Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Peyroteo94]

People who thought Bernal would win 5 Tours are dellusional. His win was not convincing and history says pure climbers never excel as GT winners. When Bernal won the Tour, Froome (the top dog) was injured and Roglic raced the Giro. In 2020, he got his ass kicked by Roglic all the time, specially in the Tour.

 

[Salvarani]

It is pretty simple. Vinge was the best GT-rider in 2022-2023, but being the best for two years doesnt mean you can claim being the best generational GT-rider spanning over a decade. More time has to pass.

The facts are, as of now, that he is still behind on wins and results. It is very close but Pog is in the lead, right now, to be best generational GT-rider... which to some he would have to be to claim a GOAT status among other things. '

But... if Vinge goes on to win many more than Pog, Vinge will arguably be the best generational GT-rider. Unless Pog wins many more. Unless someone else pops up.

As things stand today, at this hour, Pog in the lead.

What happens in the next five years will ultimately decide who can claim being the best generational GT-rider out of the two of them, since it seems it will be between the two of them.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

People who thought Bernal would win 5 Tours are dellusional. His win was not convincing and history says pure climbers never excel as GT winners. When Bernal won the Tour, Froome (the top dog) was injured and Roglic raced the Giro. In 2020, he got his ass kicked by Roglic all the time, specially in the Tour.

Were there many people who thought so? I only mentioned him because he won at a very young age, not to compare him to Vingegaard or Pogacar.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Froome starting earlier at the highest level and without Wiggins (and the team blokking Froome), Froome would have won more Tour's and GT's. I will remark a lot of people predicted Bernal winning five or more Tour's, even in row. Later they did the same with Pogacar. We all know how it went. Bernal will not win several Tour's, probably not even a second. I'm not sure Poga will win more than one or two extra Tour's. Not only because of Vingegaard, but also because of the talented younger generation. Those youngsters are always stronger than the previous generations, taking in considaration the actual topriders becoming older.

@Rechtschreibfehler

 

[Salvarani]

Were there many people who thought so? I only mentioned him because he won at a very young age, not to compare him to Vingegaard or Pogacar.

I think a lot of people thought Bernal would also get even better. While a lot of the old guard had retired or was about to retire or injured (Froome).

 

[Extinction]

When it comes to Pogacar vs. Vingegaard in GTs than it's clear that Pogacar is ahead on results and Vingegaard on magnitude of the wins, simply by handily beatiing Pogacar twice.

Yet Pogacar is 25 and Vingegaar also only 27. Even though Pogacar and Bernal have been extremely young winners and there are more and more very successful young rider, the fact remains that cycling is a sport where you are expected to reach your prime in latter half of your carrer rather than in the first. Hence the young riders classification is a U25 classification (even though it should probably lowered to 23, looking at the developement atm). So Pogacar on classical terms has his first year as a senior rider, the year in Vingegaards carreer in which he won his first Tour.
There are yet many years to come for both of them, and it's unclear if we've seen any one of them in their peak so far.

To me it seems Pogacar is stronger than he was last year overall, that might be an optical illusion, but it's really not impossible given his age. So it's imo possible a specifically prepared and fully fit Pogacar can actually beat Vingegaard head to head. But it remains to be seen. There are years ahead of us to have this debate if things go well.

To the first bolded, this is precisely why I said who is in the lead now is not entirely clear, it's nebulous, contrary to the Salvarini's absolute opinion. Based on the last two Tours and the magnitude of Vingo's performance levels, at the moment he for me has the advantage. However, as per the second bolded, this doesn't mean Pogacar on a higher level can beat him in a head to head confrontation and regain his throne. This year he seems to have reached such a level, but with Jonas' terrible crash we may have to wait for next year to see that epic battle.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog is in the lead based on wins and results, for a generational conversation right now, since that is ultimately the only way to determine in the end who was the best in regards to that. Not who may have had a higher peak, since for a generational conversation you have to have more wins and done it consistently rather than a high peak during a couple of years. We dont know how it will look like in the next five years yet.

During the span over a generation there are gonna be years when someone was better than the other. Naturally.

But as been said, you need more time to ultimately decide this matter but that doesnt change that Pog is in the lead for that conversation today... despite Vinge having been the better GT-rider in 2022-2023. He is not in the lead, simply because of that. If you think he is, then that is a subjective opinion. He could be soon though, undeniably, if he keeps winning and Pog dont.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar - 2 Tours and 1 Giro
Vingegaard - 2 Tours
So Pogi is in the lead, this is what counts. Maybe Vingegaard can surpass Pogi but until this moment, Pogi has the better palmares so he is the best GT rider. I think this can change of course but Vingegaard must return to his best level and this Tour will give us some informations about that.

