Pinarello Dogma replicas?

[Damiano Machiavelli]

I didn't read the whole thing over on weight weenies but was the cause of the steerer tube separation something more severe than "I was just riding along"?

Second post in the thread:

the US importers and the mothership in Italy have sent out messages to dealers and customers to steer clear of these things. For good reason....

True story

I had a guy in a few months ago looking at a dogma. Comes back a few days later telling me he ordered one of these things and saved a "boat load of money.'' I tell him it's not the same thing but whatever. He brings it to us and I refuse to build it as it looks like it's made of paper mache (that'll be important is a second). He gets someone else to build it and they warn the guy that it's a little janky. That was a sunday. Monday Gita sends out an email with two pics of these things with forks sheard off at the headtube. Apparently one didn't make it out of the drive way. Our Wednesday night ride went down as usually. Guy takes this thing out to the ride and 10 min in the fork shears off at the headtube and I sh!t you not..... the fork legs were filled with newspaper. Seriously..... newspaper, with chinese writing. swear to god.... blood all over the place and dudes is getting 3 new teeth and two Ti plates put in his face.

Starnut

His followup post:

I wouldn't **** you, you're my favorite turd :lol:

In all seriousness..... it had newspaper in it, sweartagod. When the other guys put it together they had to file and sand down the crown to get the race to fit. I swear the steer tube was made of fiber glass....... or faux carbon or something. Sketch man, sketch. They may have used it as a mold release or as a core but, it was friggin' newspaper.


Starnut

 

[ElChingon]

Pointing out that frame manufacturing is a little bit more complicated than making a cake does not make me a complete Chinese Frame believer.

... but if you want to send me a frame to test I will not turn down the opportunity ...

If you can't interpret a simple analogy then yes you are not a believer but a thread filler. Good luck with that frame you don't believe in but think is good.

 

[ElChingon]

Looks like others are running stories on the same subject:

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/

Very similar to this thread, minus the filler.

How you like the cake analogy in the story

 

[Elagabalus]

Looks like others are running stories on the same subject:

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/

Very similar to this thread, minus the filler.

How you like the cake analogy in the story

Flawed,

but, if you want to talk cakes ...

The key is whether or not one gets a master baker (no pun intended) to bake the cake. The cake can still taste and be different and yet, be really well made. No?

I believe threads like the one Benotti provided offer a way to decide whether or not a bakery employs the services of the aforementioned master baker (again, no pun intended) by sifting through taste tests performed by others and by ascertaining the relative merits of each bakery one can obtain a clearer picture of which bakery to avoid. This is by no means, a complete picture however, and is one of the reasons I will continue to read threads here and elsewhere about the subject and continue to sit on the fence wrt which cake I want to buy.

 

[ElChingon]

Flawed,

but, if you want to talk cakes ...

The key is whether or not one gets a master baker (no pun intended) to bake the cake. The cake can still taste and be different and yet, be really well made. No?

I believe threads like the one Benotti provided offer a way to decide whether or not a bakery employs the services of the aforementioned master baker (again, no pun intended) by sifting through taste tests performed by others and by ascertaining the relative merits of each bakery one can obtain a clearer picture of which bakery to avoid. This is by no means, a complete picture however, and is one of the reasons I will continue to read threads here and elsewhere about the subject and continue to sit on the fence wrt which cake I want to buy.

Well the flaw your are making is thinking a copied recipe is the recipe or even close. In the end even a supposed good clone carbon frame may work out but if it doesn't you're left out on the perpetual plank. Its a crap shoot no matter which one you pick. If enough fail the seller closes his e-bay store and moves on, its not like e-bay is going to find him and sue him for selling shotie frames. If you've read the Benotti thread you know they come and go at the drop of a hat, e-bay stores that were once listed no longer exist, yet they say they sold many frames. Why would they close up if sales were good?

In closing, don't do it Joe!

 

[joe_papp]

In closing, don't do it Joe!

LOL no worries - I wasn't going to do it, but I was curious as to what the deal is/was (there's just something about scoring shady good deals in China that I find dangerously tempting, or at least intriguing - I guess ). Going from a genuine Pinarello Prince to anything other than a genuine Dogma would've been a downgrade as far as I'm concerned!

