Podium behaviour poll

[Zam_Olyas]

if there is one reason in the world to not touch that angelesque asz, is to upload afterwards a terribly bad video like this apologizing, reading from a paper.
same with attacking a guy when his chain pops on top of bales

Sir mix-a-lot will agree with you.

I like big butts and I can not lie You other brothers can't deny

 

[Race Radio]

Sagan apologise

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201101264360053

Holy Hostage video!

 

[hfer07]

if there is one reason in the world to not touch that angelesque asz, is to upload afterwards a terribly bad video like this apologizing, reading from a paper.
same with attacking a guy when his chain pops on top of bales

pfff we know that video only happened because of April fool's day

.......and mostly Cannondale asking him to do so.

 

[Netserk]

Reminds me of Alberto's apologise

Totally unnecessary.

What Would Cipo Do? Apologise? No way!

 

[hrotha]

On the other hand trying to label Sagan as “sexual monster” out of this childish, spontaneous act is getting really ridiculous.

Again, it wasn't exactly spontaneous, considering he had done almost the same thing on the Gent-Wevelgem podium.

 

[DenisMenchov]

I initially thought that gender attitude in Slovakia might be a bit behind Western Europe but looking at several development indicators, the picture is a bit murky.

Rates of female enrolment in primary school are average for Europe, rates of female secondary enrolment are amongst the highest in Europe. Variation on these between countries is pretty low though. When it comes to percentage of women in parliament, however, they fare rather badly. While Slovakia has just 17.4%, most of Western Europe has about 35-40% women in parliament and other than Ireland, all are over 20%.

The last indicator is probably the best with regards to a statistical indicator of cultural attitudes, but is obviously not perfect. In general Eastern Europe is significantly worse than Western Europe.

Either way saying these things often misses the point. If someone is brought up in a sexist culture, it doesn't make their behaviour okay, it just means that the culture is also bad, and that the behaviour is understandable

Google Public Data on %age of parliament female

What does the % of women in the Parliament has to do with how females are treated in a country? I would be okay if my Parliament would be 100% filled with women or men if they are the best people for the job.

 

[hrotha]

What Would Cipo Do? Apologise? No way!

Cipo was an idiot though.

 

[Netserk]

Cipo was an idiot though.

Lets just agree to disagree about that.

 

[ItalianJoe]

Stupid

I love to watch Peter Sagan race. He is aggressive and takes chances. It makes him more like the greats -- Hinault, Kelly, Fignon.

However, he is soooooo immature. In some ways, that will work for him for awhile because the young audience can relate to his antics. However, I do hope that he grows up eventually into a more polished product.

His move was incredibly stupid. Armstrong may have wanted the podium girls. He may even have grabbed a **** or two. But, he sure didn't do it in front of 100 cameras.

 

[Marco Pantani]

Reminds me of Alberto's apologise

Totally unnecessary.

What Would Cipo Do? Apologise? No way!

Unnecessary , what?

He did something very wrong and that apology was badly needed.

 

[Normandy]

The fact that she's being paid to be there makes it all the worse. If it's, say, at a bus-stop or in a shop then she can reasonably turn around and say "Get your hands off me, you ****". In this situation, she's essentially powerless to do anything at all at the time.

I voted option 2. Even though I think it's really not okay to do that, I think it's worth noting that Sagan is relatively young, lives a pretty sheltered lifestyle and has got where he is because of his legs, not his head. The way we talk about him sometimes, it's no wonder the guy acts like he's not in the real world once in a while.

It reminds me of something the often offensive and occasionally incredibly perceptive comic Frankie Boyle said about Cristiano Ronaldo: "Of course he lacks perspective. He's been treated like he's better than everyone else since the age of about 8 simply for having incredibly well-coordinated feet. It's a wonder he hasn't killed someone."

Yes, it's inappropriate, but people are a product of the societies they are in. In Peter Sagan's world he's treated like royalty, he probably has quite a lot of success with women when he's not groping them in public and he also, by winning lots of bike races, ends up spending a lot of time around podium girls who are treated like pieces of meat, not good for anything but looking pretty.

I think that's the real issue that this has raised. Why are we so surprised that, when we maintain a tradition like having podium that looks at those girls as nothing but objects, someone ends up treating them like objects? In my opinion, podium girls don't really belong in the 21st century, and when things like this happen the culture that tolerates them is more to blame than the individual.

Back to the individual in question, it's worth noting that he almost certainly didn't mean any harm. The fact that a guy can do that and think it's harmless fun is, in my view, a problem with society, but Peter Sagan is not to blame for all of society's ills, no matter how silly you think he finish-line celebrations can be.

Totally agree with you. Podium girls have no place in any sport in 2013.

