Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[Race Radio]

he always prepared himself to the teeth of course.

huge climbing talent well before '92 when he met the beautiful kerosene though. check those stories about a 14 year old pantani dropping the pros who were training in his area. true story.

comparing il pirata to rui costa

Please share with us those stories. Matt Rendel's book "The Death of Marco Pantani" Talks about how Marco was not especially talented as a junior with widely varying results. He started doping as a teenager then suddenly won the baby giro.

 

[Race Radio]

Or is there proof Pantani doped more, link it then?

Sure.

This graph shows the hematocrit of riders who were part of a state run program by the University of Ferrara in Italy. Highlighted in red the periods where cyclists would be competing in the Tour de France or Vuelta. The bars in green are the "off season" where cyclists are not racing and blue are mid-season.

The yellow triangle? Marco Pantani. Mr 64%

 

[Race Radio]

I'm a little astonished you can describe my posts in that thread as "arguing for the sake of it",

That was a good description of it.

Instead of derailing this great thread with more of the same maybe you could start a new one?

 

[jens_attacks]

Please share with us those stories. Matt Rendel's book "The Death of Marco Pantani" Talks about how Marco was not especially talented as a junior with widely varying results. He started doping as a teenager then suddenly won the baby giro.

1990 3rd in baby giro
1991 2nd in baby giro
1992 1st in baby giro

matt rendell hmm okay ....thanks but i'd rather trust people who actually saw him racing as a junior not a guy writing a sensationalist book. the most of the junior races to my knowledge in his area were flat from what i've read so of course he didn't win a lot

a tragic hero. a hero of its times. never to be forgotten, grandissimo marco

 

[Eshnar]

Sure.

This graph shows the hematocrit of riders who were part of a state run program by the University of Ferrara in Italy. Highlighted in red the periods where cyclists would be competing in the Tour de France or Vuelta. The bars in green are the "off season" where cyclists are not racing and blue are mid-season.

The yellow triangle? Marco Pantani. Mr 64%

don't those data show his hematocrit was actually comparable with the others?

 

[Merckx index]

Sure.

This graph shows the hematocrit of riders who were part of a state run program by the University of Ferrara in Italy. Highlighted in red the periods where cyclists would be competing in the Tour de France or Vuelta. The bars in green are the "off season" where cyclists are not racing and blue are mid-season.

The yellow triangle? Marco Pantani. Mr 64%

Interesting that his offseason values fall well within the normal range. It seems that for Pantani we can rule out the one physiological parameter known to enable a greater than normal response to EPO, a lower than normal HT.

Instead of derailing this great thread with more of the same maybe you could start a new one?

Gooner was the one who made the assertion that the existence of differential responders had been established by the Clinic. When I challenged him, he was the one who brought up the Ullrich thread.

I'm not going to start a new thread, because I have no reason to believe your response to it will be any different from your response to the earlier thread. You're silent when asked for evidence for your claims, just as you were silent when asked to support your contention that Moncoutie is not clean.

To the mods: I won't bring up this subject of Ullrich again, except as relevant to this thread.

 

[Race Radio]

1990 3rd in baby giro
1991 2nd in baby giro
1992 1st in baby giro

matt rendell hmm okay ....thanks but i'd rather trust people who actually saw him racing as a junior not a guy writing a sensationalist book. the most of the junior races to my knowledge in his area were flat from what i've read so of course he didn't win a lot

a tragic hero. a hero of its times. never to be forgotten, grandissimo marco

Rendell's book is excellent. He actually covers many of Marco's U17 and Jr. races. Talks to his teammates and family. No indication of greatness until he suddenly could climb at 19

 

[Race Radio]

don't those data show his hematocrit was actually comparable with the others?

No, it shows Marco's as the highest of the group during the peak Tour Periods

 

[Eshnar]

No, it shows Marco's as the highest of the group during the peak Tour Periods

Sorry but then I don't understand what the bars actually show. Aren't them the average hematocrit of the riders in a particular period?

