.

What prevented him from podium and maybe victory there was of course not his own fault, i choose not to ignore that.

And theres also a point to be made perhaps in challengers. Contadors challengers at the Giro with Nibali, Scarponi, Rujano, Menchov, J Rod, all focused their season around that event and he made them look like Cyclo tourists. At the Tour Evans, Schleck Schleck Samu the same.

Gilberts challengers on the other hand, do they focus themselves around his races like he does? The podium in Liuk was the Schleck brothers who care mostly if not only about July. On Amstel Gold it was Purito (Giro- Vuelta) and Gerrans. The podium in Fleche was Purito wasnt it, and Samu (TDF).

His 2 potentially greatest challengers have been absent from I think every one day race Gilbert has won, 1 through injury and another through you know what.

Thats not to say Gilbert wouldnt have beaten them. In FW and AGR i dont think anyone could be his equal and probably not in LBL too but the fact is they werent there and they are the 2 strongest riders other than himself in Ardennes classics.

Not degrading Gilberts achievments, just brain storming ideas. Of course there are many reasons in Gilberts favour too, imo most importantly the longevity of his streak, but those arguments are being in other posters contributions.

Im arguing the other side.

Seeing as you're talking about Contador's descending. The moto guys at the Tour said they had never seen someone descend as fast as Gilbert on the Aubisque, he was going faster than them and passed them. Plus he also descended away pretty easily at the Tourmalet. Gilbert would have also won 2 more stages if it wasn't for the breakaway.

And you can't call Gilbert's performance at Ardennes weak(especially since Jrod already said he holds LBL higher than his very own Vuelta) and praise Contador's dominating Giro.

And Gilbert still kicked Samu's and the Shcleck bro's **** at the Tour on his finishes, so I doubt it matters that Samu(and the Schlecks) were focusing on the Tour as their main goal and Gilbert the Ardennes. He was still beating them in the Tour(except for one bad day)

1. Gilbert
2. Cuddles
3. Contador

Although I do think Contador's Giro was more impressive than Evans' Tour, but Evans is 34 years old.

Gilbert's uphill acceleration in the Clasica San Sebastian was the second most impressive one I've seen in my entire life.

 

[cineteq]

Fabian Cancellara, without the shadow of a doubt.

A fanboy post

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I find that style of racing annoying as well. I can understand it if the other guy is on your team... but aside from that, I want to see people race to win.

Did Jalabert break your heart when he let Dietz take the win?

 

[El Pistolero]

Fabian Cancellara, without the shadow of a doubt.


Gilbert had a lot of good wins but his wins are based on explosiveness and not endurence. He's incapable of any long solo rides against top competition (see Flanders).

Contador does not have the right to ride, in my opinion. So quick end of discussion.

Manxman? What's that joke! Shouldn't be in contention for anything. Wake me up when he makes a breakaway ride of more than 200m.

Evans is not as consistent throughout the year as used to be.
Same for Andy Schleck.


Of course Spartacus doesn't have the palmares this year but the style in which he rode was so huge. He's ready to pull even if there are hyenas on his wheel, in a way he reminds me of Merckx. And he doesn't peak (unlike some might think).

He's the most powerful guy around. Sven Nys said he was the best cyclist in the World, today (intro of Tour of Flanders).

And Paris-Roubaix > Liège Bastogne. And I'm sure we'll talk about him till the end of the season. Mark my words.

Spartacus all the way.

Cancellara is incapable as well this season No way can you make a case for Cancellara this season.

 

[cineteq]

1. Gilbert
2. Cuddles
3. Contador.

Agree 100% so far this season. Let's see after La vuelta and Worlds.

 

[The Hitch]

And you can't call Gilbert's performance at Ardennes weak(especially since Jrod already said he holds LBL higher than his very own Vuelta) and praise Contador's dominating Giro.

As much as I enjoy your trolling sometimes, please do not twist words and say I said Gilberts performance was weak.

