Philippe Gilbert, Cyclist of the year

[The Hitch]

For me winning a stage for someone else .... is something equal to if not greater too than winning it for yourself

no it isn't,

Yes it is. Its my own opinion. FOR ME what Contador did is that impressive.

if you want to be called the winner, you have to win,

So Contador isnt a winner???

Im guessing you may have meant something else but when you make that comment while talking about why Contador giving away stage wins shouldnt be greeted with awe, thats the way it comes off.



Also what has this got to do with the discussion anyway.

A lot of people including myself have said that giving stages away is highly admirable and impressive.

That has absolutely nothing to do with saying they actually WON the stage which is what you are suggesting.

Notice the difference. - "Contador won stage 19" vs " Contador was extremely impressive on stage 19".

Please take care to read peoples posts before assuming they said something they didnt.

the reason riders do this is because they think they can make allies this way,

How do you know this? Contador could have made that decision for any number of reasons, it doesnt have to be because he was plotting, hoping for something in return.

In the next bit you use the word "need" reaffirming the idea that any action taken in cycling is done purely for ones own benefit.

Maybe there isnt always a conspiracy where someone tries to get something out of an action.

Maybe sometimes, its just a nice gesture.

BTW Would you say Gilbert pulling Phinney along yesterday was also a selfish action motivated by greed? Going by your principles, I guess you would have to.

Or does the fact that the rider doing something nice was wearing a Belgian champions jersey change your perspective (though pulling someone along and giving them the greatest moment of their career are obviously 2 very different things).

f you're truly confident you're the best there's no need to give anything away like Gilbert this year who has won everything he could win, much more impressive imo

So Contador wasnt "truly confident that he was the best"?

Because when you say that the difference between Gilbert and Contador was confidence that i show your post is going to be interpreted.

Im guessing you meant to say something else because the idea that Contador wasnt the best, or didnt think he was the best, in a race he had wrapped up by the end of the first mountain stage, is difficult to take seriously.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

no it isn't, if you want to be called the winner, you have to win, one reason riders do this is because they think they can make allies this way, if you're truly confident you're the best there's no need to give anything away like Gilbert this year who has won everything he could win, much more impressive imo

Surely if you're truly confident that you're the best, this is MORE reason, not less, that you would give away victories - because you don't feel like you need to prove that you're the best, because you know it. You don't need to constantly win to justify yourself.

See Cavendish trying to give Goss a stage in last year's Vuelta, only for Goss to be too busy celebrating the team win, so Cavendish had to take it himself.

 

[Carols]

I voted other, because had his name been there I would have voted for Alberto Contador


1º Overall Giro de Italia
5º Overall Tour de France
1º Regularidad Giro de Italia
1º Combatividad Giro de Italia
1º Overall Volta Cataluña
1º Overall Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 9 Giro de Italia
1º Stage 3 Vuelta a Cataluña
1º Stage 16 Giro de Italia (T.T)
1º Stage 3 (T.T) Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 2 Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 4 (T.T) Vuelta a Castilla y León


And his Tour impressed me nearly as much as the Giro. When you're on form and Alberto it's easy to dominate. When fatigued and injured few will have the guts and Determination to do what he did.

Phil is wonderful and has had a Brilliant season, deserving every accolade he receives! But winning one days races just isn't in the same league as winning Grand Tours.

Alberto
Cadel
Phil

 

[The Hitch]

Thanks to all those tipping Kittel.

Obviously im a big TDP fan but when I heard the interviewer asking kittel " will you remember the 68th Tour de Pologne for the rest of your life" and he was like "Ja" i laughed thinking it was similar to when bands say theyve never had as great a crowd as the one in front of them today.


He would probably forget it in a week and the commentators were obviously there to promote the race. They later talked about how his 4 stage wins made him one of the best sprinters in the world and again I laughed.

But to see him being named by many on here seriously as one of the great sprinters now, purely after his performance in TDP, suggests it really is coming along as a world Tour race.

Maybe he will remember those 4 stages afterall.

Stage 12 of the '95 Vuelta (you know, the one where JaJa won the GC, points, KOM and Combinada).

