Playing God: Eufemiano Fuentes

[heart_attack_man]

Totally agree.

I am fed up with the repeated "it wasn't illegal in 2006".

The Spanish judiciary has used any excuse to "exonerate" sporting heroes. They are still coming up with excuses today, in spite of passing new laws against doping (ie. Dominguez). Every single sporting hero gets "exonerated".

It's a lack of will, not a lack of laws.

I note that you didn't answer my question regarding doing 39 MPH on 01/05/2013. Were you breaking the law?

 

[heart_attack_man]

We have two issues, the Spanish Govt were so worked up about becoming a centre in Europe to which international Sports stars came to juice up, that, post the Festina Tour in 1998 they did completely naff all to make illegal, practices like Fuentes.

So please do not insult our intelligence, by stating that the Law has been enforced exactly as it was intended to be and there can be no grey areas. If it was all that simple we could have a clerk with a rule book sat on the bench.

Your first point is fair, but how many other countries changed their laws based on Festina? Genuine question as I don't know, but I bet the answer is ******-all. FYI - Ferrari isn't Spanish...

But this is the entire point around law - depending on how the decision is applied, it can very much have unintended negative consequences on future cases that could fall under the same type of case law. Or equally, there may already be a precedent in law. So please do not insult my intelligence by having me assume that you understand Spanish law to such an extent that you understand all previously ruled-upon cases. Intent is very difficult to prove in law. Not impossible at all, but certainly difficult. In fact, I'd suggest that it would likely have been a part of the prosecutions reasoning for moving forward with the charges that they did.

At least I LOL'd at your 'clerk with a rule book' comment. F* me...

 

[The_Captain]

Clearly there is no case for potential cheating athletes to be tried by the courts for their involvement as it wasn't a *criminal* offence back then, however it was still a sporting offence, so the speeding analogy isn't really all that great unless a cyclist was caught going 39mph up the Alpe D'Huez...

The legal issue for the judge to deal with is, as has been said before, a case of data protection and a matter of civil rights as to whether the blood bags can be handed over for analysis by another organisation.

 

[zebedee]

The legal argument here seems to be about striking the correct balance between opposing rights; the rights of dopers and cheats to maintain their privacy and doping secrets against the rights of others who want to compete clean or watch their sport untainted by doping.

The jurisprudence is clearly lacking in this area hence the dopers being afforded all their rights.

 

[heart_attack_man]

Clearly there is no case for potential cheating athletes to be tried by the courts for their involvement as it wasn't a *criminal* offence back then, however it was still a sporting offence, so the speeding analogy isn't really all that great unless a cyclist was caught going 39mph up the Alpe D'Huez...

The legal issue for the judge to deal with is, as has been said before, a case of data protection and a matter of civil rights as to whether the blood bags can be handed over for analysis by another organisation.

Fair point. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the law is the law at any given point in time. Backdating laws or expecting judgements to do that is ridiculous, but clearly not what you're getting at. The law as it was in 2006 was just that - anybody who is inferring that current law be applied to this case is just f****** kidding themselves. Decision to prosecute on other charges is not up to judges to decide.

I would assume that whether blood bags can be handed over to another organisation would also be based on relatively strict interpretation of law also. It is effectively medical data (and not really 'sporting' related - even though we know it is...), so for the sake of effectively opening up a legal loophole for something like that (a sporting infringement), a judgement was probably taken that it would be not prudent to do so.

Once again I reiterate that my stance is that I would very much like to have seen all involved exposed, the 'good' doctor and his associates get a much heavier sentence, and for doping to be eradicated from sport completely. I would also like a solid gold toilet and for rainbows and unicorns to wake me from a peaceful slumber each morning.

I guess my point is, that even though I would like all of the above, I can also possibly see why in law it may not be possible. Judgements are made by exceptionally qualified people utilising many, many years of previously exceptionally qualified people's judgement to assist with guiding current rulings and the future judicial process.

Whilst I understand the 'corruption' view that is bandied about (and it would be fair that this could potentially be applied in this case at some levels - eg. evidence etc.), some of this argument falls down in case law, as there are often many judges on a panel, and many courts of appeal if necessary. Generally it's very difficult to persuade all of these different levels to tow-the-line. However if you influence these decisions at the prosecution level it is much easier (and more likely in this case).

 

[Freddythefrog]

Rapha has some advice for us, so does Nicole

Doping Trial Should Not Penalize Madrid Bid: Blanco
By REUTERS
Published: May 3, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013...s-madrid-puerto.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

Spanish tennis player Rafa Nadal, the world number five, added his voice to the criticism of the verdict on Friday, saying "the only people who benefited were the cheats".

