Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Extinction]

Without arguing with the content of your statements itself, I'd like to point to their inherent contradiction.
You can't claim only stats are relevant and in the next post dismiss the only officially agreed stats on cyclist rankings.
You can say these are the wrong stats, but then we lose objective grounds for comparison and we're back to the point where you claimed only stats are relevant, because we can't compare cyclist with other (subjective?) measures.

Now if we go into the content... There were some multi (more than 2) tour winners in the last decades. For none of them has there ever been a debate (even thoughts of comparisons were shunned upon) how do they rank compared to Mercx, then Pogačar arrived and put the debate on the table, where we are now.
This goes to indicate, that tour wins are not be-all end-all in this discussions. There are numerous other things, for example like the nationality... if Remco was from Slovenia, his thread name would never mention Mercx (even as a joke)... We have cycling legends from Italian history that never even started the tour, etc...
So what actually matters with regards to how something is written in history (that then still has a life of its own) is how people at the time (subjectively) perceive it, and there are quite some people who see Pogačar as a possible challenger to the goat status when all is said and done.
Maybe instead of trying to prove them wrong with some (quasi - by your subjective measures selected) objective stats, you should try to consider why do they think this way. When you will understand their point of view and still be sure they are wrong, you will at least have much better understanding of how (many) people think (in a more general sense than just cycling-goat debates).

The only stat when talking in terms of the GOAT, which cannot be ignored, is winning the Tour multiple times. If he can't beat Jonas at the Tour, no matter what his other feats may have been, then the GOAT he is not. There is one superior.

 

[Extinction]

Of course he is not. This argument has been debunked ad nauseam.

Debunked only in your head. If he cannot beat Jonas at the Tour, then simple the GOAT he is not, there is one superior. You can't ignore the overbearing significance of the Tour, when talking in terms of the best of a generation, let alone the GOAT. The GOAT simply must have a heftly palmares IN ADDITION to multiple Tours.

 

[Extinction]

This is a lazy argument. Vingegaard probably not being in shape, if god forbid anything happens to Pog during the Tour, will we have a new number one rider of the current crop? And since one might be tempted to make an exemption to your rule due to circumstances for this particular case - anything can be a circumstance, including winning a bunch of classics (and breaking your wrist while doing it).

I repeat, you can't talk in terms of the best in a gerneration, let alone the GOAT, if he doesn't own the Tour. Pog simple got dethroned the last two years, even he has said so. The GOAT needs a hefty palmares IN ADDITION to multiple Tours.

 

[Extinction]

Oscar Pereiro

He didn't win that Tour though.

 

[Extinction]

No way bro , tadej is the best u know it

He's got potention, but he was owned by Jonas the last two years at the biggest stage of cycling. So, no.

 

[Extinction]

Was Cadel Evans the number one in cycling in 2011 or was Gilbert better?

Cadel. You can't compare the two. Gilbert would agree.

 

[AmRacer]

The only stat when talking in terms of the GOAT, which cannot be ignored, is winning the Tour multiple times. If he can't beat Jonas at the Tour, no matter what his other feats may have been, then the GOAT he is not. There is one superior.

GOAT is not only about the Tour, but also winning big one day races. Which not all GT GOAT's can do.

 

[vwpe]

And saying that Vingegaard is the best cyclist currently is just absurd. The following shows who is the number 1 (hint: its not Vingegaard).

I think a handful vingegaard fans seems obsessed with pogacar.

Vingegaard is not even nr 2 in the world, someone would even say not nr 1 on his own team even and that Van Aert even is a bigger star and greater cyclist im not sure myself about that but some people say that even .

Vinegaard beating pogacar when he was injured as great as that was he not in the same division as pogacar I dont know how you even expect to be taken serious when saying such silly thing.

Ive been on phone with him 3 times last month only so i think i have far more reasons to be biased, trained with him several times too but its just not close to reality. He is great tho easily top 5 in this competetive era. But Pogacar is many leagues above everyone else thats just common sense. Sorry if this is the banter part of the forum i dont understand the sarcasm and that was all it was and me not getting the memo hehe.

 

[bNator]

I repeat, you can't talk in terms of the best in a gerneration, let alone the GOAT, if he doesn't own the Tour. Pog simple got dethroned the last two years, even he has said so. The GOAT needs a hefty palmares IN ADDITION to multiple Tours.

I was replying strictly to your statement: "The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.". I'm not in this GOAT debate...