It's easy to understand how the seller's of the Chinarello's cash-in though...when the genuine article is retailing for thousands and thousands (wtf?!) something coming in at only hundreds and hundreds seems like a bargain, even with the risks (for some at least I guess).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Benotti69]

plenty of chinarello's are the real thing. it is a matter of research.

practically everything is made in china, so it is not difficult to manufacture chinarellos as good as the real ones.

as for stories on t'internet, researching the follow up postings from those praising or dissing them usually leads to somewhere nearer the truth.

the only downside to buying direct from china is warranty but in one case a guy got the wrong size frame and they let him keep it and sent him the correct one.

i wonder how many carbon frames the pros get through in a year? not that we will ever find out.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Yeah, the pics are fake. Try slinging some more B.S.

http://cyclingmagazine.ca/2010/03/sections/gear-reviews/bikesframes/pinarello-dogma-601-di2/

Well, that decal sure was made in Italy. Pinarello, Merckx, DeRosa carbons are molded, frame is made a frame in Asia, no doubt about that. Fine frames, albeit overpriced for what they are but there are no factories in Italy making Pinarello, Merckx, DeRosa, many others, bicycle frames. Some have the main frame molded in Asia, rear triangle also, then 'assembled' in Italy but not like the 'old days'.

 

[User Guide]

not same at all !!!!!!

ok too finally put and end too chinarello question.......
NOT made in same molds........
NOT made of same material......
Firstly a company spends shedloads of money on marketing,sponsorship design etc, the second copies come on market you think pinarello would sit on their hands? the design is pinarellos I.P.
The onda fork copies have been around since they came out, wouldnt take couple of years too have a word with china factory.
As for same material advertisers say is 50hm3k made by toray.
Dogma is made of 60T carbon in a 1k weave hence the name dogma 60.1
its also ONLY made for pinarello as the 60T class fibre is awesomely stiff but too brittle so had to be made with an elastomer so it wouldnt explode when any kind of adverse load is applied.Its also made by Mirsubishi Rayon not Toray.The cost of "special" carbon goes up literally exponentially,Super Mario was quoted as saying the carbon in his bikes (t1000,mj40jb by toray) adds 350 euros per frame over standard 24t carbon (t700,TR50s) I imagine cost of dogmas carbon not dissimilar
Bottomn line is they are criminals making a fast buck,you really think they are putting these things through QC testing too CEN standards???

 

[DirtyWorks]

ok too finally put and end too chinarello question.......
NOT made in same molds........
NOT made of same material......
Firstly a company spends shedloads of money on marketing,sponsorship design etc, the second copies come on market you think pinarello would sit on their hands? the design is pinarellos I.P.
The onda fork copies have been around since they came out, wouldnt take couple of years too have a word with china factory.
As for same material advertisers say is 50hm3k made by toray.
Dogma is made of 60T carbon in a 1k weave hence the name dogma 60.1
its also ONLY made for pinarello as the 60T class fibre is awesomely stiff but too brittle so had to be made with an elastomer so it wouldnt explode when any kind of adverse load is applied.Its also made by Mirsubishi Rayon not Toray.The cost of "special" carbon goes up literally exponentially,Super Mario was quoted as saying the carbon in his bikes (t1000,mj40jb by toray) adds 350 euros per frame over standard 24t carbon (t700,TR50s) I imagine cost of dogmas carbon not dissimilar
Bottomn line is they are criminals making a fast buck,you really think they are putting these things through QC testing too CEN standards???

Lots of swift proclamations that aren't true. As much as you may want to differentiate a Pinarello from a copy, there's not much difference.

1. Some Chinese builders manufacture to CEN standards. They have to if they want to sell to Western brands. The manufacturer takes pride in this sort of thing.

2. The technical differences like carbon material don't matter to those buying a Chinarello. And they really don't matter when the rubber hits the road.

3. China is great at copying. The stuff is not 1-for-1 copy because of the costs of doing so. 80% of spec for a 70% discount is why there's a market for Chinarellos. Slightly different molds and material just don't matter. The price is right.