"With something that damages the image of sport so severely, the ones who are affected are us the Spanish athletes and sport in general," he told a promotional event in Madrid.

"I think the best thing that could happen is that we stop talking about the issue."



Meanwhile "The verdict does not help the country's image," secretary of state for sport Miguel Cardenal told As on Friday.

"We will continue to devote all our efforts to find out these names " Mate, you have had 7 years to sort out a bit of legislation to allow the doctor to do just that. It is a bit rich now trying to tell us "all your efforts are being devoted" How about "pull the other one!"

Back in the UK


S.T. @
Right there with you on this @nicolecooke2012 via BBC Sport - Nicole Cooke wants Madrid Olympic bid to be thwarted - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/22392989 …
Expand

M. S. ‏@

Totally agree Nicole Cooke re not voting Madrid as Olympic hosts due 2 attitude to drug cheats. http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/22392989 …

Yes - getting our IOC reps to say "destroying the blood bags = no vote for you guys" sounds about the only thing the wider community can do. Vote is coming up in September.

 

[Taxus4a]

Sometimes I get assamed to be spanish...
I could aseverate there are a lot of good, honest, and valuable people, and a lot of good thinks in this country, but I am not surprised about all of this.

 

[zebedee]

A proper investigation of the Fuentes evidence would throw an enormous amount of light on doping links between one sport and the next. The Spanish intend to throw that opportunity away and by implication their credibility too.

 

[martinvickers]

Sometimes I get assamed to be spanish...
I could aseverate there are a lot of good, honest, and valuable people, and a lot of good thinks in this country, but I am not surprised about all of this.

This is not about the spanish people, there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, people are people - this is about the spanish authorities, and the culture they promote.

I fear the spanish law, as was, will probably save this motley crew, but it's a huge, and avoidable, black eye for spain's image.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

This is not about the spanish people, there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, people are people - this is about the spanish authorities, and the culture they promote.

I fear the spanish law, as was, will probably save this motley crew, but it's a huge, and avoidable, black eye for spain's image.

I agree, I think there's a few bad apples at the top in the UK holding some power but as an Englishman that's not a reflection of all English or British people just the key players and its really over the heads of UK anti doping or the Spanish anti doping federation.

I've not heard anything from John Fahey about this, if **** Pound was still in charge of WADA I bet he'd be all over this.

 

[The Hitch]

, but it's a huge, and avoidable, black eye for spain's image.

No it's not. No one outside of the clinic knows about this. In this country it got a few inches 10 pages from the back in a few newspapers. When Spain in the world cup or euros on the other hand it's the main news story around the world.

 

[Freddythefrog]

No it's not. No one outside of the clinic knows about this. In this country it got a few inches 10 pages from the back in a few newspapers. When Spain in the world cup or euros on the other hand it's the main news story around the world.

You are entirely right - yes - it is big for us but to Joe public it is nothing. I think it is time to get something going that causes the IOC reps Sir Craig Reedie, Sir Philip Craven, & Adam Pengilly, to have to confirm their position. Getting them between a rock and a hard place, so they have to tell the wider public whether they would support the Madrid vote would cause a fair bit of pain to the establishment. That is the only way they will take it seriously. We need their email addresses.

 

[martinvickers]

No it's not. No one outside of the clinic knows about this. In this country it got a few inches 10 pages from the back in a few newspapers. When Spain in the world cup or euros on the other hand it's the main news story around the world.

If Rafa Nadal is having to make clearly fairly uncomfortable quotes on the story, in response to comments from Murray, it's big enough news, Hitch.

And you ought to know by now Newspapers aren't how most people in these islands 'consume' their news...

 

[The Hitch]

No but newspapers are a reflection of what's hot and what's not.

The fact that Nadal got asked a question doesn't make it big. The people that do tennis player press conferences are the most likely people to have heard about this - since they spend their lives listening to sports news. So 1.person asked him, he gave a pathetic answer and there was no kimmage to follow it up.

Anyway is this story bigger than Puerto when it came out all those years ago? Because practically no one heard about that. Even in Spain few people know what it was.

This is the apogee of the story, it's only going to fade, and it's been given little more than lip service.

 

[Franklin]

This is not about the spanish people, there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, people are people - this is about the spanish authorities, and the culture they promote.

I fear the spanish law, as was, will probably save this motley crew, but it's a huge, and avoidable, black eye for spain's image.

You keep on slamming Spanish judicial system for this, but I am ever so curious how you want to solve it without breaking a few laws left and right.

 

[Freddythefrog]

You keep on slamming Spanish judicial system for this, but I am ever so curious how you want to solve it without breaking a few laws left and right.

