Point-Counterpoint responses to Armstrong defenses

[andy1234]

The litmus test for DW's ignore list is whether or not he agrees with you on any subject in the world. I had him confused for awhile, until drug mule urged him to put me on ignore when I was pointing out some contradictory GL incovenience, and then he started looking at me more closely.

Chewbacca (TFF), one of the most rabid LA haters around, is also on his ignore list. TFF must have told him the sun rose in the east.

So, how many times has LA been tested? I really don't care but some of you might. With the magic conspiracy Ferrari coverup dust flying around and all it might be pretty hard to get a handle on this.

Im just glad I didn't actually suggest that Armstrong had submitted 500 tests, rather than just question someones claims that he hadn't.

I would have felt awful about all the heads that could have imploded.

 

[ChrisE]

Im just glad I didn't actually suggest that Armstrong had submitted 500 tests, rather than just question someones claims that he hadn't.

I would have felt awful about all the heads that could have imploded.

It's a fun little game, apparently. He says this many tests, they say prove it. He says prove he didn't. She says prove he did. And on and on. Kinda akin to the "I know you are but what am I" game we all used to play as kids when name calling. Yawn.

 

[MacRoadie]

It's a fun little game, apparently.

No, it's called "shifting the burden of proof", or "argumentum ad ignorantium" (how appropriately named).

Burden of Proof

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

Argument from ignorance

Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false...

Until someone proves the INITIAL assertion of 500 tests, then it's just 100% horse ****.

 

[mwbyrd]

Yes, let's hold on lol.

If you can find a post of mine that says there was no way to beat the tests, then please link it. Good luck, and take your time. And, no need to waste your keystrokes educating me on what was detectable once your search turns up nothing.

There is much evidence of people beating the tests, so much because they can be beat and there is corruption. Even the clinic felon in here is going around bragging about what everybody does, amazingly without Ferrari.

What a shock. Has USADA or any ADA trumpetted this obvious deception before, other than the obvious ones like HGH? Has Tygart claimed test effectiveness before, while knowing otherwise? This case comes out of the sky alleging 15 years of deception and worthless testing methods. How about some front page news and some 'duh' moments while USADA keeps getting testing funding and they can put on a good spin while testing others right at this very moment.

Also, save the magical powers of Ferrari. LA was doing what all the other top pros were. Ferrari's magic consisted of "hey, don't take EPO cuz there is now a test" before he got popped at TdS. Some magic. Where's the magic dust?

TH and FL never said LA had advantage in eluding tests due to Ferrari or that he had an advantage because Ferrari was some type of magic man. Ferrari is being used as USADA cover for sports worthless testing methods and corruption. There has to be a CYA somewhere when USADA does this because testing methods are no good. There must be a magic reason, right?

FL was even doing his own doping in 2005 and all thru the spring of 2006, and didn't get caught. You guys read what you want to believe into TH and FL, and ignore the rest. And, just look at the sport(s) and carve out what you can use. Kinda like the bible. Yes, the only way to elude tests is with Ferrari lol.

You guys are funny, and when LA's group points out that TH doped forever and FL doped in 05/06 and others all throughout the recent sport, without Ferrari and without getting caught, then this little conspiracy accusation gets alot more interesting. Maybe they can pull some of the clinic fellon's post out of the clinic to use during the hearing lol.

FL has had every chance to slam LA as a donkey/racehorse but he went out of his way to praise his ability on the bike. So did TH. Did you guys forget to cc them on the hate talking points memo?

This Ferrari BS is leftover residue from the cult reason to explain why LA beat a bunch of other dopers; he was a "better responder" and had Merlin the doctor on his side. That was a bunch of BS then, and it is now. Ask TH and FL. That's ok...it makes for good reason to go praise 2nd place doper JU in his little pitty-party thread lol.

Thank you so much for this post! It's about time someone stated the obvious.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It's a fun little game, apparently. He says this many tests, they say prove it. He says prove he didn't. She says prove he did. And on and on. Kinda akin to the "I know you are but what am I" game we all used to play as kids when name calling. Yawn.

Only the idiots make the "prove he didn't argument."

If you state a hypothesis, it's your burden to support it. It's not the burden of anyone else to refute it. If you can't provide any evidence for it, it's false.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes, let's hold on lol.

If you can find a post of mine that says there was no way to beat the tests, then please link it. Good luck, and take your time. And, no need to waste your keystrokes educating me on what was detectable once your search turns up nothing.

This is a very stupid post. I'm sorry, but it really is. I think you're arguing against some imaginary third person, as I have never said you claimed there was no way to beat the test. I am simply trying to have a discussion and you're responding by demonstrating how to tie a square knot with your panties. Relax.

First of all, if Ferrari had nothing special, he would a) not have been exclusively hired by Lance, b) not be referred as "Il Mito", and c) not been able to charge 10% of a rider's salary.

