Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Samu Cuenca]

I'd only specify a Giro-Tour double and preferably two. I mean he's competing with Merckx and Hinault. While I can't expect 7 MSR (here is where the 2+2=4 isn't the same today as in the 70s), but at least a double is required. Maybe he clicks that one off this year.

I don't see the Giro-Tour double as a requirement. Sure, it's a very nice thing to have, but it can be equalled through performances in other races.

 

[Extinction]

I don't see the Giro-Tour double as a requirement. Sure, it's a very nice thing to have, but it can be equalled through performances in other races.

I don't agree. The Giro-Tour double is the ultimate feat in a single year. Better yet Giro-Tour-Worlds. I think it's required for Goathood, but that doesn't mean those that have, like Pantani and Roche, are GOATs. But there are minimum requisites.

 

[bNator]

There is absolutely no way to objectively define criteria for goathood as it goes far beyond just palamres. It's the story, the legend, personality, panache...

There is not even minimum required palmares. Let me give you an example: Who is the GOAT in F1? Many (not me) would argue Senna. And his palmares are not that outstanding - there are many drivers with better palmares, some of them not even remotely considered to be goats... He was even beaten by Prost in equal machinery to get the title in 1989. So why is he considered GOAT by many and Prost by none?

It's about the effect you have on the sport and the legacy you create. So please, come to your senses and stop trying to define some sort of criteria by which Pog will categorise to be goat. He either will or he won't.

 

[Berniece]

I already said this one time. Pogacar needs 4 Tour, 3 Giros and 3 Vueltas to be alongside Merckx. This year he can take a huge step by winning Giro-Tour and he is the massive favourite, in fact bookies are giving him the lowest odd I ever seen for a Tour's contender.

A couple more monuments, world championships and victories in general too

 

[Extinction]

I don't agree. The Giro-Tour double is the ultimate feat in a single year. Better yet Giro-Tour-Worlds. I think it's required for Goathood, but that doesn't mean those that have, like Pantani and Roche, are GOATs. But there are minimum requisites.

There is absolutely no way to objectively define criteria for goathood as it goes far beyond just palamres. It's the story, the legend, personality, panache...

There is not even minimum required palmares. Let me give you an example: Who is the GOAT in F1? Many (not me) would argue Senna. And his palmares are not that outstanding - there are many drivers with better palmares, some of them not even remotely considered to be goats... He was even beaten by Prost in equal machinery to get the title in 1989. So why is he considered GOAT by many and Prost by none?

It's about the effect you have on the sport and the legacy you create. So please, come to your senses and stop trying to define some sort of criteria by which Pog will categorise to be goat. He either will or he won't.

But how can you compare driving a car to riding a bicycle? The only thing common between them is that both are mostly done on the road. I mean there are different standards, like physiological capacity for one. There are certain achievments in cycling that are standard historical requirements. Winning the Tour is one, primary if it must be said. Being able to win the Tour AND Flanders, especially in the modern era...now we're getting somewhere. But there are also a number of other musts. This is not driving skill, but physiological prowess.

 

[how yes no?]

@Extinction
How about this...
lets say a rider wins 6 straight tours at the start of his career, then he gains weight and is winning monuments all over, and somebody beats him in the tour 7 times in this latter part of his career, but this competitor never wins a monument.
It is (I think) obvious who would be closer to Mercx in the goat comparisons, but by your criteria, that rider would not even be the best of the generation.


Yes, tour wins are necessary, but if you have 4 or 7, should not be the decisive factor, all things considered.

 

[Berniece]

@Extinction
How about this...
lets say a rider wins 6 straight tours at the start of his career, then he gains weight and is winning monuments all over, and somebody beats him in the tour 7 times in this latter part of his career, but this competitor never wins a monument.
It is (I think) obvious who would be closer to Mercx in the goat comparisons, but by your criteria, that rider would not even be the best of the generation.


Yes, tour wins are necessary, but if you have 4 or 7, should not be the decisive factor, all things considered.

Weird comparison since Pogacar didn’t start bulking up a lot compared to 2020/2021

 

[snipeheem]

There is absolutely no way to objectively define criteria for goathood as it goes far beyond just palamres. It's the story, the legend, personality, panache...

