Question Poll - is tadej pocagar using a hidden motor?

[Netserk]

I just don't buy chemical assistance because there can be retrospective testing.

That has been the case for decades. Other than CERA, it has caught very few.

If you're not gonna test positive tomorrow, the risk that you will be caught later is minuscule.

 

[Cookster15]

That has been the case for decades. Other than CERA, it has caught very few.

If you're not gonna test positive tomorrow, the risk that you will be caught later is minuscule.

That depends what "substance". Some dissipate in samples over time others don't and will still be detectable in samples decades later if stored correctly.

As for who has been caught, there were others. Gianetti's client Cobo the most obvious but that took 8 years which was frankly ridiculous. Wheel comes back to lawyers I think. Its frustrating. Legally enforceable methods to detect doping need to work in 24 hours to be an effective deterrent.

Wiki has a list but not sure why I don't see Cobo listed?
Cyclists sanctioned on the basis of biological passport

 

[Netserk]

That depends what "substance". Some dissipate in samples over time others don't and will still be detectable in samples decades later if stored correctly.

As for who has been caught, there were others. Gianetti's client Cobo the most obvious but that took 8 years which was frankly ridiculous. Wheel comes back to lawyers I think. Its frustrating. Legally enforceable methods to detect doping need to work in 24 hours to be an effective deterrent.

Wiki has a list but not sure why I don't see Cobo listed?
Cyclists sanctioned on the basis of biological passport

We were discussing re-testing of old samples. I don't think that was the case for Cobo.

 

[Cookster15]

We were discussing re-testing of old samples. I don't think that was the case for Cobo.

I am discussing all ways to catch doping - in the context of explaining Pogacar. Cobo was caught by an adverse finding via the ABP but it took 8 years. It needs to happen in 24 hours to be effective.

 

[YellowSocks]

I just don't buy chemical assistance because there can be retrospective testing. That's why its a huge risk of another Armstrong like blow up. Plus chemical assistance has to boost oxygen transport - anything which increases a rider's blood capacity to transport more oxygen is theoretically detectable by the passport - e.g. HCT or RBC count.

Thomas Voeckler in an interview last month :

"What worries me a bit is that we haven't caught any guys for a few years. I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, when the economic stakes are much higher, when salaries are much higher, when budgets are three times bigger than they used to be, I find it hard to believe, to be completely honest, that everyone has said to themselves, well, it's not right to dope and that no one does it any more. (...) For me, the fight against doping works when you catch guys, because people with bad intentions, like in life, there will always be some."

 

[Froome]

Biological passport is a joke at the moment, they can't catch nobody.

Better end once and for all with WADA, and let everybody using doping without restrictions.

 

[red_flanders]

Motors make no sense to me there would be some kind of sign of unease in the peloton if hat was the case. Chemical assistance is detectable - even retrospectively. That is a huge risk.

The history of cycling suggests riders are OK with the risk.

 

[Nomad]

That depends what "substance". Some dissipate in samples over time others don't and will still be detectable in samples decades later if stored correctly.

As for who has been caught, there were others. Gianetti's client Cobo the most obvious but that took 8 years which was frankly ridiculous. Wheel comes back to lawyers I think. Its frustrating. Legally enforceable methods to detect doping need to work in 24 hours to be an effective deterrent.

Wiki has a list but not sure why I don't see Cobo listed?
Cyclists sanctioned on the basis of biological passport

I'll repost the commentary I did on the Cobo case on a previous thread with the link to his UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal hearing.

Also, the ABP can not detect microdosing of any ESA (i.e. EPO) nor small amounts of blood transfusions. So, as it stands now, riders can circumvent the ABP with microdosing. But microdosing usually doesn't produce big improvements in performance. You would need to macrodose like they did back in the 90s when a rider could dope with impunity. And look at some of those incredible performances by riders like Riis & Pantani with their documented exceedingly high blood values.

If Pogacar has found some way of circumventing the ABP with macrodosing, I would think other riders would have eventually caught on.


>The Cobo case is strange indeed. According to UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal report, the ABP hematological-anomalies occurred during both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta, but were not reviewed & evaluated by the anti-doping expert panel until July, 2014

The 09 Vuelta showed a high OFF-score sequence while the 2011 Vuelta show variability of RET% - both at 99% specificity (less than 1 in 100 chance of being undoped). The expert panel concluded that in their opinion it was highly likely the anomalies were the result of the prohibited use of an ESA or method (transfusions).

According to the report, Cobo was sent an anti-doping rule violation notice in Aug, 2014 detailing the expert panel's findings, and given the opportunity to respond & offer an explanation. Typically athletes will try to explain the anomalies due to multiple reasons (e.g. altitude training/hypoxia exposure, dehydration, illness, prescription medication use, sample collection concerns, etc). This is where the expert panel will have to further evaluate & render a final decision - which can take quite a bit of time in many cases.

Cobo responded back with a list of explanations that needed to be reviewed. However, the report states that Cobo was "granted multiple extensions of deadlines failing to respond" where the Tribunal gave it's final decision not until 2019.

The report doesn't address the issue of the 3 year delay when the anti-doping experts evaluated the anomalies from the two Vueltas. Usually when there's an abnormal value or sequence of values on the ABP, it's immediately flagged by the system & forwarded to the anti-doping experts for evaluation. Why the anomalies weren't flagged during the Vueltas or why the delay if they were flagged is still a mystery.

