Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Salvarani]

No, this is a discussion about Pogi as the GOAT, for which, as has been asserted, being the best GT rider of the generation is a fundamental requisite. In this context, under current standings it very much is Vinge vs Pog.

And Pog is leading that, as I been pointing out, so he is on pace. Done it for +5 years and Vinge only +3.

He is leading now. Things may change. Just going by what is currently is the case though. Other stuff is speculation at best.

You are the one confused.

 

[Extinction]

And Pog is leading that, as I been pointing out, so he is on pace.

And I pointed out that what you claim to be true as based on sheer number of wins and top placings, isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be in the case of these two under right now. In three years or so, things should be clearer.

 

[Salvarani]

And I pointed out that what you claim to be true as based on sheer number of wins and top placings, isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be in the case of these two under right now. In three years or so, things should be clearer.

Either way, it is the decider who may be the greatest GT-rider of their generation. Wins and other great results.

So far, Pog is leading that rank as well. Which is qualifying for your said criteria for being able to claim yourself as the GOAT. Current affairs, he fulfills what you deem he has to do and is well on pace.

Can he continue? Who knows. Only talking about the present.

 

[Extinction]

Either way, it is the decider who may be the greatest GT-rider of their generation. Wins and other great results.

So far, Pog is leading that rank as well. Which is qualifying for your said criteria for being able to claim yourself as the GOAT. Current affairs, he fulfills what you deem he has to do and is well on pace.

Can he continue? Who knows. Only talking about the present.

As far as I'm concerned, until Pogi takes back the Tour crown from Vingegaard it's not at all clear who is on track for best generational GT rider at the moment. And if Vingegaard hadn't fallen at Itzulia, I'd bet on him to win this next Tour, which would complicate matters further for Pogi in this necessary category for any rider to be hailed GOAT. The problem, however, has now shifted to Vingegaard due to his crash: can he continue ( from here on out to become the best generational GT rider)? As he certainly was as much on that trajectory as any claims to Pogi in this regard.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Greatest of a generation is necessary, but not sufficient, for GOAT. I can understand people saying that there is an argument for Pogacar as GOAT, and I see the logic of those that argue that only results can determine such a status. I am confused by those who argue both positions at once.

 

[Salvarani]

As far as I'm concerned, until Pogi takes back the Tour crown from Vingegaard it's not at all clear who is on track for best generational GT rider at the moment. And if Vingegaard hadn't fallen at Itzulia, I'd bet on him to win this next Tour, which would complicate matters further for Pogi in this necessary category for any rider to be hailed GOAT. The problem, however, has now shifted to Vingegaard due to his crash: can he continue ( from here on out to become the best generational GT rider)? As he certainly was as much on that trajectory as any claims to Pogi in this regard.

I am just saying who is in the lead of being the best generational GT rider of this generation! That is Pog, right now. So right now he is indeed qualifying for your criteria that you posed.

As said, by current affairs he is. What happens in the future is anyones guess.

 

[bNator]

I expect one of them (Pog or Vinge) will sooner or later give way in terms of becoming much worse than the other, they won’t be 1st and 2nd forever. And it’s true, if Vinge beats Pog this year again, that won’t look good in Pogs resume. However, it looks like Pog could win the double this year which would again put him in the top spot as far as generational best GT rider is concerned. 4 wins against 2 and one Giro-Tour double.

 

[Extinction]

I am just saying who is in the lead of being the best generational GT rider of this generation! That is Pog, right now. So right now he is indeed qualifying for your criteria that you posed.

As said, by current affairs he is. What happens in the future is anyones guess.

No, when he gets the Tour back from Vingo then he'll be in the lead, not before.

 

[Salvarani]

I expect one of them (Pog or Vinge) will sooner or later give way in terms of becoming much worse than the other, they won’t be 1st and 2nd forever. And it’s true, if Vinge beats Pog this year again, that won’t look good in Pogs resume. However, it looks like Pog could win the double this year which would again put him in the top spot as far as generational best GT rider is concerned. 4 wins against 2 and one Giro-Tour double.

Even if he doesnt win the double this season, he is still ahead by his results for being able to claim the title for best generational GT talent/rider. Right now, that is.

 

[bNator]

Even if he doesnt win the double this season, he is still ahead by his results for being able to claim the title for best generational talent. Right now, that is.

Not if Jonas wins the Tour this year, IMO…

 

[Salvarani]

No, when he gets the Tour back from Vingo then he'll be in the lead, not before.

He is ahead by his results. You cant deny that, even if you are giving it your best shot. Results says otherwise.

Vinge cant claim being the best generational GT rider, right now. Because he beat him twice? Not when one was by the help of Roglic being on the same team and the other one being Pog coming back after an injury, but thats just a side-note anyway.

 

[Salvarani]

Not if Jonas wins the Tour this year, IMO…

Then he would be ahead or at best tied. Since Pog has the same amount of GT-wins and more podiums, if that happens.

I am saying right now Pog is in the lead. RIGHT NOW, for being able to claim that. Things may change as I have said.

 

[Extinction]

Even if he doesnt win the double this season, he is still ahead by his results for being able to claim the title for best generational talent. Right now, that is.

While, yes, numerically Pog is in the lead, and even he and Vingo are tied with 2 Tour wins and 1 second place each. However, this doesn't tell the whole story. In the times they have faced eachother at the Tour, Vingo is 2 wins 1 second place to Pog's 1 win and 2 second places. I think in terms of the specific weight of the GC wins and against whom, as well as because Vingegaard dominated Pog the last two Tours, claiming that Pog is a ahead as the best GT rider of this generation is very much still up for debate.