 

[vwpe]

He is on track to be considered among greats of this sport. I hope that he will have long and injury free career as he is exciting rider to watch (at least in my books).

I would just wait with GOAT debates until all is said and done any simply enjoy each of his performances. There will be enough time to discuss where he ranks with all time greats once he finishes his career.

Yes that much is clear from me beeing around SD all the time and the cyclist its hard not to grasp the dimensions of it.

 

[Cookster15]

Different sport. So comparisons are moot. And I'm aware of the evolution, but until Tadej beats top Vingegaard at the Tour he is still second best today. The past is history and, like it or not, Merckx owns it. You'd have to time warp Pogacar to the late 60s early 70s to know and, vice versa, Merckx to the 2020s, but this is impossible, so only the stats are relevant.

Its way too premature to be calling Pogacar the GOAT but I read this comment and I assumed you were comparing Pog with Merckx in which case I would agree he is second best. But I see you have since clarified that you mean Pog is #2 compared to Vingegaard. That is a matter of your opinion which I simply cannot agree with. I doubt any poll would back up your opinion either. Just because a few here agree with you does not make it objectively true.

There was a label given to posters here years ago "July fans". July fans would agree Vingo beats Pog, but IMO Vingegaard's repertoire is quite limited compared to Pogacar. It just happens Vingo's strengths suit grand tour racing. But I doubt Vingo would ever beat Pogacar in a major one day race and I suspect Pogacar will level the record in TdF in the years ahead. Pogacar just extended his palmarès with the most dominant Giro win in memory.

But it looks like we will have to wait until 2025 for a proper rematch as Pog rode the Giro in attempting the double and it seems we won't see "top Vingegaard" in July this year.

 

[Cassirer]

I think for the general cycling fan outside vinge/pogi-camps two things seem pretty obvious:
-Pog is the best overall road racer there is
-Vinges claim to be the best GT racer is stronger than pogis

And I would agree with @Extinction that the last point makes the goat-claims (in the literal sense, not as a "wow, well done"-like-exclamation) seem over the top (for now).

 

[Elos Anjos]

Debunked only in your head. If he cannot beat Jonas at the Tour, then simple the GOAT he is not, there is one superior. You can't ignore the overbearing significance of the Tour, when talking in terms of the best of a generation, let alone the GOAT. The GOAT simply must have a heftly palmares IN ADDITION to multiple Tours.

I believe you are trolling.
If you are not, you're not making any sense either.

Of course he is not. This argument has been debunked ad nauseam.

I was not referring to Pogacar. You did.

Your statement was:

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

I was addressing the absurdity of the Tour winner being automatically granted #1 status. Which applies to any one who wins it. That was debunked ad nauseam.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The only stat when talking in terms of the GOAT, which cannot be ignored, is winning the Tour multiple times. If he can't beat Jonas at the Tour, no matter what his other feats may have been, then the GOAT he is not. There is one superior.

Spot on. I say is the GOAT because I think he will win a lot more GT's (including the Tour) and monuments. He has enough charisma and talent to be the GOAT however if he only wins 2 Tours during his career, he can't be in the same league of Hinault, Merckx, etc.

 

[Extinction]

Spot on. I say is the GOAT because I think he will win a lot more GT's (including the Tour) and monuments. He has enough charisma and talent to be the GOAT however if he only wins 2 Tours during his career, he can't be in the same league of Hinault, Merckx, etc.

There is no doubt he is one of the greats, but he was soundly defeated at the Tour two years in a row. So until he starts crushing or at least defeating Jonas at the Tour again, he can't be the GOAT. Being beaten on the biggest stage of cycling is too glaring to overlook in this regard.

 

[Elos Anjos]

There is no doubt he is one of the greats, but he was soundly defeated at the Tour two years in a row. So until he starts crushing or at least defeating Jonas at the Tour again, he can't be the GOAT. Being beaten on the biggest stage of cycling is to glarring to overlook in this regard.

Yes, soundly defeated while recovering from a wrist injury. Let's be more precise while writing, shall we?

 

[Extinction]

I believe you are trolling.
If you are not, you're not making any sense either.

I was not referring to Pogacar. You did.

Your statement was:


I was addressing the absurdity of the Tour winner being automatically granted #1 status. Which applies to any one who wins it. That was debunked ad nauseam.