Here's the UCI Tribunal hearing report (PDF). It's very interesting on the timeline & the sequence of the events that led to Cobo's ban & DQ of both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta results:

 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zzRk9HEMAMtYndZCLF68b

 

[Cookster15]

I'll repost the commentary I did on the Cobo case on a previous thread with the link to his UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal hearing.

Also, the ABP can not detect microdosing of any ESA (i.e. EPO) nor small amounts of blood transfusions. So, as it stands now, riders can circumvent the ABP with microdosing. But microdosing usually doesn't produce big improvements in performance. You would need to macrodose like they did back in the 90s when a rider could dope with impunity. And look at some of those incredible performances by riders like Riis & Pantani with their documented exceedingly high blood values.

If Pogacar has found some way of circumventing the ABP with macrodosing, I would think other riders would have eventually caught on.


>The Cobo case is strange indeed. According to UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal report, the ABP hematological-anomalies occurred during both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta, but were not reviewed & evaluated by the anti-doping expert panel until July, 2014

The 09 Vuelta showed a high OFF-score sequence while the 2011 Vuelta show variability of RET% - both at 99% specificity (less than 1 in 100 chance of being undoped). The expert panel concluded that in their opinion it was highly likely the anomalies were the result of the prohibited use of an ESA or method (transfusions).

According to the report, Cobo was sent an anti-doping rule violation notice in Aug, 2014 detailing the expert panel's findings, and given the opportunity to respond & offer an explanation. Typically athletes will try to explain the anomalies due to multiple reasons (e.g. altitude training/hypoxia exposure, dehydration, illness, prescription medication use, sample collection concerns, etc). This is where the expert panel will have to further evaluate & render a final decision - which can take quite a bit of time in many cases.

Cobo responded back with a list of explanations that needed to be reviewed. However, the report states that Cobo was "granted multiple extensions of deadlines failing to respond" where the Tribunal gave it's final decision not until 2019.

The report doesn't address the issue of the 3 year delay when the anti-doping experts evaluated the anomalies from the two Vueltas. Usually when there's an abnormal value or sequence of values on the ABP, it's immediately flagged by the system & forwarded to the anti-doping experts for evaluation. Why the anomalies weren't flagged during the Vueltas or why the delay if they were flagged is still a mystery.

Here's the UCI Tribunal hearing report (PDF). It's very interesting on the timeline & the sequence of the events that led to Cobo's ban & DQ of both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta results:

 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zzRk9HEMAMtYndZCLF68b

Thank you. Yes the three year delay is the concern and a loophole still open for exploitation.

I noticed the below opinion by the expert panel for Cobo's passport violation case:

In summary, in consideration of the repeatedly observed suppression of the erythropoietic system and of the increase of HGB in time vicinity to important races, we believe that it is highly unlikely that the longitudinal profile X145P6 is the result of a normal physiological or pathological condition, and that, in the absence of a satisfactory explanation of the athlete, it is the highly likely result of the use of a prohibited substance and/or prohibited method, such as blood transfusions and/or the use of erythropoietic stimulants, in 2009 and in 2011.

Anyway, I am just glad we have steered discussion of Pogacar away from motor doping.

 

[Cookster15]

Biological passport is a joke at the moment, they can't catch nobody.

Better end once and for all with WADA, and let everybody using doping without restrictions.

You can't do that for rider safety. You'll see amateurs clogging their arteries and dying in their sleep as occurred back when EPO was first used. There has to be some level of restriction.

They only catch nobody due to a lack of motivation. The motivation to catch people needs restoring and whoever is resisting this should be challenged and if necessary pushed out of the way. If it is money, then someone needs to be talking about that. Even Formula 1 has addressed the cost of their sport which dwarfs cycling. Perhaps another journalist like Walsh would help too.

 

[Cookster15]

The history of cycling suggests riders are OK with the risk.

The riders may be OK with the risk but why would they be OK with a competitor having an unfair advantage?

 

[red_flanders]

The riders may be OK with the risk but why would they be OK with a competitor having an unfair advantage?

"Don't spit in the soup" has long been the clarion call.

My comments are not to say he (or anyone else in particular) is doping, just that the "it's too risky" and "other riders wouldn't stand for it" reasons, which seem ENTIRELY rational, have repeatedly been proven not to matter.

 

[Froome]

You can't do that for rider safety. You'll see amateurs clogging their arteries and dying in their sleep as occurred back when EPO was first used. There has to be some level of restriction.

That's they're own problem. Every person is responsible for himself.

I really doubt the top riders are worrying about is own health.

The history says, riders don't care about they're own health.

 

[Cookster15]

That's they're own problem. Every person is responsible for himself.

I really doubt the top riders are worrying about is own health.

The history says, riders don't care about they're own health.

History is a poor guide. The people who run the sport have an obligation to protect those who compete. If you were the parent of a young cyclist you'd want them to.

 

[Froome]

History is a poor guide. The people who run the sport have an obligation to protect those who compete. If you were the parent of a young cyclist you'd want them to.

Guys like Gianneti? Seriously? They only care about money.

 

[Cookster15]

Guys like Gianneti? Seriously? They only care about money.

Don't move the goalposts. You were the person who suggested no controls on doping:-

Better end once and for all with WADA, and let everybody using doping without restrictions.

That's they're own problem. Every person is responsible for himself.

I really doubt the top riders are worrying about is own health.

The history says, riders don't care about they're own health.

 

[ivanic]

Biological passport is a joke at the moment, they can't catch nobody.

Better end once and for all with WADA, and let everybody using doping without restrictions.

Robert Stannard and Cobo, YEARS LATER, YEARS.
Only the police (MAL) can stop doping.