What cloistered lives some have led. Judges are always right because they are, and more of the same from heart attach man:

Judgements are made by exceptionally qualified people utilising many, many years of previously exceptionally qualified people's judgement to assist with guiding current rulings and the future judicial process.


Sadly, my modest experience of trying to get even the most obvious cases of misconduct of those at a highish level, through systems, where misconduct is completely evident and witnesssed by many, is that those who receive remuneration for being the guardians of the population, suddenly read things that are not there or develop temporary blindness or are simply never in the office. Human nature. Hot potato - see if I can ignore it - I have a whole career of trying to get up this greasy pole left, why mark myself out forever with a burden.

Please, the judge disappeared for 6 weeks holiday because the letter of law was unclear. I have no idea but one would hope that in support of her verdict there is somewhere a "reasoned decision" document laying out the pros and cons and her interpretation. I am not confident that any of us know how the case relating to ownership of the blood bags and their subsequent use relates to legislation and I don't suppose we ever will.

I think the only tangible thing possible is to write to our IOC reps.

 

[Franklin]

I think the only tangible thing possible is to write to our IOC reps.

I actually think the ball is now in the court of the nation judiciary. The UNESCO treaty is a good start and needs to get more teeth. The IOC has no judicial fist, besides, I think this should be put squarely at the feet of the regular judicial machinery.

- Riders doping => WADA, with appeals to CAS
- Criminal facilitaing => regular judicial system with fiscal and penal consequences.

The doping facilitators are untouchable as they operate beside the sport and don't have any ties with the organisation governing it. Hence they need to be prosecuted by the normal machinery.

I think the Italians and Spanish are spot on in not focusing on the riders, but on the facilitators, but they need help from other governments.

Another very good angle would be the medical profesion itself. As long as these "doctors" are alowed to return it's an uphill battle.

 

[Freddythefrog]

I actually think the ball is now in the court of the nation judiciary. The UNESCO treaty is a good start and needs to get more teeth. The IOC has no judicial fist, besides, I think this should be put squarely at the feet of the regular judicial machinery.

- Riders doping => WADA, with appeals to CAS

- Criminal facilitaing => regular judicial system with fiscal and penal consequences.


Another very good angle would be the medical profesion itself. As long as these "doctors" are alowed to return it's an uphill battle.

Agreed. So we need to know - how legislation lines up in various national legal systems in respect of facilitating and can it extend across international boundaries ?

I don't think there will be much will to do anything at the right level, but if the IOC, who have no judicial fist, actually hurt Spain this September, it will then focus a few more politicians' minds on putting legislation into place to deal with the facilitators.

 

[icefire]

Agreed. So we need to know - how legislation lines up in various national legal systems in respect of facilitating and can it extend across international boundaries ?

I don't think there will be much will to do anything at the right level, but if the IOC, who have no judicial fist, actually hurt Spain this September, it will then focus a few more politicians' minds on putting legislation into place to deal with the facilitators.

After having been hurt by politicians and bankers, most people in Spain wouldn't care being hurt by IOC. Actually, many of them would feel they'd been hurt if Madrid wins the bid for the 2020 Olympics.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This is not about the spanish people, there's nothing for them to be ashamed of, people are people - this is about the spanish authorities, and the culture they promote.

I fear the spanish law, as was, will probably save this motley crew, but it's a huge, and avoidable, black eye for spain's image.

True
The authorities they are scared. If it comes out that a lot of their top athletes doped they will still lose. They are between a rock and a hard place. However this came out in 2006. They had enough time to go into it and rectify the situation. They simply mothballed it hoping it would go away. But it won't and since they haven't closed it, it will keep coming back again and again to bite them in the backside. What they needed to do was amputation in order to save the other parts but they don't have the guts to do it.
Sad thing is that a lot of promising innocents are going to suffer.

 

[martinvickers]

You keep on slamming Spanish judicial system for this, but I am ever so curious how you want to solve it without breaking a few laws left and right.

I didn't say judical system, i said authorites - my critique is somewhat broader than this single decision (i'm thinking of king juan carlos, etc). Indeed, without knowing spanish civil law, the basic ECHR principal of non-retrospectivity makes me suspect the lady judge was quite possibly correct. We shall see.

In which case she should have stated that from the start, not left this until the end; but that's an error of tactical judgement, not one of corruption.

As for solutions, there are no 'back-dated' ones, i fear. But going forward, the fact that "these people escaped because IT WASN'T A CRIME AT THE TIME", should be a spur for a campaign internationally to have doping and assisting doping criminalised around the world - starting in Brazil in anticipation of Brazil 2014 and Rio 2016.

