Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[Shakes]

6.2 w/kg for what? 30-40 minutes (your average MTF), an hour or?..

Based on the article, 40 minutes.

Other relevant snippet regarding 7wk/g, which we almost are at now and wat above the previously stated 6.2... :

about 7W/kg, and applying the same equations as I’ve done throughout this post, you can work out that it requires oxygen consumption of 87 ml/kg/min, and a VO2max of 97 ml/kg/min (and that’s at 90% of maximum. If you go with 85%, you get 103 ml/kg/min…).

Is that realistic? I suspect that your answer to that question depends not on what you know, but rather on what you want to believe. I don’t believe that it is possible, because the combination of high efficiency (and 23% is high) and high VO2max doesn’t seem to exist. In fact, Lucia et al showed that there was an inverse relationship, so that those with the best efficiency had the lowest VO2max [cite

 

[Valv.Piti]

Thats relatively low for a fresh effort MTF I'd suggest, but alright.

But no, I don't think Pog's performance was realistic. I just want to find out what these riders and team do that others apparently dont. And what changed from 2021-2023 to 2024.

 

[Shakes]

Thats relatively low for a fresh effort MTF I'd suggest, but alright.

But no, I don't think Pog's performance was realistic. I just want to find out what these riders and team do that others apparently dont. And what changed from 2021-2023 to 2024.

Agreed on the relatively low number. However, at the time Froome data indicated he dropped everyone with 6.2wkg and Pinot at time published having ridden 6 (Gesink 5.8 and Ten Dam also something like that). At the time it were supposedly tour winning numbers. Now just a decade later it's... 7? While Sky was supposedly already focusing on their carbs (marginal gains and all).

Anyway, shared this article as that's one I could remember. There was also a podcast in the Netherlands (beter worden, with Ten Dam amongst others) of a few years ago where the sport physiologist on the show mentioned numbers which were feasible and that Ten Dam with 5.8 would still be top 10. Looking at numbers now... He'd be very far away.

No one seemingly goes back to those statements and compare the now to expectations then. With the now blowing it all out if the water. I'd be a happy believer but when limits are stated and then surpassed by miles I'm having difficulties.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Has ammattipyoraily posted his w/kg estimation for PdB yet? Reading those numbers from other sources, i.e. 6.9-6.95 w/kg by Pogacar, they look too high. This was incredible performance, the best ever for a long climb (VAM alone can tell us that) but to me it seems it should be closer to 6.75 w/kg (according to VAM and by extrapolating Derek Gee data). Did they actually assumed headwind (Gee's power data obviously includes weather conditions) or were there other factors involved? (i.e. time alone vs time on the wheel)

 

[Netserk]

Has ammattipyoraily posted his w/kg estimation for PdB yet? Reading those numbers from other sources, i.e. 6.9-6.95 w/kg by Pogacar, they look too high. This was incredible performance, the best ever for a long climb (VAM alone can tell us that) but to me it seems it should be closer to 6.75 w/kg (according to VAM and by extrapolating Derek Gee data). Did they actually assumed headwind (Gee's power data obviously includes weather conditions) or were there other factors involved? (i.e. time alone vs time on the wheel)

No W/kg estimation. Too insane performance for that, eh. Alpe d'Huez comparison instead:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812888145978888443

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1812888145978888443

 

[Krzysztof_O]

No W/kg estimation. Too insane performance for that, eh. Alpe d'Huez comparison instead:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812888145978888443

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1812888145978888443

Keeping power the same is the key here, meaning that 35.5 minutes is the upper bound. Had the climb been 1.8 km shorter Teddy would've smashed the finale even more (going a bit faster than this estimation)

 

[meat puppet]

PdB is too unknown to the wider public. They should have stormed Huez to end Pantani's reign of terror over AdH and clean cycling once and for all. 35mins of liberation.

 

[webvan]

I recently came across a site that has nice comparisons over the years, stages, etc...

This is what they have for PdB : https://watts2win.eu/course/2024/TDF/56#s

 

[Shakes]

I'm a bit slow. Linked to Science of Sport earlier but now see that a decade ago Ross was active here. @The Science of Sport

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812878923786576358

View: https://x.com/festinaboy/status/1812878923786576358


I still can't understand what happened on sunday.

We have a era before 2020, the we have the era between 2020 post covid until saturday, where they were improving a little year after year, and we have the era of Sunday Plateau de beille.

If we look at the data of saturday, Pogacar did a perfomance similar with the perfomance of Peyresourde 2020, maybe a bit better.

Then, suddendly, on sunday, we have one guy doing 6.8 w/kg in 40 min, the other one doing 6.6/6.65 w/kg in 41 min, and Remco evenepoel doing 6.3 w/kg.

I expected after 200 km of a stage with 5000 vertical meters, the winner doing at best 6.3 w/kg like Remco evenepoel did.