There is not even minimum required palmares. Let me give you an example: Who is the GOAT in F1? Many (not me) would argue Senna. And his palmares are not that outstanding - there are many drivers with better palmares, some of them not even remotely considered to be goats... He was even beaten by Prost in equal machinery to get the title in 1989. So why is he considered GOAT by many and Prost by none?

It's about the effect you have on the sport and the legacy you create. So please, come to your senses and stop trying to define some sort of criteria by which Pog will categorise to be goat. He either will or he won't.

People who understand f1 knows its either Senna or Clark

 

[bNator]

But how can you compare driving a car to riding a bicycle? The only thing common between them is that both are mostly done on the road. I mean there are different standards, like physiological capacity for one. There are certain achievments in cycling that are standard historical requirements. Winning the Tour is one, primary if it must be said. Being able to win the Tour AND Flanders, especially in the modern era...now we're getting somewhere. But there are also a number of other musts. This is not driving skill, but physiological prowess.

But these are all criteria that you came up with and more so, there's plenty of similar artibtrary criteria in F1 as well. Winning TdF can be analogous to winning the F1 championship. Senna won only 3. Schumacher won 7. Why would Senna be greater than Schumacher? (it's a rhetorical question) Winning Tour and Flanders could be analogous to winning the championship in an inferior machinery or while producing extraordinary performance in the wet. Then there's the strength of the field, incredible pole laps, daring overtakes - there's plenty of options and they often can't be quantified by mere numbers. Just like in cycling...

People who understand f1 knows its either Senna or Clark

For you, it's Senna or Clark. For somebody else, bringing glory back to Ferrari after 2 decades of drought might be worth more... And since we're talking about Clark - how many of his races have you seen? Unless you're really old, I would guess none. So where does your opinion come from? It's the legend he created, not the results he achieved...

The point I'm trying to make is that greatness can't be quantified and goat status can't be proven. There are just people who believe someone is a GOAT.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I’m surprised @Extinction is being portrayed as a troll or frankly that his argument is getting any pushback at all. Of course Pogacar isn’t the greatest of all time if he isn’t even the greatest Tour de France rider of his age. As it stands, Vingegaard destroyed him 2 years in a row. Sure, one could squint and spin explanations, but explanations don’t count when it comes to GOAT status. Also, the argument that Vingegaard only performs in the Tour ignores his 2023 Vuelta and his one-week performances.

That doesn’t mean Pogacar isn’t a phenomenon. He absolutely is. He is on track to be on the Mount Rushmore of cycling, but I 100% agree he needs to assert his dominance head to head against an in form Vingegaard to have a shot at GOAT. But if Vingegaard wins 5 Tours, 3 Vueltas, and a couple Giros during Pogacar’s era, what will that say?

Contador was never on GOAT trajectory or on the all around level of Pogacar, but he suffered the same issue with his legacy when he couldn’t beat Froome at the Tour.

I was a huge Contador fan and am much more of a Pogacar fan than a Vingegaard fan, but it is what it is.

 

[snipeheem]

But these are all criteria that you came up with and more so, there's plenty of similar artibtrary criteria in F1 as well. Winning TdF can be analogous to winning the F1 championship. Senna won only 3. Schumacher won 7. Why would Senna be greater than Schumacher? (it's a rhetorical question) Winning Tour and Flanders could be analogous to winning the championship in an inferior machinery or while producing extraordinary performance in the wet. Then there's the strength of the field, incredible pole laps, daring overtakes - there's plenty of options and they often can't be quantified by mere numbers. Just like in cycling...


For you, it's Senna or Clark. For somebody else, bringing glory back to Ferrari after 2 decades of drought might be worth more... And since we're talking about Clark - how many of his races have you seen? Unless you're really old, I would guess none. So where does your opinion come from? It's the legend he created, not the results he achieved...

The point I'm trying to make is that greatness can't be quantified and goat status can't be proven. There are just people who believe someone is a GOAT.

I got your point but there are opinions from expert, rivals , historians , etc. U are saying that for me its senna or clark but that not only for me. like i said before, for anybody who understand f1.