 

[jens_attacks]

Rendell's book is excellent. He actually covers many of Marco's U17 and Jr. races. Talks to his teammates and family. No indication of greatness until he suddenly could climb at 19

enjoy yourself:

http://www.ciclomuseo-bartali.it/museociclismo/articoli/articolo.php?id=1232

and no, both his mother and father, friends have stories how marco was always flying on the climbs, weak on the flat though

and remember '89 is before jet fuel anyway.
and i think you don't read right that table, he was at the top but so was the top ten(ok more like top 100) of any of those grand tours

 

[Race Radio]

enjoy yourself:

http://www.ciclomuseo-bartali.it/museociclismo/articoli/articolo.php?id=1232

and no, both his mother and father, friends have stories how marco was always flying on the climbs, weak on the flat though

and remember '89 is before jet fuel anyway.
and i think you don't read right that table, he was at the top but so was the top ten(ok more like top 100) of any of those grand tours

Thanks for proving my point. He wins 2 races in 89 then is on the podium of the baby Giro in 90.

I am reading it correctly. Pantani pushed his Hct crazy high. His base was 40.7% and he often was in the 57-64% range. It was not just the Ferrara study but also twice measured close to 60% in Hospital test

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html

40.7% to 64% is massive. Not many riders willing to take that risk and live to tell about it

 

[Eshnar]

Thanks for proving my point. He wins 2 races in 89 then is on the podium of the baby Giro in 90.

I am reading it correctly. Pantani pushed his Hct crazy high. His base was 40.7% and he often was in the 57-64% range. It was not just the Ferrara study but also twice measured close to 60% in Hospital test

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html

40.7% to 64% is massive. Not many riders willing to take that risk and live to tell about it

No one noticed how you selectively ignored the first part of the link, as well as my question...

 

[thehog]

40.7% to 64% is massive. Not many riders willing to take that risk and live to tell about it

But he didn't live to tell about it

 

[SundayRider]

Rendell's book is excellent. He actually covers many of Marco's U17 and Jr. races. Talks to his teammates and family. No indication of greatness until he suddenly could climb at 19

Yep pretty much all of his career built on dope.

 

[The Hitch]

Rr did pantani work with brunyeel? If not how could he have doped considering you said current teams are clean because they don't work with Ferrari and brunyeel?

 

[Race Radio]

No one noticed how you selectively ignored the first part of the link, as well as my question...

You appear to not have noticed I answered your question provided a link to explain the numbers

 

[Eshnar]

You appear to not have noticed I answered your question provided a link to explain the numbers

the article doesn't answer at all actually. It only says that all these riders, including Pantani, had enormous fluctuation in hematocrit across the season. Shocking (not), but not the answer to my question. And btw that article gives some evidence about the fact Pantani wasn't the only one doping hard. Which you seem to deny, so I expect you to provide a better evidence.

And for the early career of Pantani, why don't you mention the fact that he won races pretty much every year since he was 14?

 

[roundabout]

Did Pantani stop doping after 1999?

Or was it the 2000 Tour?

I keep forgetting these things.

 

[Taxus4a]

enjoy yourself:

http://www.ciclomuseo-bartali.it/museociclismo/articoli/articolo.php?id=1232

and no, both his mother and father, friends have stories how marco was always flying on the climbs, weak on the flat though

Flying compare to?

Of course he was talented, but the talented you can be with 40 % htc. with 55 %, he was flying.

We dont know how he would have been with his normal htc...maybe even not wining Rui Costa at TdS.

I found impossible how he could have won with that natural htc to people as the colombians or others with natural high htc?, even when there are a lot of factors to consider.

Pantani is a reference and it is the most espectacular rider I ever seen. I was really a fan as everybody.
I predicted in the Pirynees that he could won that flat Tour to Ulle been 10 minutes behind... but, when I look back to that and when I know more things, more out on earth looks to me...Was he better than all those dopers he faced... probably, but who knows...

He was the best climber of his generation with the real rules...

 

[thehog]

Did Pantani stop doping after 1999?

Or was it the 2000 Tour?

I keep forgetting these things.

Race Radio's plagiarism comes from here (via a Dutch forum):

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/06/drugs-work-but-by-how-much-look-at.html

Good old Science of Sport. The ones who said Lance was clean. Once.

 

[roundabout]

So what?

Here is a guy who went from crushing dopers to being an also-ran in about a year. And all that despite buying enough EPO from Fuentes to open his own pharmacy.

Sorry, but I don't buy the level playing field bull**** regardless of how aggressive he raced or how tragic his story was.

 

[Eshnar]

So what?

Here is a guy who went from crushing dopers to being an also-ran in about a year. And all that despite buying enough EPO from Fuentes to open his own pharmacy.

depression does wonders... he wasn't even training properly.