Oh, I agree, so I'm not trolling, but for me you can't be the GOAT and have someone ruling you at the Tour. Pogacar may yet turn the tables on Jonas, but Vingegaard has dominated him the last two French Julys. That's too significant. It shows at peak Jonas seems to have a bigger engine, for no bigger engine is required during the season than that which wins the Tour. This is physiology, which I rate paramount to estimating one's capacity in the sport. I say the Tadej of the Giro, who can raise his level and do it again at the Tour, will start me believing he may be the GOAT. But I'm gonna see what happens next, because if Vingegaard continues to beat him soundly at the Tour, then he isn't the GOAT.

 

[Extinction]

Yes, soundly defeated while recovering from a wrist injury. Let's be more precise while writing, shall we?

He didn't have a wrist injury in 2022. He'll have time to demonstrate otherwise, if he is able. Then I'll start to believe.

 

[Jack_89]

For me it is out of the question to say that Pogacar is among the greatest. When you win on every terrain in every type of race, what do you have to prove most? Even if he doesn't win 5 tours, why should you if at the end of your career you also won everything else? Cycling, like every other sport, changes over time, it does not remain constant like a mathematical law according to which 2+2=4 both in 1924 and in 2024. There are too many distinctions that can be made. One above all, for example, is that the competition is much higher today than it was 30 40 50 years ago because there are many more people who approach, practice and can emerge as talents in cycling. Was it the same 40 years ago?

 

[Extinction]

I

For me it is out of the question to say that Pogacar is among the greatest. When you win on every terrain in every type of race, what do you have to prove most? Even if he doesn't win 5 tours, why should you if at the end of your career you also won everything else? Cycling, like every other sport, changes over time, it does not remain constant like a mathematical law according to which 2+2=4 both in 1924 and in 2024. There are too many distinctions that can be made. One above all, for example, is that the competition is much higher today than it was 30 40 50 years ago because there are many more people who approach, practice and can emerge as talents in cycling. Was it the same 40 years ago?

I don't doubt this. Of course it's not a mathematical formula or else there'd be nothing to debate. And before 2022 I too was considering Tadej as perhaps on the way to becoming the GOAT. But then Jonas came along and, on the biggest stage of cycling, dominated him two years in a row. So unless Tadej turns this around (let's say hypothetically Vingegaard continues to soundly defeat him at the Tour), then he can't be the GOAT. If he does start to beat Jonas in July, with all the rest, then I would have no qualms about acknowledging his Goathood. But it's too early to tell.

 

[Extinction]

He didn't but you said two years in a row soundly, so the flaw is on you.

How so? I seem to recall Jonas destroyed Tadej on the Granon, thus he was soundly defeated as I said. Only last year's TT/Loze combo was sounder. When something gets repeated it's more likely the pattern is physiological and not poor Teddy was ganged-up on or broke his wrist a couple of months ago.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I already said this one time. Pogacar needs 4 Tour, 3 Giros and 3 Vueltas to be alongside Merckx. This year he can take a huge step by winning Giro-Tour and he is the massive favourite, in fact bookies are giving him the lowest odd I ever seen for a Tour's contender.

 

[Extinction]

I already said this one time. Pogacar needs 4 Tour, 3 Giros and 3 Vueltas to be alongside Merckx. This year he can take a huge step by winning Giro-Tour and he is the massive favourite, in fact bookies are giving him the lowest odd I ever seen for a Tour's contender.

That right there is a massive agenda. But, yes, this is the type of palmares necessary for Goathood. Although I'd add a couple of Worlds, a Roubaix and MSR, all of which should be within him. It amuses me that folks are jumping to wild conclusions, without thinking about what's actually required. The next 5 years will be crucial.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I already said this one time. Pogacar needs 4 Tour, 3 Giros and 3 Vueltas to be alongside Merckx. This year he can take a huge step by winning Giro-Tour and he is the massive favourite, in fact bookies are giving him the lowest odd I ever seen for a Tour's contender.

I think winning five Tours, one Giro, one Vuelta, one MSR, one PR and becoming world champion will be sufficient.

 

[Extinction]

I think winning five Tours, one Giro, one Vuelta, one MSR, one PR and becoming world champion will be sufficient.

I'd only specify a Giro-Tour double and preferably two. I mean he's competing with Merckx and Hinault. While I can't expect 7 MSR (here is where the 2+2=4 isn't the same today as in the 70s), but at least a double is required. Maybe he clicks that one off this year.