 

[perico]

Different times and cycling is far more advanced and specialized now then the old days back then so its not that black and white tho i agree its a stupid comparison anyway. Hes the modern day Merckx easiest way to say no matter if it hurts ppl or not. Ppl will always have their preference based on emotional/nostalgic reasons too no matter what sport thats all fine.

I agree with the likes of Gilbert, Contador, Thomas and pretty much everyone else ive heard recently put him in the same chair as Merckx already not saying hes greater just different times.

Sorry if I take those ppl words more serious than yours

I love Teddy, but he’s first needs to equal Hinault before we start comparing him to Merckx. He’s the most complete rider I’ve seen since Hinault, but he hasn’t equaled the Badger yet.

Pogacar is already one of the greats, but he’s not on the level of Merckx or Hinault yet- who literally won everything- and did so multiple times in many instances.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I’m surprised @Extinction is being portrayed as a troll or frankly that his argument is getting any pushback at all. Of course Pogacar isn’t the greatest of all time if he isn’t even the greatest Tour de France rider of his age. As it stands, Vingegaard destroyed him 2 years in a row. Sure, one could squint and spin explanations, but explanations don’t count when it comes to GOAT status. Also, the argument that Vingegaard only performs in the Tour ignores his 2023 Vuelta and his one-week performances.

That doesn’t mean Pogacar isn’t a phenomenon. He absolutely is. He is on track to be on the Mount Rushmore of cycling, but I 100% agree he needs to assert his dominance head to head against an in form Vingegaard to have a shot at GOAT. But if Vingegaard wins 5 Tours, 3 Vueltas, and a couple Giros during Pogacar’s era, what will that say?

Contador was never on GOAT trajectory or on the all around level of Pogacar, but he suffered the same issue with his legacy when he couldn’t beat Froome at the Tour.

I was a huge Contador fan and am much more of a Pogacar fan than a Vingegaard fan, but it is what it is.

@Extinction was clearly trolling or some degrees below his usual posts when he stated that winning a Tour automatically grants you #1 status.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I love Teddy, but he’s first needs to equal Hinault before we start comparing him to Merckx. He’s the most complete rider I’ve seen since Hinault, but he hasn’t equaled the Badger yet.

Pogacar is already one of the greats, but he’s not on the level of Merckx or Hinault yet- who literally won everything- and did so multiple times in many instances.

Different times, we have already been through this. The later a sport/art/craft is, the harder it is to reach the same legendary status of yore, because giants tend to come out in a sport/art/craft infancy. This is the case with woman procycling.

 

[how yes no?]

Weird comparison since Pogacar didn’t start bulking up a lot compared to 2020/2021

I'm not arguing the Pogačars case, but flawed logic that is used to argue for/against his case.
Pogačar also didn't win 6 tours at the start of the career, as it happened in my example.

The though-experiment could show that a goat does not need to be always and everywhere the best (but being the best at one time is required, I am sure). Even Mercx lost some races.
It also tried to demonstrate that number of tour victories cannot be the absolute measure that decides who is the best when comparing cyclists.

To be honest, I mostly argue for the love of arguing, not to prove a point here.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He didn't have a wrist injury in 2022. He'll have time to demonstrate otherwise, if he is able. Then I'll start to believe.

But he did have to go up against the strongest team with his own depleted and got worked over by Roglic to set up Vingegaard’s big breakout.

 

[tobydawq]

Was Valverde the best rider of the 2010's?

Of course.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

While I don't agree with @Extinction about the winner of the Tour being automatically the best rider in the world (as there are a lot of important races in the season) he has a point regarding GOAT title (which is a very strong claim) - to validate this kind of claims Pogacar surely needs more TdF victories (while also defeating his nemezis there) among many other wins, which are still needed.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog = GOAT

Case closed.

 

[Extinction]

While I don't agree with @Extinction about the winner of the Tour being automatically the best rider in the world (as there are a lot of important races in the season) he has a point regarding GOAT title (which is a very strong claim) - to validate this kind of claims Pogacar surely needs more TdF victories (while also defeating his nemezis there) among many other wins, which are still needed.