Thank you.

And Gilbert still kicked Samu's and the Shcleck bro's **** at the Tour on his finishes, so I doubt it matters that Samu(and the Schlecks) were focusing on the Tour as their main goal and Gilbert the Ardennes. He was still beating them in the Tour(except for one bad day)

What?

As I recall Samu and Andy crashed on stage 1 so couldn’t really challenge him. One guy who did challenge him there though was Cuddles who was missing at both LBL and FW through injury, and those suit him a lot more than that finish did.

Gilbert did not gain any time on Samu on the other uphill finishes in week 1. In fact Cuddles again (the guy I nominated as the main challenger to Gilbert other than Valverde) beat Gilbert on a Gilbert finish on stage 5 was it. So actually I think the Tour disproves the Gilbert unbeatable idea rather than proves it.

And before you try any “Gilbert was tired” or “so what if Cadel wasn’t there” arguments, YOU are the one that brought the Tour up, not me.

Then on Gap and Pinerrolo which are slightly longer but nothing a Lombardy and FW and San Sebastian winner shouldn’t be able to handle, Contador, Samu Evans dropped Gilbert.

Yeah he kicked their *** at the Tour on his finishes right

I guess well see next year with Valverde back and if Cadel goes for Ardennes, whether they can challenge him. And we get the added bonus of a October master showdown. Would like to see Valverde there but if not I think Samu can take over just like he did in Beijing. Should be fascinating.

Seeing as you're talking about Contador's descending. The moto guys at the Tour said they had never seen someone descend as fast as Gilbert on the Aubisque, he was going faster than them and passed them. Plus he also descended away pretty easily at the Tourmalet. Gilbert would have also won 2 more stages if it wasn't for the breakaway.

Pardon me if I take this with a pinch of salt until you show proof. Not 2 weeks ago you said Contadors Dauphine time up Alpe was faster than Pantanis.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Evans is not as consistent throughout the year as used to be.
Same for Andy Schleck.

Of course Spartacus doesn't have the palmares this year but the style in which he rode was so huge. He's ready to pull even if there are hyenas on his wheel, in a way he reminds me of Merckx. And he doesn't peak (unlike some might think).

He's the most powerful guy around. Sven Nys said he was the best cyclist in the World, today (intro of Tour of Flanders).

And Paris-Roubaix > Liège Bastogne. And I'm sure we'll talk about him till the end of the season. Mark my words.

Spartacus all the way.

Not as consistent? Are you serious?


If I read the poll properly I would of voted Evans for his win at the tour.

 

[El Pistolero]

As much as I enjoy your trolling sometimes, please do not twist words and say I said Gilberts performance was weak.

Thank you.



What?

As I recall Samu and Andy crashed on stage 1 so couldn’t really challenge him. One guy who did challenge him there though was Cuddles who was missing at both LBL and FW through injury, and those suit him a lot more than that finish did.

Gilbert did not gain any time on Samu on the other uphill finishes in week 1. In fact Cuddles again (the guy I nominated as the main challenger to Gilbert other than Valverde) beat Gilbert on a Gilbert finish on stage 5 was it. So actually I think the Tour disproves the Gilbert unbeatable idea rather than proves it.

And before you try any “Gilbert was tired” or “so what if Cadel wasn’t there” arguments, YOU are the one that brought the Tour up, not me.

Then on Gap and Pinerrolo which are slightly longer but nothing a Lombardy and FW and San Sebastian winner shouldn’t be able to handle, Contador, Samu Evans dropped Gilbert.

Yeah he kicked their *** at the Tour on his finishes right

I guess well see next year with Valverde back and if Cadel goes for Ardennes, whether they can challenge him. And we get the added bonus of a October master showdown. Would like to see Valverde there but if not I think Samu can take over just like he did in Beijing. Should be fascinating.



Pardon me if I take this with a pinch of salt until you show proof. Not 2 weeks ago you said Contadors Dauphine time up Alpe was faster than Pantanis.