 

[shadowrider]

One has to consider number of prime years as well. Even legends of the sport usually had max. 8-9 prime years. Pogacar entered his prime at the age of 21/22 (now it's 5th season of his prime) so it's not a given that he'll be on top of his game at the age of 30.

Exactly. As most of the actual and future riders, having started as a pro at the age of 19 or 20.

 

[shadowrider]

@Rechtschreibfehler

So what ? English is not my mothertongue. Not even my second language. Not being a polyglot, I'm able to write and discuss in 5 languages. And you ?

 

[Peyroteo94]

So what ? English is not my mothertongue. Not even my second language. Not being a polyglot, I'm able to write and discuss in 5 languages. And you ?

Not mine either. But why are you upset?

 

[TrekCyclist]

Pogi has the better palmares so he is the best GT rider

I dont buy that. Froome, for example, has on paper the better GT palmares than Pantani or LeMond. But I dont have to think hard, to decide that for me Pantani and LeMond were better GT riderers (by far, actually).

 

[tobydawq]

I dont buy that. Froome, for example, has on paper the better GT palmares than Pantani or LeMond. But I dont have to think hard, to decide that for me Pantani and LeMond were better GT riderers (by far, actually).

Pantani a better Grand Tour rider than Froome? Lol.

 

[Blanco]

Froome had 0 GT's at 25 years old. Pogacar is on his way to have a better GT palmares than Froome in his entire career before he turns 29 years old (Froome won his first GT in 2013 at 28 years old. I know he was gifted the 2011 Vuelta 10 years later).
Roglic GT palmares is worse than Pogacar and Vingegaard even if he has more GT wins.

So you have a cristal ball? Good to know...
You totally missed the point btw...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

My prediction: 7 GTs and 12 monuments for Pog, placing him in the 2nd place of most accomplished riders of all time.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

So what ? English is not my mothertongue. Not even my second language. Not being a polyglot, I'm able to write and discuss in 5 languages. And you ?

This puzzles me a bit, did you take my user name to be a criticism of your English?

Otherwise I am pretty sure the only intention was to point me to the fact, that you mentioned a lot of people thinking this, while I was wondering if that had been the case. So nothing against your posting or your language skills whatsoever in Peyroteo94s post, I think.

 

[shadowrider]

This puzzles me a bit, did you take my user name to be a criticism of your English?

Otherwise I am pretty sure the only intention was to point me to the fact, that you mentioned a lot of people thinking this, while I was wondering if that had been the case. So nothing against your posting or your language skills whatsoever in Peyroteo94s post, I think.

 

[Red Rick]

Pantani a better Grand Tour rider than Froome? Lol.

I mean the smartest thing to do for your reputation as a pro athlete is to die in your mid 30s of a drug overdose.

 

[shadowrider]

I mean the smartest thing to do for your reputation as a pro athlete is to die in your mid 30s of a drug overdose.

He should have done when he was still competitive. Not as a junky. The same with Frank Vandenbroucke.

 

[Salvarani]

Yeah, I think we can lock the thread on that note.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This puzzles me a bit, did you take my user name to be a criticism of your English?

Otherwise I am pretty sure the only intention was to point me to the fact, that you mentioned a lot of people thinking this, while I was wondering if that had been the case. So nothing against your posting or your language skills whatsoever in Peyroteo94s post, I think.

TY.

 

[Berniece]

So he isn’t the best GT rider, not the best 1-day racer, but somehow he’s the GOAT.

 

[Salvarani]

It is obvious he is the GOAT, duh.

 

[Froome]

So he isn’t the best GT rider, not the best 1-day racer, but somehow he’s the GOAT.

I think they know very well he is not the GOAT and will never be, but when we talk about our favourite rider or favourite team, we like to say that he/she is the best, sometimes we start to be to emotional, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Wel all have a bit of fanboysm inside of us.

 

[Peyroteo94]

So he isn’t the best GT rider, not the best 1-day racer, but somehow he’s the GOAT.

Yes, he is. By far to be honest. And yes, I didn't forget Mathieu. I am a huge fan of him but he should thank god, Pogi is a GT rider as well and it is there where he focus (mainly) his season.