I realize you want to make up things to support your hero in his time of tribulation, but your problem is that your posts reek of BS. As do those of your sockpuppets.

But by all means, keep up the crappy work.

 

[patricknd]

The litmus test for DW's ignore list is whether or not he agrees with you on any subject in the world. I had him confused for awhile, until drug mule urged him to put me on ignore when I was pointing out some contradictory GL incovenience, and then he started looking at me more closely.

Chewbacca (TFF), one of the most rabid LA haters around, is also on his ignore list. TFF must have told him the sun rose in the east.

So, how many times has LA been tested? I really don't care but some of you might. With the magic conspiracy Ferrari coverup dust flying around and all it might be pretty hard to get a handle on this.

that's "reformed drug mule"

 

[ChrisE]

*snip sleep aid*

Until someone proves the INITIAL assertion of 500 tests, then it's just 100% horse ****.

Yes, you have cleared it all up. Alert the AP.

*Yawn*

 

[sashimono]

Just some math:

Even if it WAS 500 tests in 25 years -- on 95% of the days in that period Lance was NOT tested.

Thats a lot of not-testing.

 

[MarkvW]

No, it's called "shifting the burden of proof", or "argumentum ad ignorantium" (how appropriately named).

Burden of Proof



Argument from ignorance



Until someone proves the INITIAL assertion of 500 tests, then it's just 100% horse ****.

All this talk of testing is kind of funny. We've discussed up one side and down the other how easy it was (and is) to avoid antidoping tests--and we've discussed specific Posties (Floyd and Tyler) talking about beating the tests, yet now we're discussing Lance Armstrong's most treasured talking point--that he's the most tested athlete.

I don't see why "most tested" matters. Maybe Lance cares about the tests he successfully passed, but I can't divine any reason why anybody else should.

 

[MacRoadie]

Yes, you have cleared it all up. Alert the AP.

*Yawn*

Sorry Chris. I wrote that prior to reading the other thread: the one wherein you admitted to not being particularly intelligent.

In the future, I'll try to refrain from polysyllabic words, and sentences containing multiple phrases or clauses, and stick with something more akin to "See spot run".

 

[Hugh Januss]

Only the idiots make the "prove he didn't argument."

If you state a hypothesis, it's your burden to support it. It's not the burden of anyone else to refute it. If you can't provide any evidence for it, it's false.

That is exactly what I was saying.

 

[andy1234]

Only the idiots make the "prove he didn't argument."

If you state a hypothesis, it's your burden to support it. It's not the burden of anyone else to refute it. If you can't provide any evidence for it, it's false.

That is exactly what I was saying.

If I stated that Armstrong had submitted to 500 tests, it would be my Hypothesis to support.

I, however, didn't make the statement, nor agree or refute the statement made by Armstrong.
I simply challenged a statement RR made, with regards to the validity of the 500 tests.

It's good that you both share the belief that "If you can't provide any evidence for it, it's false"
I couldn't agree more.

Now if you want to challenge Mr Armstrong personally, your argument about burden of proof would apply directly. Until then, keep an eye on who is, and isn't, making statements that require proof.

Give me a shout if you need any further help with this gents.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If I stated that Armstrong had submitted to 500 tests, it would be my Hypothesis to support.

I, however, didn't make the statement, nor agree or refute the statement made by Armstrong.
I simply challenged a statement RR made, with regards to the validity of the 500 tests.

It's good that you both share the belief that "If you can't provide any evidence for it, it's false"
I couldn't agree more.

Now if you want to challenge Mr Armstrong personally, your argument about burden of proof would apply directly. Until then, keep an eye on who is, and isn't, making statements that require proof.

Give me a shout if you need any further help with this gents.

So you really don't think there were that may tests either? We all agree then, case closed.

 

[andy1234]

So you really don't think there were that may tests either? We all agree then, case closed.

I don't know one way or the other
But I would like actual statistics from anyone who claims to know.
I'm also still waiting to see proof of the hypothesis that Kristin Armstrong has been tested more times than Lance Armstrong.

I believe the burden of proof is on you.......

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't know one way or the other
But I would like actual statistics from anyone who claims to know.
I'm also still waiting to see proof of the hypothesis that Kristin Armstrong has been tested more times than Lance Armstrong.

I believe the burden of proof is on you.......

Hi Andy - its funny that you say "I simply challenged a statement RR made, with regards to the validity of the 500 tests". - of course RR claims that LA never reached that number, so your challenge would be better aimed at Mr Armstrong.