Watch Superbesse and the stage Lulu won. On Superbesse he gapped everyone with 3 seconds. And what proof? It was on TV his descending!

Gilbert beat Cuddles 3 times this Tour on an uphill finish. Cuddles wouldn't come close to challenging him in a one day race. We all know Gilbert's recuperation isn't the same as GT contenders, but in a one day race not many people can touch him. Certainly not Cuddles.

If you would ask me,Gilbert was one of the most impressive guys at the Tour bar Cadel Evans and Contador on 2 stages.

Ps: Gilbert didn't try anymore at stage 16 and 17 because the breakaway was always going to win and he wasn't allowed in it. He wasn't riding for GC...

 

[ferryman]

Talking about potential future results is different then talking about the past. One is speculation... the other is excuses.

You have to look back to look forward

 

[ferryman]

I understand your view but Im not saying “give Contador credit for winning stages he never won”.

Im saying “give Contador credit for giving away stages, or in the case of Rujano and Tiralongo”.

It’s a matter of opinion. For you or the Badger it might mean nothing. For me winning a stage for someone else because you’ve already won 2 yourself and are so far ahead you can take in Milans bar scene on the final time trial and still win, is something equal to if not greater too than winning it for yourself.

Of course if I was playing the “what if” card I would be focusing a lot less on a couple of Giro stages and a lot more on the Granddaddy of them all, from which Contador was eliminated by the Mont Allesouts screwjob, a ttt and an injury.

I've no doubt Contador soft pedalled behind Anton for his win as well. And I've no problem with that. The Tiralongo win will stay with me for as long as I follow cycling. Get on my wheel AC tells him as he catches him and then paces him to the win. A big thank you from AC and makes Tiro's career. You can't buy class.

 

[marco_corsi]

Yup sorry about that. I did mean "Rider", should have wrote cyclist of the year instead.

 

[marco_corsi]

Contador not mentioned

I love contador, he's a great cyclist, probably the only "TRUE" stage racer in the peloton for the last decade.
I can already hear those wanting to mention Armstrong. Armstrong was a one day classics rider before his cancer. Due to his cancer he became a grand Tour (de france) cyclist.

Contador was not in my poll simply because his case is being appealed. He was cleared, so Contador is a "clean" cyclist... but I can't put him in my poll or even discuss him as cyclist of the year, when all his results could be taken away from him in august.

 

[El Pistolero]

I love contador, he's a great cyclist, probably the only "TRUE" stage racer in the peloton for the last decade.
I can already hear those wanting to mention Armstrong. Armstrong was a one day classics rider before his cancer. Due to his cancer he became a grand Tour (de france) cyclist.

Contador was not in my poll simply because his case is being appealed. He was cleared, so Contador is a "clean" cyclist... but I can't put him in my poll or even discuss him as cyclist of the year, when all his results could be taken away from him in august.

I think they said somewhere that his results will not be taken away. Except for the Tour 2010 ofc.

 

[AussieGoddess]

Seeing as Phil and Contador are my top 2 in terms of favourite riders - its hard for me to pick one

Phil's season has been nothing short of awesome. He is simply amazing.

But Alberto's Giro .... the way he rode the Tour .... also incredible.


I will go with SuperPhil - because he will finish No 1 .... but its a pretty hard call.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

i'd probably add evans also, but he was behind ac and gilbert forsure.

If gilbert wins Lomardia, Eneco and a couple other smaller races he cis hard to look past.

Evans will probably win the official cycling award tho, because you know, winning the tour is criteria for this.

 

[jacko_69]

1st - Gilbert by a fair margin for sure, he's simply owned it for pretty much the whole season, big races and small.
2nd - Evans, he's had the season of his life, he's won most of the races he's entered, he managed to realise a dream that many thought was not possible at the age of 34.
3rd - Contador, awesome in the Giro and showed some amazing fighting spirit at the Tour