Sagan is probably the most gifted young rider in the peleton and has brought a breath of life to sometimes dull races with his style of racing and victory celebrations over the last year. In addition, there is no denying he is an attractive rider and he has the potential to be a great asset to the sport

However, his age should not be an excuse for his actions. As he is capable of competing at the top of his profession and reaping the financial and publicity rewards, he needs to realise that comes with some responsibility.

I know the term being a role model will be old fashioned to some but his actions will be watched by many. He has gained many young fans over the last year because of his 'fun' personality, but someone in his management needs to take him to one side and advise him what is acceptable and what is not. (This is not only true of Sagan, but some high profile British riders could do with a lesson on what is acceptable or not when they open their mouth.)

At the same time, the UCI and race organisers need to review whether it is still appropriate in 2013 to use podium girls to promote mens road racing.

 

[alitogata]

If it is alright for Sagan to do this to the podium girl due to his age and because it is a harmless joke, then it will be fair enough and alright to do the same thing the podium girls on Cancellara and any other winner on the podium. Would you find it then the same funny?

 

[ToreBear]

Americans/Anglosaxons tend to be more politically correct than those from the European mainland, that's definitely true. Sexist/racist/fascist jokes are more acceptable over here, generally speaking. There's also something in what Bavarianrider says, the further East you go in Europe, the 'worse' it gets, certainly regarding sexism.

The opinion piece by Jane Aubrey certainly takes things way out of proportion, and I have to admit that my first reaction to it was "that's typically Anglosaxon". If you report on such a predominantly European sport, you have to take into account the European way of thinking.

Ehm, Europe is not that other contintent on the other side of the world. The "Anglosaxon" nations are far behind the nordic countries in gender equality for example. And we do regard ourselves as part of Europe unlike what people in the UK seem to do.

 

[Netserk]

Ehm, Europe is not that other contintent on the other side of the world. The "Anglosaxon" nations are far behind the nordic countries in gender equality for example. And we do regard ourselves as part of Europe unlike what people in the UK seem to do.

To be honest there are some differences between the Nordic countries regarding this. Sweden seems to be very political correct, whereas many Danes are more relaxed and liberal. IMO
Especially regarding racism. In Denmark it's normal to joke with both racism and sexism without people getting all worked up about it.

 

[Caruut]

What does the % of women in the Parliament has to do with how females are treated in a country? I would be okay if my Parliament would be 100% filled with women or men if they are the best people for the job.

I would have thought it obvious what it means, but okay.

The percentage of women in parliament reflects strongly on how people perceive women as able to do the best job. Most people who are sexist (and vote in that manner) are not spitefully sexist, that is they do not keep women out of office because they hate women, rather they do it because they feel they are less capable. Frankly, everyone wants the best people for the job, how you decide who is best for the job is the crucial factor.

Now, I don't believe that men and women are born with capabilities that are appreciably different, on average. If a society is electing women as only 17.4% of its MPs, this is indicative to me that there are two potential problems, and most likely a combination of both. In a "purely" equal society with all the social and cultural traditions stripped out, the equal abilities at birth should translate to about 50% women in parliament, three times Slovakia's current rate.

The first of the two potential problems is that women are just as capable, but both male and female voters do not view them as just as capable. In this situation the problem is obvious. If talented women and not recognised as equal to their male peers then the culture society is sexist.

The other problem you have is that the women genuinely aren't as capable, which in my view is a worse scenario. In this situation the real problem must then be that women are not offered the same opportunities as men to gain those capabilities, or for one reason another do not want to be MPs. Either way this indicates that the structures of the society contain a degree of sexism.

 

[Marco Pantani]

To be honest there are some differences between the Nordic countries regarding this. Sweden seems to be very political correct, whereas many Danes are more relaxed and liberal. IMO
Especially regarding racism. In Denmark it's normal to joke with both racism and sexism without people getting all worked up about it.

Yep the Danes seem to be more relaxed about it, I remember that birthday song from Vinterbergs Festen.

 

[richtea]

I am 54,I would like it from peter.

Facebook certainly has its moments.

 

[ToreBear]

I initially thought that gender attitude in Slovakia might be a bit behind Western Europe but looking at several development indicators, the picture is a bit murky.

Rates of female enrolment in primary school are average for Europe, rates of female secondary enrolment are amongst the highest in Europe. Variation on these between countries is pretty low though. When it comes to percentage of women in parliament, however, they fare rather badly. While Slovakia has just 17.4%, most of Western Europe has about 35-40% women in parliament and other than Ireland, all are over 20%.

The last indicator is probably the best with regards to a statistical indicator of cultural attitudes, but is obviously not perfect. In general Eastern Europe is significantly worse than Western Europe.

Either way saying these things often misses the point. If someone is brought up in a sexist culture, it doesn't make their behaviour okay, it just means that the culture is also bad, and that the behaviour is understandable

Google Public Data on %age of parliament female

Thanks, interesting!

I wonder how many of those parliamentarian women are Berlusconis escorts and models, etc. In italy he could get away with that. In fact I got the impression he did not even hide his prefference for good looking parliamenterians.