238km with a final climb of Sierra Nevada. JaJa is 5 minutes up on GC. It was one of "those" Vuelta stages, long and in baking heat, with few people willing to go in the break because of it being such a thankless task. Dietz had been the only one to go that day, some 200km from the stripe.

He came to the base of the final climb with an advantage of 10'17 over the péloton. With 10km to go, he still had half of that. He had 3'30" with 5km to go. But with 3km to go, he really hit the wall; that's also when the GC action really kicked off. Jalabert attacked with 2km to go, coming through 1'30" behind Dietz. Olano and Pantani pulled him back once, but not the second time. Jalabert ate up the distance between himself and the bonked Dietz, catching him with 150m to go.

Even with Olano charging and tearing up the gap between JaJa and him, Laurent sat up and let Bert Dietz take the win. It was one of the great sporting moments. Of course, you could argue that Jalabert had 5 mins of GC lead, so it didn't really matter too greatly, but I think given everything that he won at that Vuelta, sitting up to let the guy who rode solo for over 200km take the spoils said more for Laurent Jalabert than winning the stage ever could have done.

What a great bedtime story thanks.

I never heard that one before, but my respect for Jallabert goes up big time after reading it.

For me thats the kind of moment that brings the best out of sport.

Not someone breaking a world record. Not spoilt brats getting parades and knighthoods for unworthy contributions. Not nike making a "cool" advert.

This right there. aknowledging a great performance that way. In Jallaberts case doing a favour for attacking cycling.

Full respect for Dietz for attacking 200k out and full respect to Jallabert for the gesture. I certainly wouldnt have heard about it had Jallabert gone for the stage win.

I think I can go to sleep now after reading this story. It will give me sweet dreams.

 

[cineteq]

I voted other, because had his name been there I would have voted for Alberto Contador


1º Overall Giro de Italia
5º Overall Tour de France
1º Regularidad Giro de Italia
1º Combatividad Giro de Italia
1º Overall Volta Cataluña
1º Overall Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 9 Giro de Italia
1º Stage 3 Vuelta a Cataluña
1º Stage 16 Giro de Italia (T.T)
1º Stage 3 (T.T) Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 2 Vuelta Murcia
1º Stage 4 (T.T) Vuelta a Castilla y León


And his Tour impressed me nearly as much as the Giro. When you're on form and Alberto it's easy to dominate. When fatigued and injured few will have the guts and Determination to do what he did.

Phil is wonderful and has had a Brilliant season, deserving every accolade he receives! But winning one days races just isn't in the same league as winning Grand Tours.

Alberto
Cadel
Phil

Carol, Contador did great in the Giro but his competition was not 1s class (overall). So that why Cadel and Phil should be ahead of him. They won more important races than him. It's like 2 + 2 = 4.

 

[greenedge]

I think Cav did well but this year was not maybe that great for him. He seemed to lose a bit too often. However he did achieve his goal of Green Jersey. I agree with " The Hitch " that Contador should be on the list. I would love to be able to say Cadel Evans since he rode a great TDF ( won it/ targeted it ) and raced for some of the year well, but at the bottom of my heart i know Gilbert deserves it for his wins at the Hilly Classics and other races.

Next year i expect Evans to go to the Hilly races and try win them. And i think he can win 1.

 

[The Hitch]

I think Cav did well but this year was not maybe that great for him. He seemed to lose a bit too often. However he did achieve his goal of Green Jersey. I agree with " The Hitch " that Contador should be on the list. I would love to be able to say Cadel Evans since he rode a great TDF ( won it/ targeted it ) and raced for some of the year well, but at the bottom of my heart i know Gilbert deserves it for his wins at the Hilly Classics and other races.

Next year i expect Evans to go to the Hilly races and try win them. And i think he can win 1.

The only reason Evans missed FW and LBL this year was injury. Hell be a year older but i do expect him to be brilliant there again next year and every chance he can win one of those 2.

 

[Mich78BEL]

Yes it is. Its my own opinion. FOR ME what Contador did is that impressive.



So Contador isnt a winner???

Im guessing you may have meant something else but when you make that comment while talking about why Contador giving away stage wins shouldnt be greeted with awe, thats the way it comes off.



Also what has this got to do with the discussion anyway.