It doesn't make any sense, how they do 6.8 w/kg in two climbs in the stage of lioran full gas, and then someone does the same during 40 min 5 days later.

 

[Invicituz]

Second Greatest Performance Of All-Time By Pogačar | Tour de France 2024 Stage 19

Second Greatest Performance Of All-Time By Pogačar | Tour de France 2024 Stage 19 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar again showed off his incredible legs, pushing all-time great watts on the popular Isola 2000 climb, winning his 15th Tour de France stage.

lanternerouge.com

Pogačar on Isola 2000 averaged 6.83 ᵉW/Kg for 37:44 min and 7.21 ᵉW/Kg normalized for sea level.

 

[meat puppet]

Any other estimates?

 

[webvan]

Watts2win says the same. Not sure how they calculate their performance index though.

 

[Invicituz]

Pogačar Sets Another Record Up Couillole | Tour de France 2024 Stage 20

Pogačar Sets Another Record Up Couillole | Tour de France 2024 Stage 20 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar continues to dominate the 2024 Tour de France with his fifth win in a mountain stage in a single Grand Tour. Jonas Vingegaard pushed high watts, but not enough to beat the Slovenian.

lanternerouge.com

Pogačar averaged 6.52 ᵉW/Kg for 39:24 min. Vingegaard did more work at the front and despite losing pushed 6.56 ᵉW/Kg

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So Pogacar smashed San Luca, Galibier, Pla d'Adet, Plateau de Beille, Isola and Couillole records during one race. Not bad.

 

[BigL]

So Pogacar smashed San Luca, Galibier, Pla d'Adet, Plateau de Beille, Isola and Couillole records during one race. Not bad.

And two of these are quantitatively the two best climbs EVER. A simple application of “what is more likely” does not benefit Pogacar. He was not discrete enough.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just a nod to BigL for their username, putting it on as your username is truly a power move to get the cheddar.

I posted a couple of Biggie videos yesterday, but Big L is one of the very few I would put up against him for sheer flow.

 

[snipeheem]

Just a nod to BigL for their username, putting it on as your username is truly a power move to get the cheddar.

I posted a couple of Biggie videos yesterday, but Big L is one of the very few I would put up against him for sheer flow.

Big L the goat

 

[Contador99]

Watts2win says the same. Not sure how they calculate their performance index though.

Hello,
The performance index is explained here : https://watts2win.eu/article/performance-index
It takes into account raw performance (W/kg and duration), altitude and difficulty of the race/stage. And this allows all performances to be compared with each other. There is a page that displays the best performances of each year and Plateau de Beille and Isola 2000 were the first two performances in history with an index above 100.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Hello,
The performance index is explained here : https://watts2win.eu/article/performance-index
It takes into account raw performance (W/kg and duration), altitude and difficulty of the race/stage. And this allows all performances to be compared with each other. There is a page that displays the best performances of each year and Plateau de Beille and Isola 2000 were the first two performances in history with an index above 100.

It's an interesting site where all times/VAM/watts estimates can be found in one place. I'm still curious how exactly they calculate raw performance index (w/kg and duration relationship). What is the shape of the power curves they use. I suppose one needs a lot of historical data to estimate them (both mean as well as standard deviations from the baseline to know how good the performance is for a given duration).

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Hello,
The performance index is explained here : https://watts2win.eu/article/performance-index
It takes into account raw performance (W/kg and duration), altitude and difficulty of the race/stage. And this allows all performances to be compared with each other. There is a page that displays the best performances of each year and Plateau de Beille and Isola 2000 were the first two performances in history with an index above 100.

The specific link for me just turns out an error. But the site itself has great content (while being a bit of the pain in the as when it comes to design).
What a resource compared to finding out in bits about comparable data points.

 

[webvan]

Yes I'd seen that but I would have liked to see an actual calculation.
We'll have to trust them that they are applying their method consistently.
These 100+ performances are mind boggling, something's at play here...

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Yes I'd seen that but I would have liked to see an actual calculation.
We'll have to trust them that they are applying their method consistently.
These 100+ performances are mind boggling, something's at play here...

The jump from 2023 to 2024 at the Tour so extreme it makes zero sense.
When you compare last years Pogacar and this Years Landa in der raking, they are basically at the same level for example.

Performance level evolution over the years - Watts2Win

The ultimate database of cycling performance

watts2win.eu

 

[Contador99]

The specific link for me just turns out an error. But the site itself has great content (while being a bit of the pain in the as when it comes to design).
What a resource compared to finding out in bits about comparable data points.

Maybe you are on a smartphone? The site looks definitely better on desktop in my case and I don't get any errors when loading the page.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Ciccone now climbing better than peak Froome too, amazing considering a couple of years ago he was getting dropped on Alpe by err.. not-peak Froome

And he probably doesn't even crack the top 15 most-egregious