In what I would term the Western block of Europe, I think Italy is the bad apple. Berlusconi has had a part in this both through his own activities, but also through his television channels and the values they project.

Also France comes to mind, though here I think things are more subtle IMHO.

As for countries in eastern Europe there are of course differences. My thinking is that there is a general development trend were more gender equality equals more develped society. And Eastern Europe has only had 20 years of democracy, so they have more to work on. As a man I don't care that much, I think handling corruption and poverty is more important at the moment.

 

[Eshnar]

Do I have to remind you all that this is the PRR section? No politics, thanks.

 

[jaylew]

Again, it wasn't exactly spontaneous, considering he had done almost the same thing on the Gent-Wevelgem podium.

Do you have a link to a pic or vid?

 

[DenisMenchov]

I would have thought it obvious what it means, but okay.

The percentage of women in parliament reflects strongly on how people perceive women as able to do the best job. Most people who are sexist (and vote in that manner) are not spitefully sexist, that is they do not keep women out of office because they hate women, rather they do it because they feel they are less capable. Frankly, everyone wants the best people for the job, how you decide who is best for the job is the crucial factor.

Now, I don't believe that men and women are born with capabilities that are appreciably different, on average. If a society is electing women as only 17.4% of its MPs, this is indicative to me that there are two potential problems, and most likely a combination of both. In a "purely" equal society with all the social and cultural traditions stripped out, the equal abilities at birth should translate to about 50% women in parliament, three times Slovakia's current rate.

The first of the two potential problems is that women are just as capable, but both male and female voters do not view them as just as capable. In this situation the problem is obvious. If talented women and not recognised as equal to their male peers then the culture society is sexist.

The other problem you have is that the women genuinely aren't as capable, which in my view is a worse scenario. In this situation the real problem must then be that women are not offered the same opportunities as men to gain those capabilities, or for one reason another do not want to be MPs. Either way this indicates that the structures of the society contain a degree of sexism.

Yes, but both men and women have the chance to vote in the Elections, so if we assume that a society has about 50% of both sexes, and it means that women are treating other women in a chauvinist manner?

I'm well aware that Elections are not the same in all countries, but still, if women vote for a men rather then a women that just means he is the better option, no?

 

[hrotha]

Do you have a link to a pic or vid?

Sorry, not Gent-Wevelgem, but Harelbeke:

 

[ToreBear]

To be honest there are some differences between the Nordic countries regarding this. Sweden seems to be very political correct, whereas many Danes are more relaxed and liberal. IMO
Especially regarding racism. In Denmark it's normal to joke with both racism and sexism without people getting all worked up about it.

Thank god there is an ocean between us.

The racism has concerned your neighbors for some time. Without a certain party being in a position to influence things in a negative way anymore, hopefully things might improve given a little time.

And I agree, the Swedes are the most PC. The Stockholmers especially enjoy telling everybody else what is correct.

 

[wannab]

Whether podium girls are sex objects or not is irrelevant.

What matters is that famous sportsmen are often seen as role models. And role models shouldn't be doing this kind of things and claiming that there is nothing wrong with it, which will only encourage other men to do the same.

Oh Please!

Podium girls are exactly used as eye candy, creating this kind of context and being surprised someone harmfully jokes by pinching is NOT irrelevant ..

The role model argument is total BS, athletes don't sign up this! What about their liberties? why should they be seen as a role model anyway, I don't expect this, why do you? It's also funny they're only a role model when they're famous..

When role models as you describe are needed to guide someone's moral landscape I think there's something wrong and ask myself how one could function in today's society.


ps: Sagan apologied for those who recently pinched someone and don't know what do next

 

[Caruut]

Thanks, interesting!

I wonder how many of those parliamentarian women are Berlusconis escorts and models, etc. In italy he could get away with that. In fact I got the impression he did not even hide his prefference for good looking parliamenterians.

In what I would term the Western block of Europe, I think Italy is the bad apple. Berlusconi has had a part in this both through his own activities, but also through his television channels and the values they project.

Also France comes to mind, though here I think things are more subtle IMHO.

The data on female MPs largely reflects your perceptions - Cyprus, Greece, Ireland, Italy and the UK are the worst in Western Europe, followed by France.

As for countries in eastern Europe there are of course differences. My thinking is that there is a general development trend were more gender equality equals more develped society. And Eastern Europe has only had 20 years of democracy, so they have more to work on.

Indeed. The sad irony is that the official communist party line was that men and women were equal. In practice, however, high-ranking employment remained almost exclusively male and social attitudes didn't change. Women had jobs, but were still expected to "run the home"

As a man I don't care that much, I think handling corruption and poverty is more important at the moment.

All are important, and I don't think that dealing with one necessary reduces the ability to deal with the other. In fact, if half the population are restricted from fulfilling their economic potential, then increasing employment opportunities for women might reduce poverty.