 

[Extinction]

He is ahead by his results. You cant deny that, even if you are giving it your best shot. Results says otherwise.

Vinge cant claim being the best generational GT rider, right now. Because he beat him twice? Not when one was by the help of Roglic being on the same team and the other one being Pog coming back after an injury, but thats just a side-note anyway.

I've answered this in my previous response to you.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Now this thread has become a Pogacar vs Vingegaard thread to see who is the best GT rider...

 

[TrekCyclist]

Not when one was by the help of Roglic being on the same team

So if Pogi wins TdF this year, it may not count fully because of the help of Adam Yates being on the same team?
Now I am starting to get lost.

 

[Extinction]

Now this thread has become a Pogacar vs Vingegaard thread to see who is the best GT rider...

No, the debate has evolved into concern over anyone who is hailed the GOAT needs to be sine non qua the best GT rider of his generation. So naturally the focus has turned to the Pogi-Vingo rivalry in this regard. It's all interconnected.

 

[Salvarani]

While, yes, numerically Pog is in the lead, and even he and Vingo are tied with 2 Tour wins and 1 second place each. However, in the times they have faced eachother at the Tour, Vingo is 2 wins 1 second place to Pog's 1 win and 2 second places. I think in terms of the specific weight of the GC wins and because Vingegaard dominated Pog the last two Tours, claiming that Pog is a ahead as the best GT rider of this generation is very much still up for debate.

Either way he is in the lead of being able to claim being the best generational GT-rider of his generation, right now. So right now, he is fulfilling your criteria that he would be able to do for having GOAT status.

This other stuff dont really matter. Because you actually have take into context of the last two Tours and why Vingegaard won then. This is when the conversation just gets very subjective though.

So you have to go by results, win and podiums, no matter what to eventually decide this matter. Pog is leading that, right now, so is the best generational GT rider. Will he end up being that? That is still up for debate and only time will tell, but not if he currently is or not. He holds that position, right now.

Because current affairs, which is here and now, he is the best generational GT rider by leading that rank over Vinge with more wins and podiums. It doesnt matter what happened in the last two, you have to take into the last 5 years. Pog is clearly leading this generation. Lets what happens in the next 5, to see if it still holds up.

 

[Salvarani]

So if Pogi wins TdF this year, it may not count fully because of the help of Adam Yates being on the same team?
Now I am starting to get lost.

Yeah, you are missing the point.

It is still wins and other great results that matters to being able to claim being the best/greatest of a generation. Not who may have best in one year. You have to look over 10-year span at least.

 

[Extinction]

Either way he is in the lead of being able to claim being the best generational GT-rider of his generation, right now. So right now, he is fulfilling your criteria that he would be able to do for having GOAT status.

This other stuff dont really matter. Because you actually have take into context of the last two Tours and why Vingegaard won then. This is when the conversation just gets very subjective though.

So you have to go by results, win and podiums, no matter what to eventually decide this matter. Pog is leading that, right now, so is the best generational GT rider. Will he end up being that? That is still up for debate and only time will tell, but not if he currently is or not. He holds that position, right now.

Because current affairs, which is here and now, he is the best generational GT rider by leading that rank over Vinge with more wins and podiums. It doesnt matter what happened in the last two, you have to take into the last 5 years. Pog is clearly leading this generation. Lets what happens in the next 5, to see if it still holds up.

Well if you believe Vingo didn't fully deserve his victories at the last two Tours as you seem to imply, reaching performance levels that Pog simply could not handle, then I have to say I totally disagree with you. And because of this I don't see Pog as ahead of Vinge as the generational GT rider at the moment. That may very well change in the future, but as of right now I've got Jonas slightly ahead.

 

[Salvarani]

Now this thread has become a Pogacar vs Vingegaard thread to see who is the best GT rider...

Someone posed an argument that he would have to be the best generational GT-rider of his generation. Well he currently is, right now.

 

[Salvarani]

Well if you believe Vingo didn't fully deserve his victories at the last two Tours, reaching performance levels that Pog simply could not handle, then I have to say I totally disagree with you. And because of this I don't see Pog as ahead of Vinge as the generational GT rider at the moment. That may very well change in the future, but as of right now I've got Jonas slightly ahead.

I didnt say that.

But you are subjectively discussing the question.

Based on wins and results, Pog is currently ahead. Thats is what matters to determine best/greatest generational GT-talent at the end of day. Not who was strongest in one year out of 10 or something years.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

If Vingegaard reaches 3 TdF wins before Pogačar then he will be ahead, unless Pogačar has won 2 more GT wins than the Dane at that point. I doubt that will be the case though, as Pogi will most likely get his 3rd Tour win this summer and thereby increase his current lead.

 

[Salvarani]

If Vingegaard reaches 3 TdF wins before Pogačar then he will be ahead, unless Pogačar has won 2 more GT wins than the Dane at that point. I doubt that will be the case though, as Pogi will most likely get his 3rd Tour win this summer and thereby increase his current lead.

Precisely.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Precisely.

However it doesn't make much sense to look at their number of podiums, unless they're tied on number of Tour wins/total GT wins, which obviously isn't the case at the moment.

Extinction seems to be looking at it like a current power ranking, and Vingegaard is ahead on such a list right now, since he has beat Pogačar in a GT two times in a row. If Pogačar wins this year's Tour, he will regain the lead, even if Vingegaard finishes a close second or doesn't ride at all.