 

[User Guide]

Lots of swift proclamations that aren't true. As much as you may want to differentiate a Pinarello from a copy, there's not much difference.

Please actually point out a lie

1. Some Chinese builders manufacture to CEN standards. They have to if they want to sell to Western brands. The manufacturer takes pride in this sort of thing.

Correct some factories are excellent(Ive bought as a business from many of them)Except they arent selling too a Western brand.They are selling an illegal copy too end consumers.


2. The technical differences like carbon material don't matter to those buying a Chinarello. And they really don't matter when the rubber hits the road.

Never said it did, I gave no percieved value for money,just stated the facts that they werent the same material and not the same molds.

3. China is great at copying. The stuff is not 1-for-1 copy because of the costs of doing so. 80% of spec for a 70% discount is why there's a market for Chinarellos. Slightly different molds and material just don't matter. The price is right.
Never said price was wrong.see response too point 2

What i posted was entirely factual,please point out my lies before implying such.
I just pointed out they arent the same material, not the same mold and raised the question wether someone making an illegal copy would test too same level as a legit pinarello would be subject(which i think is a fair Q)

Any percieved real, notional, value for money is up too the buyer,but many asked if they were legit just cheap but not through offcial channels and I answered that question.

 

[ElChingon]

What i posted was entirely factual,please point out my lies before implying such.
I just pointed out they arent the same material, not the same mold and raised the question wether someone making an illegal copy would test too same level as a legit pinarello would be subject(which i think is a fair Q)

Any percieved real, notional, value for money is up too the buyer,but many asked if they were legit just cheap but not through offcial channels and I answered that question.

That's one thing that gets me, people keep posting how they are good or quality yet there is never a validating link or info on such companies or webstores that have existed past 6 months to a year.

Yes, there's a few brands selling similar shaped frames with different paint/branded logo's but those are going into their own brand now. Where are these totally fake looking brands, aka the Chinarello's? They are the hear today gone tomorrow E-Bay stores with no reference to who actually makes them.

 

[LugHugger]

That's one thing that gets me, people keep posting how they are good or quality yet there is never a validating link or info on such companies or webstores that have existed past 6 months to a year.

Yes, there's a few brands selling similar shaped frames with different paint/branded logo's but those are going into their own brand now. Where are these totally fake looking brands, aka the Chinarello's? They are the hear today gone tomorrow E-Bay stores with no reference to who actually makes them.

I've been riding Dengfu Bikes FM-015 ISP for the last 4 months. Straight forward build. No manufacturing defects yet. Landed cost for f&f US$510. Fitted with mix of Force/Rival/Ritchey WCS alloy components and 32h hand built wheels weighs just over 16lbs. Deng Fu have been around for a few years now and have a good reputation. See RBR forum for multiple Chinese frame threads. The bike survived 4 day trip to Nord Pas de Calais earlier this month incl Kemmelberg, Arenberg and Carrefour. I've been very impressed. So far, the bike has been excellent vfm.

Having said that, once my steel Enigma is back from refurb, the cheap Chinese carbon will go on the turbo

 

[usedtobefast]

I've been riding Dengfu Bikes FM-015 ISP for the last 4 months. Straight forward build. No manufacturing defects yet. Landed cost for f&f US$510. Fitted with mix of Force/Rival/Ritchey WCS alloy components and 32h hand built wheels weighs just over 16lbs. Deng Fu have been around for a few years now and have a good reputation. See RBR forum for multiple Chinese frame threads. The bike survived 4 day trip to Nord Pas de Calais earlier this month incl Kemmelberg, Arenberg and Carrefour. I've been very impressed. So far, the bike has been excellent vfm.

Having said that, once my steel Enigma is back from refurb, the cheap Chinese carbon will go on the turbo

i been riding my 1988 Tommasini Super Prestige a lot lately.Columbus SLX.
it is such a nice ride.nicer than any of my new bikes. corners on rails.smooth.

 

[LugHugger]

i been riding my 1988 Tommasini Super Prestige a lot lately.Columbus SLX.
it is such a nice ride.nicer than any of my new bikes. corners on rails.smooth.