A lot of people including myself have said that giving stages away is highly admirable and impressive.

That has absolutely nothing to do with saying they actually WON the stage which is what you are suggesting.

Notice the difference. - "Contador won stage 19" vs " Contador was extremely impressive on stage 19".

Please take care to read peoples posts before assuming they said something they didnt.



How do you know this? Contador could have made that decision for any number of reasons, it doesnt have to be because he was plotting, hoping for something in return.

In the next bit you use the word "need" reaffirming the idea that any action taken in cycling is done purely for ones own benefit.

Maybe there isnt always a conspiracy where someone tries to get something out of an action.

Maybe sometimes, its just a nice gesture.

BTW Would you say Gilbert pulling Phinney along yesterday was also a selfish action motivated by greed? Going by your principles, I guess you would have to.

Or does the fact that the rider doing something nice was wearing a Belgian champions jersey change your perspective (though pulling someone along and giving them the greatest moment of their career are obviously 2 very different things).



So Contador wasnt "truly confident that he was the best"?

Because when you say that the difference between Gilbert and Contador was confidence that i show your post is going to be interpreted.

Im guessing you meant to say something else because the idea that Contador wasnt the best, or didnt think he was the best, in a race he had wrapped up by the end of the first mountain stage, is difficult to take seriously.

ok, maybe Gilbert ain't the best example because he's not a stage racer (Merckx would be a better example as he never gave anything away that mattered to him), also what i ment was if you want to be known as the winner of something (a certain stage in a race, a classic) you can't give it away.

Anyway, Gilbert is the rider of the year and its not even close...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Carol, Contador did great in the Giro but his competition was not 1s class (overall). So that why Cadel and Phil should be ahead of him. They won more important races than him. It's like 2 + 2 = 4.

I dispute the assertion that ANY of Gilbert's wins are in races more important than the GC of the Giro d'Italia.

In his entire career, not just this year.

 

[The Hitch]

ok, maybe Gilbert ain't the best example because he's not a stage racer (Merckx would be a better example as he never gave anything away that mattered to him), also what i ment was if you want to be known as the winner of something (a certain stage in a race, a classic) you can't give it away.

Which is a total non sequitur because no one ever said " Contador won stage 19" did they?

 

[The Hitch]

Carol, Contador did great in the Giro but his competition was not 1s class (overall). So that why Cadel and Phil should be ahead of him. They won more important races than him. It's like 2 + 2 = 4.

WTF are you talking about?

Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive. 6 out of 9 active grand tour winners. All then active Tour de France winners. Menchov and his 3 gt wins. Last years world number 1. The top 3 riders from cq last year actually.

All peaked for the Giro.

Gilbert on the other hand was missing his 2 great rivals in every race he won. The others - schlecks, Purito, Samu were guys adjusting their peaks for other points of the year.

On paper Cadel had a tough challenge but when you take into account the crashes and ttts all Cadel was left with to beat was the Schleck brothers.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

well i think jrod might have miss-peaked that race actually. But I agree, field was good in giro.

 

[Jeanne]

Don't think we needed an extra poll to find out he had an icreadible season?

 

[Carols]

I dispute the assertion that ANY of Gilbert's wins are in races more important than the GC of the Giro d'Italia.

In his entire career, not just this year.

And I Concur wholeheartly!

 

[Carols]

Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive. 6 out of 9 active grand tour winners. All then active Tour de France winners. Menchov and his 3 gt wins. Last years world number 1. The top 3 riders from cq last year actually.

All peaked for the Giro.

QUOTE]


Truly difficult to find a more stacked field then that. And he annihilated them, one and all.

 

[cineteq]

Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive. 6 out of 9 active grand tour winners. All then active Tour de France winners. Menchov and his 3 gt wins. Last years world number 1. The top 3 riders from cq last year actually.

If anything Nibali was the only one worthy from that bunch. What did before does not equate to quality in the present. How can you compare the top TdF riders/contenders with the Giro riders/contenders? Sorry Hitch but you are becoming just another fanboy, in this case Contador's....