PS: I don't mean the Tour winner is the best rider anually, but that in that year had the biggest engine (for some indeed this may indicate the number one in the world, for others it depends on another rider's feats, like say winning monuments and worlds that year). In any case, thanks for finally indicating the point I was trying to make, namely that the Tour is simply too big to be dominated in and still be up for Goatdom. So let's say for argument's sake Vingegaard continues to smash the Tour against the GOAT, what does that make him? Just the Tour champ? Or perhaps the GOAT isn't really the GOAT?

PPS: Sorry, I realize I actually said the Tour winner is number one, but I really meant what I just wrote.

 

[Cookster15]

but he was soundly defeated at the Tour two years in a row

Yes but there were possible explanations for that. As has been explained ad nauseam, yet papered over, Pogacar rode stupid on Granon which effectively lost him that Tour and last year, yes the wrist interrupted his prep which is the only valid reason why he collapsed on Loze the day after he went deep in the Combloux TT.

Already this season I think Pogacar is giving some strong clues what he is capable of with uninterrupted preparation. As others have said, putting the two TdFs defeats aside, he has shown progression since 2020 - as we would expect for such a young rider.

I agree he needs to beat Vingegaard at the Tour but its way too early to suggest Pog is the GOAT anyway.

 

[Extinction]

PS: I don't mean the Tour winner is the best rider anually, but that in that year had the biggest engine (for some indeed this may indicate the number one in the world, for others it depends on another rider's feats, like say winning monuments and worlds that year). In any case, thanks for finally indicating the point I was trying to make, namely that the Tour is simply too big to be dominated in and still be up for Goatdom. So let's say for argument's sake Vingegaard continues to smash the Tour against the GOAT, what does that make him? Just the Tour champ? Or perhaps the GOAT isn't really the GOAT?

@Extinction was clearly trolling or some degrees below his usual posts when he stated that winning a Tour automatically grants you #1 status.

I wasn't trolling. I've revised my thoughts on the Tour winner. He's got the biggest engine that year. Often in my book that makes him king, but others can make valid arguments otherwise. Yet when we are dealing with Vingegaard level Tour 2023, it's hard to say Pog didn't play second fiddle to him if we are honest.

 

[Extinction]

Yes but there were possible explanations for that. As has been explained ad nauseam, yet papered over, Pogacar rode stupid on Granon which effectively lost him that Tour and last year, yes the wrist interrupted his prep which is the only valid reason why he collapsed on Loze the day after he went deep in the Combloux TT.

Already this season I think Pogacar is giving some strong clues what he is capable of with uninterrupted preparation. As others have said, putting the two TdFs defeats aside, he has shown progression since 2020 - as we would expect for such a young rider.

I agree he needs to beat Vingegaard at the Tour but its way too early to suggest Pog is the GOAT anyway.

Agreed and the same can be said of Vingegaard this year, who sustained much worse injuries. Like I said claims of Goatdom are far too premature. First Pog needs to get the Tour back from a healthy Vingegaard and then we can evaluate further. It's a shame Vingegaard was devastated in the Itzulia crash, because it would have been nice to see a battle of the titans in this Tour, in which both had smooth buildups.

 

[Extinction]

I’m surprised @Extinction is being portrayed as a troll or frankly that his argument is getting any pushback at all. Of course Pogacar isn’t the greatest of all time if he isn’t even the greatest Tour de France rider of his age. As it stands, Vingegaard destroyed him 2 years in a row. Sure, one could squint and spin explanations, but explanations don’t count when it comes to GOAT status. Also, the argument that Vingegaard only performs in the Tour ignores his 2023 Vuelta and his one-week performances.

That doesn’t mean Pogacar isn’t a phenomenon. He absolutely is. He is on track to be on the Mount Rushmore of cycling, but I 100% agree he needs to assert his dominance head to head against an in form Vingegaard to have a shot at GOAT. But if Vingegaard wins 5 Tours, 3 Vueltas, and a couple Giros during Pogacar’s era, what will that say?

Contador was never on GOAT trajectory or on the all around level of Pogacar, but he suffered the same issue with his legacy when he couldn’t beat Froome at the Tour.

I was a huge Contador fan and am much more of a Pogacar fan than a Vingegaard fan, but it is what it is.

Thanks. I agree with all of this. Evidently I just invite polemics, but in no way was I trolling.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog beat Vinge fair and square in 2021

Goat status = confirmed