Look, I don't actually have an opinion about the level playing field, it can be true or not, but if you guys're gonna say Pantani was winning only by "superior doping", as he had no talent, at least I expect some interesting evidence.

 

[thehog]

Race Radio's plagiarism comes from here (via a Dutch forum):

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/06/drugs-work-but-by-how-much-look-at.html

Good old Science of Sport. The ones who said Lance was clean. Once.

The graph below is a rough summary of the information from Rendell's book

Rough summary?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Thanks for proving my point. He wins 2 races in 89 then is on the podium of the baby Giro in 90.

I am reading it correctly. Pantani pushed his Hct crazy high. His base was 40.7% and he often was in the 57-64% range. It was not just the Ferrara study but also twice measured close to 60% in Hospital test

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html

40.7% to 64% is massive. Not many riders willing to take that risk and live to tell about it

You have a strange way of looking at that article RR:

''Si potrebbe riscrivere la storia di molte discipline a scorrere le date dei test e a confrontarle con quelle delle gare disputate dagli atleti. Anche qui nomi "pesanti", primo fra tutti quello di Marco Pantani. E anche per lui l' inspiegabile (almeno dal punto di vista fisiologico) altalena di valori. Il file "dblab" raccoglie esami relativi alle stagioni '93, ' 94 e '95. All'inizio Pantani non è che un semplice gregario di Chiappucci, anche se con buone doti per la salita e una propensione per le corse a tappe testimoniata dalla vittoria al Giro d' Italia Baby. Nel '93 sono solo due i piazzamenti fra i primi cinque e in corse assolutamente secondarie: alla settimana Siciliana e al Giro del Trentino. Ma il ' 94 segna l'esplosione: e si cominciano a registrare i primi sbalzi nell'ematocrito: da 40,7% il 16 marzo, a ben 54,5% il 23 maggio in pieno Giro d'Italia. E' il Giro di Berzin (in rosa dalla quarta tappa fino alla fine, anche lui presente nel file dei test con valori abnormi) e siamo al preludio delle montagne da cui uscirà la rivelazione Pantani. Vincerà infatti il 4 giugno a Merano e il giorno dopo all'Aprica staccando tutti sul Mortirolo. Sullo "slancio", l'8 giugno, centrerà pure un terzo posto in una cronometro, non esattamente la sua specialità. Il 13 giugno, giorno dopo la fine del Giro i suoi valori sono attorno al 58%, più o meno come il 27 luglio, alla fine del Tour (57,4%).

Con l'assenza degli sforzi dovuti alle gare l'ematocrito tende a salire, spiegano i tecnici. Pantani a quel Tour è terzo all'Hautacam (vittoria di Leblanc, che allora militava nella Festina, quella dello scandalo doping del '98); è secondo il 15 a Luz Ardiden (vittoria di Virenque, sempre un "Festina"), quinto all'Alpe d'Huez; cade, resta staccato e risale fino al terzo posto a Val Thorens e alla fine è terzo sul podio della Grande boucle. Nel '95 a marzo i suoi valori sono attorno al 45%, ma il Pirata dovrà rinunciare al Giro per via dell'incidente in allenamento a fine giugno, però in vista del Tour i suoi valori salgono ancora: 56%. Vincerà all'Alpe d' Huez e a Guzet Neige. Il 18 ottobre, poi, l'incidente nella Milano-Torino e i valori sballati (60%) registrati al ricovero in ospedale. Insomma una variazione statisticamente pari al 41%, qualcosa di assolutamente inspiegabile dal punto di vista fisiologico. "La media della variabilità fisiologica - dicono gli esperti, non supera il 10%, compreso il possibile errore di taratura della macchina (1%-1,5% per i laboratori degni di questo nome). Ma nel file "dblab" sono registrate variazioni ancora più ampie per altri atleti.''

Where is the 64%? Or was that in Colombia?

Ah, it comes from the Tucker boys, thanks hog, good post.

But, back to the initial stuff about Costa being 2 minutes slower than Pantani, it really says nothing.

 

[roundabout]

depression does wonders... he wasn't even training properly.

Look, I don't actually have an opinion about the level playing field, it can be true or not, but if you guys're gonna say Pantani was winning only by "superior doping", as he had no talent, at least I expect some interesting evidence.

Where did I say anything about Pantani having no talent?

Must be a lot to be depressed about. That's why he spent so much money at Fuentes even though it was his "talent" that made the difference in the 90's.