 

[Parrulo]

Rider Team Time
1 Ivan Basso (Italy) Pink jersey Liquigas-Doimo 87h 44' 01"
2 David Arroyo (Spain) Caisse d'Epargne + 1' 51"
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo + 2' 37"
4 Michele Scarponi (Italy) Androni Giocattoli + 2' 50"
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) Red jersey BMC Racing Team + 3' 27"

 

[dlwssonic]

Rider Team Time
1 Ivan Basso (Italy) Pink jersey Liquigas-Doimo 87h 44' 01"
2 David Arroyo (Spain) Caisse d'Epargne + 1' 51"
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) Liquigas-Doimo + 2' 37"
4 Michele Scarponi (Italy) Androni Giocattoli + 2' 50"
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) Red jersey BMC Racing Team + 3' 27"

This is so lame get over it, you really think scarponi and nibali could beat evans in this years TDF.

 

[Ragerod]

I think Cav did well but this year was not maybe that great for him. He seemed to lose a bit too often. However he did achieve his goal of Green Jersey. I agree with " The Hitch " that Contador should be on the list. I would love to be able to say Cadel Evans since he rode a great TDF ( won it/ targeted it ) and raced for some of the year well, but at the bottom of my heart i know Gilbert deserves it for his wins at the Hilly Classics and other races.

It's unfair to evaluate Cavendish's year just yet with realistic objectives at the Vuelta and WC. His targets, like last year, are weighted towards the second half of the year. I think he's the only guy now capable of taking the cyclist of the year honours off Gilbert but it'll require becoming World Champion, retaining the Vuelta points classification and 3 or 4 stage wins which is highly unlikely.

 

[Walkman]

WTF are you talking about?

Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive. 6 out of 9 active grand tour winners. All then active Tour de France winners. Menchov and his 3 gt wins. Last years world number 1. The top 3 riders from cq last year actually.

All peaked for the Giro.

Gilbert on the other hand was missing his 2 great rivals in every race he won. The others - schlecks, Purito, Samu were guys adjusting their peaks for other points of the year.

On paper Cadel had a tough challenge but when you take into account the crashes and ttts all Cadel was left with to beat was the Schleck brothers.

This is actually quite misleading.

"All then active Tour de France winners" meaning Sastre who I believe we all can agree, has seen his best days. No disrespect to him, but the guy is getting old and it is pretty obvious.

Menchov nowhere near his 2010 Tour form wich was very obvious during the last ITT. Great rider but with pretty bad form.

Neither J-Rod was remotely close to peaking during the Giro even if he got better as the race went on. Strong in the closing ITT, wich supports this.

Nibali rode solid. Clearly peaked. Though he pretty much won his GT because of Anton crashing out.

Kreuzinger rode strong. Nothing to say, clearly peaked.

Anton just going for stages.

Scarponi very good effort from him, probably as good as it gets.

Di luca and Garzelli, well they might be active GT winners but I wouldn't count them as competition based on what we saw at the Giro.

Rujano, losing 6 minutes early on. Great climbing though.

So saying Cadel only had to beat the Schlecks while claiming that Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive is kind of biased.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So saying Cadel only had to beat the Schlecks while claiming that Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive is kind of biased.

And the startlist of the Tour is extremely impressive, but when you look at who Evans actually had to beat it is less so, given how many people crashed out and/or got injured. Startlists are always stronger on paper than in the race, because there are inevitable failures/crashes/injuries/illnesses/withdrawals.

Contador demolished a very good GT lineup. Evans didn't demolish the opposition, but did still beat, a very good lineup. Neither race had a lineup as strong as, say, the 2010 Tour - but both had very solid lineups.

Most of us would agree that in most situations, a peak form Contador would beat a peak form Evans (the exceptional situation is of course an Ardennes-type finish, where Evans can and does more than hold his own against El Pistolero).

Not that it really matters. We haven't learnt anything new about Evans this year. We already knew he was a gritty cyclist, and we already knew he could win on short, sharp uphill finishes, and we already knew he could win one-week stage races.

 

[theyoungest]

Not that it really matters. We haven't learnt anything new about Evans this year. We already knew he was a gritty cyclist, and we already knew he could win on short, sharp uphill finishes, and we already knew he could win one-week stage races.