Because we can't rewrite the past is no excuse to repeat it. Time we started linking the handing out of olympic games, championships etc to agressive anti doping legislation. And the fall out out from the Puerto debacle is as good a crie de couer as we're going to have.

Hell, these countries have no problems passing the special tax and finance laws required to host the games, passing anti doping laws should and can be just as easy, and just as ubiquitous.

So, wherever you are, start now, lobby your legislators, etc; There's something for Change Cycling Now to do; co-ordinate a grassroots campaign - Doping Out, Now and Evermore - (DONE); Hell, call it the Christopher Bassons Act. And what['s best is, we don't even need the d***ed UCI to do it.

Only ideas, but more useful than whinging. I hope the appeal works; I'm not qualified in spanish law, so who knows, it might. But let's think of ways to be ready if it doesn't.

We can't always ahve vengence, or vindication or justice for the past. Sorry, but it's just the truth, we can't. But the future? That's something still, maybe, within our compass.

 

[martinvickers]

No but newspapers are a reflection of what's hot and what's not.

The fact that Nadal got asked a question doesn't make it big. The people that do tennis player press conferences are the most likely people to have heard about this - since they spend their lives listening to sports news. So 1.person asked him, he gave a pathetic answer and there was no kimmage to follow it up.

Anyway is this story bigger than Puerto when it came out all those years ago? Because practically no one heard about that. Even in Spain few people know what it was.

This is the apogee of the story, it's only going to fade, and it's been given little more than lip service.

He's given an answer, and later released a statement on it. Odd thing to do for a small story. Does he often publish clarifications to minor questions?

It has now been linked by several people to the Madrid 2020 vote. If Madrid lose out in september (and I expect it will, actually), and the hint is made that the fallout from Puerto cost votes, we'll see if this the apogee.

 

[Franklin]

Agreed. So we need to know - how legislation lines up in various national legal systems in respect of facilitating and can it extend across international boundaries ?

I don't think there will be much will to do anything at the right level, but if the IOC, who have no judicial fist, actually hurt Spain this September, it will then focus a few more politicians' minds on putting legislation into place to deal with the facilitators.

Why hurt Spain? Serious, this circlejerk is amazing. Spain is doing the right thing here, it's almost every other country that is burying their head in the sand (Italy and France are also quite far).

Only FGL and me are seemingly able to say out loud that our country, the Netherlands, is among the worst on doping. Everyone else seems to be very happy to blame Spain.

I didn't say judical system, i said authorites - my critique is somewhat broader than this single decision (i'm thinking of king juan carlos, etc). Indeed, without knowing spanish civil law, the basic ECHR principal of non-retrospectivity makes me suspect the lady judge was quite possibly correct. We shall see.

In which case she should have stated that from the start, not left this until the end; but that's an error of tactical judgement, not one of corruption.

Again, why are you so hellbent on Spain? You are shifting towards the authorities, but you forget to mention that not only were it the Spanish authorities breaking up this Doping Circle, they also instituted quite a few changes. Our beloved homecountries (Brittain and the Netherlands) have done absolutely nothing!

If anything Spain should be lauded for at least doing something.

God, I feel for the Spanish. A low national debt, yet being spit on by the North Western Europeans (who have much more debt). Prosecuting a doping ringleader and being spat on by North Western Europeans (who do absolutely zero themseleves to prosecute their rotten apples). It's easy to sit on a high horse.

If anything it's every other country that needs to get their house in order and follow Spain's example.

 

[roundabout]

Let's say I am lost for electrons here.

 

[martinvickers]

Again, why are you so hellbent on Spain? You are shifting towards the authorities, but you forget to mention that not only were it the Spanish authorities breaking up this Doping Circle, they also instituted quite a few changes. Our beloved homecountries (Brittain and the Netherlands) have done absolutely nothing!

Not my home country, Franklin. I'm not British.

And why Spain. Because it's On Topic.

I've discussed other countries elsewhere, including my own, but last I checked, Fuentes was prosecuted in Spain, by the Spanish. And I suppose because I don't remember the dutch queen arguing for a 'go-easy' on radobank/blanco.

God, I feel for the Spanish. A low national debt, yet being spit on by the North Western Europeans (who have much more debt).

Irrelevant, though maybe it gives a clue to motivations. and I'm irish, so don't talk national debt to me...

Prosecuting a doping ringleader and being spat on by North Western Europeans (who do absolutely zero themseleves to prosecute their rotten apples). It's easy to sit on a high horse.

Actually it's really hard. you need a ladder and stuff, and the saddles always too big...

If anything it's every other country that needs to get their house in order and follow Spain's example.

but where would Ireland have a Girona? Can I suggest wicklow, lots of lovely riding hills in wicklow...