But to help you out - the USADA have records of tests starting from 2001:
2001 - L. Armstrong 2
2002 - L. Armstrong 1
2003 - L. Armstrong 1 - K. Armstrong 3
2004 - L. Armstrong 5 - K. Armstrong 4
2005 - L. Armstrong 3 - K. Armstrong 2
2006 - ........................ - K. Armstrong 21
2007 - .........................- K. Armstrong 9
2008 - L. Armstrong 2 - K. Armstrong 11
2009 - L. Armstrong 6 - K. Armstrong 8
2010 - L. Armstrong 9
2011 - .........................- K. Armstrong 10
All data from the USADA testing figures here.

 

[andy1234]

Hi Andy - its funny that you say "I simply challenged a statement RR made, with regards to the validity of the 500 tests". - of course RR claims that LA never reached that number, so your challenge would be better aimed at Mr Armstrong.

But to help you out - the USADA have records of tests starting from 2001:
2001 - L. Armstrong 2
2002 - L. Armstrong 1
2003 - L. Armstrong 1 - K. Armstrong 3
2004 - L. Armstrong 5 - K. Armstrong 4
2005 - L. Armstrong 3 - K. Armstrong 2
2006 - ........................ - K. Armstrong 21
2007 - .........................- K. Armstrong 9
2008 - L. Armstrong 2 - K. Armstrong 11
2009 - L. Armstrong 6 - K. Armstrong 8
2010 - L. Armstrong 9
2011 - .........................- K. Armstrong 10
All data from the USADA testing figures here.

Sigh.....

European based athlete is tested less by an American organisation than a US based athlete....shocker

Got any European testing figures?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sigh.....

European based athlete is tested less by an American organisation than a US based athlete....shocker

Got any European testing figures?

Sigh indeed - why would you want European numbers when the original reference was "in America"?

But to help you out - in l'Equipe in August 2005 they reported all Armstrongs (thats Lance, not Kristin, who also raced in Europe) UCI tests from 1999 to 2004.
These were the total figures:
1999: 15 urine tests
2000: 12 urine tests
2001: 10 urine tests
2002: 9 urine tests
2003: 9 urine tests including the search for HES,
2004: 8 urine tests and 1 blood test for the detection of hemoglobin synthesis.

You can add that to the 29 earlier - you have only 500 more to find.

 

[MacRoadie]

Sigh.....

European based athlete is tested less by an American organisation than a US based athlete....shocker

Got any European testing figures?

Sigh.....

Here's what Hugh said, and read it carefully and slowly:

Lance Armstrong is not only not "the most tested athlete in the world"TM he is not even the most tested cyclist .........in America...........named Armstrong.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=904942&postcount=69

 

[andy1234]

Sigh.....

Here's what Hugh said, and read it carefully and slowly:



http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=904942&postcount=69

sigh....

There are many many athletes who are not the most anything in America.
You know why? because they don't live or compete in America.

Whats next? Prof Stephen Hawking isn't as clever as the average American teenager because he doesn't have a US highschool diploma?

If you can find a quote where Armstrong claims to be the most tested athlete by the USADA, then that's the country you can limit the dope test count to.

Otherwise it's irrelevant.

So, got those global figures yet?

 

[thehog]

sigh....

There are many many athletes who are not the most anything in America.
You know why? because they don't live or compete in America.

Whats next? Prof Stephen Hawking isn't as clever as the average American teenager because he doesn't have a US highschool diploma?

If you can find a quote where Armstrong claims to be the most tested athlete by the USADA, then that's the country you can limit the dope test count to.

Otherwise it's irrelevant.

So, got those global figures yet?

straws clutching at

 

[Hugh Januss]

sigh....

There are many many athletes who are not the most anything in America.
You know why? because they don't live or compete in America.

Whats next? Prof Stephen Hawking isn't as clever as the average American teenager because he doesn't have a US highschool diploma?

If you can find a quote where Armstrong claims to be the most tested athlete by the USADA, then that's the country you can limit the dope test count to.

Otherwise it's irrelevant.

So, got those global figures yet?

Lance was an American athlete on American registered teams for the vast majority of his career, the fact that he spent parts of his season hiding from out of competition testing in Spain hardly proves your point. With an American license he was primarily the responsibility of USADA, in competition tests in Europe excepted. Besides I bet KA competed internationally nearly as often anyway.
Bigger point is more than likely as long as UCI was running testing Lance had nothing to worry about. We don't know this for absolute certain but hopefully we will find this out, one way or the other.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It is quite clear at this point that not only is there no evidence to support Armstrong's claims of 500 tests, but also, there is ample evidence that he was tested nowhere near that number of times by the combination of USADA or Europeans.

 

[TubularBills]

It is quite clear at this point that not only is there no evidence to support Armstrong's claims of 500 tests, but also, there is ample evidence that he was tested nowhere near that number of times by the combination of USADA or Europeans.

perhaps what the LA camp is referring to is the # of tests it took to readjust levels internally?

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, you have cleared it all up. Alert the AP.

*Yawn*

Gotta give it up... You get owned and come back for more over and over and over.

I'd say "scoreboard" but I dont think you'd get it.