What? You forget the most important thing: who of us really believed that he could win a GT, and even the hardest GT of all? I know I didn't.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What? You forget the most important thing: who of us really believed that he could win a GT, and even the hardest GT of all? I know I didn't.

I repeat: we already knew he could win one-week stage races.

 

[The Hitch]

If anything Nibali was the only one worthy from that bunch. What did before does not equate to quality in the present. How can you compare the top TdF riders/contenders with the Giro riders/contenders? Sorry Hitch but you are becoming just another fanboy, in this case Contador's....

I like Contador?

Wow that’s news.

Im a fanboy for most cyclists and im definately a fanboy for Contador after what he did in the Giro and Tour this year. The fact that i am a fan does not mean my points should be dismissed.

Its propostorous to suggest only those who claim neutrality should have their voices heard.

This is the second time youve made the claim that Giro lineup was crap, Tour lineup was great and on neither occasion do you offer any analysis.

You going to back up your statements sometime. Just because you say it doesnt make it so.

And do you not think Scarponi was a major challenger? He did afterall beat Nibali.

Watch him do the same to the Tour lineup next year.

This is actually quite misleading.

"All then active Tour de France winners" meaning Sastre who I believe we all can agree, has seen his best days. No disrespect to him, but the guy is getting old and it is pretty obvious.

Menchov nowhere near his 2010 Tour form wich was very obvious during the last ITT. Great rider but with pretty bad form.

Neither J-Rod was remotely close to peaking during the Giro even if he got better as the race went on. Strong in the closing ITT, wich supports this.

Nibali rode solid. Clearly peaked. Though he pretty much won his GT because of Anton crashing out.

Kreuzinger rode strong. Nothing to say, clearly peaked.

Anton just going for stages.

Scarponi very good effort from him, probably as good as it gets.

Di luca and Garzelli, well they might be active GT winners but I wouldn't count them as competition based on what we saw at the Giro.

Rujano, losing 6 minutes early on. Great climbing though.

So saying Cadel only had to beat the Schlecks while claiming that Contadors competition in Giro was very impressive is kind of biased.

Correct it is misleading. I dont hide that. Of course active gt winners includes people like Garzelli and and Cunego and a year ago Gibo and Lance, and i think most people realize that.

I included it to spice up my argument.

Still the case i was defending was that the Tour lineup wasnt as superior to the Giro one as is claimed. I think if you take out the dramatics and hyperboles your still left with a pretty good case as to why that is so.

With Rujano even if you take back his 5 minutes he was still destroyed by Contador in the mountains like everyone else.

And Rodriguez may look weak in that Giro but if you take away Contador and look at the GC from a Scarponi 1st perspective he looks as good as ever. Menchov doesnt come off that bad anymore either. Especially when one considers that that course was not made for him. Too few tt kms too many 10%+ climbs.

A lot of those guys were made to look bad by Contadors dominance. Gadret may have been a bit of a surprise, even to those of us who always said he was by far the biggest talent on AGR (unlike the 90% that said Roche ), but his performance in that race suggests we should also look at him as a top gt contender. Afterall, who was it that we saw dropping Rujano, Nibali and J Rod on the fiercest stage of them all.

Theres also the point that the power outputs and speeds at the Giro were amazing, i believe i heard the power outputs were greater than at the Tour even though the course was more brutal. That Aprica mountain stage had an average speed of something like 45k an hour did it not? Gardeccia with 6000m of climbing had 30k/h.

Finaly the most important point, since we are comparing Tour to the Giro, is that once you take away those who experienced misfortune, Evans wasnt left with all that much to beat.

Vino, Wiggins, VDB all of Radioshack injured. Samu and COntador eliminated by crashes and ttts. Basso lost 40s in the ttt and was still recovering from injury which messed with his prep. All thats left is Schleck bros, only one of whom has managed a gt podium, and Cunego, who could only manage a 10th in the Giro last year.

I mean Voeckler came 4th for crying out loud. And Voeckler is no Gadret. Not in gts anyway.

 

[Carols]

You forget the most important thing: who of us really believed that he could win a GT, .... I know I didn't.

Not me, I'd given him up as a bridesmaid; Chapeau Cadel!