Exactly The Enigma has Columbus Spirit tubes. Nothing that I've ridden beats it for riding tempo on rough roads.

 

[Benotti69]

That's one thing that gets me, people keep posting how they are good or quality yet there is never a validating link or info on such companies or webstores that have existed past 6 months to a year.

Yes, there's a few brands selling similar shaped frames with different paint/branded logo's but those are going into their own brand now. Where are these totally fake looking brands, aka the Chinarello's? They are the hear today gone tomorrow E-Bay stores with no reference to who actually makes them.

their are at least 5 seperate threads on RBR over a few years and most suppliers are still going.

It is well known that China produces fakes, but it also produces the real thing, and no doubt that these factories make more than one mold of the various frames and operate them from other factories.

 

[ianfra]

Fake Pinarellos and just about every other brand

I live in Chiang Mai and the shops here are full of everything FAKE. You just don't know what's real any more. I have emailed Specialized, Cervelo and others about these fakes but they don't even respond. Now we have Chinese websites openly selling fakes on the internet and two members of my riding group have ordered fake Pinarellos from this online company. Sadly they do not see sense and do not share my morality about this issue. Spin Bike in Chiang Mai sold me a fake Cinelli seatpost, claiming it was 'original'. It broke. I'd like to see some concerted action against these thieves.

 

[simo1733]

I live in Chiang Mai and the shops here are full of everything FAKE. You just don't know what's real any more. I have emailed Specialized, Cervelo and others about these fakes but they don't even respond. Now we have Chinese websites openly selling fakes on the internet and two members of my riding group have ordered fake Pinarellos from this online company. Sadly they do not see sense and do not share my morality about this issue. Spin Bike in Chiang Mai sold me a fake Cinelli seatpost, claiming it was 'original'. It broke. I'd like to see some concerted action against these thieves.

+1 same with fake clothing.Interestingly Assos seem to suffer less from this problem than other brands.Not sure how they manage that.Some of these Chinese websites will tell you that their Pinarello's are real if you ask them.Lieing to secure a sale seems to be perfectly acceptable.
There are some genuine Chinese firms making good quality product without copying anyone.
Broken seatpost isn't funny.How is your *** if you don't mind me asking.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I live in Chiang Mai and the shops here are full of everything FAKE. You just don't know what's real any more. I have emailed Specialized, Cervelo and others about these fakes but they don't even respond. Now we have Chinese websites openly selling fakes on the internet and two members of my riding group have ordered fake Pinarellos from this online company. Sadly they do not see sense and do not share my morality about this issue. Spin Bike in Chiang Mai sold me a fake Cinelli seatpost, claiming it was 'original'. It broke. I'd like to see some concerted action against these thieves.

Do you think there is any 'legal' recourse inside China? Anything to help their economy, the Chinese Government is not interested in pursuing these thieves. Outside of China, they will just ignore it.

I 'try' to vote with my wallet. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

 

[simo1733]

Get your Chinarello Mad-Dog here:
http://www.greatkeenbike.com/main/home/cp_detail.php?id=119&nowmenuid=17&cpath=&catid=0

 

[ElChingon]

Get your Chinarello Mad-Dog here:
http://www.greatkeenbike.com/main/home/cp_detail.php?id=119&nowmenuid=17&cpath=&catid=0

Like unique head tube logo they should flip it upside down for added comedy.

 

[laziali]

+1 same with fake clothing.Interestingly Assos seem to suffer less from this problem than other brands.Not sure how they manage that.Some of these Chinese websites will tell you that their Pinarello's are real if you ask them.Lieing to secure a sale seems to be perfectly acceptable.
There are some genuine Chinese firms making good quality product without copying anyone.
Broken seatpost isn't funny.How is your *** if you don't mind me asking.

Because Assos' use of different materials for different parts of the construction, and special shaping makes it cost-prohibitive to copy (other than to copy the logo - and Assos are scrupulous in keeping logos stealth). Ie you could spot a fake Assos iJ Bonka 6 jacket a mile off