Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[JRTinMA]

Ferrari is a hematologist - Leinders would not even be close to him, which is why most Rabobank guys went to Humanplasma.
But doping teams need a needle man to assist and also for the day to day stuff, USPS had DelMoral, Rabo/sky had Leinders.

I'm not sure its rocket science, lots of guys successfully doped on their own with only a few noted failures. I guess its clinic tradition to to rate good dopers and bad dopers, may as well apply that to docs too.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What about Moncoutie?

ManCartier is as clean as the baby's A$$.

 

[webbie146]

I'm not sure its rocket science, lots of guys successfully doped on their own with only a few noted failures. I guess its clinic tradition to to rate good dopers and bad dopers, may as well apply that to docs too.

It is in fact rocket science. Look at the dope LA took, it was used by the whole peleton yet the riders assisted by Ferrari owned everyone. Everyone can take dope but to get the absolute maximum profit out of it you need someone with a lot of knowledge. Ferrari can provide that.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not sure its rocket science, lots of guys successfully doped on their own with only a few noted failures. I guess its clinic tradition to to rate good dopers and bad dopers, may as well apply that to docs too.

I am sure you are correct - no difference between doping by yourself and having a Doctor run the program.
Wasn't Lance very generous then to exclusively retain Ferrari and give him over a million dollars for something of no real benefit. What a guy.

 

[JRTinMA]

I am sure you are correct - no difference between doping by yourself and having a Doctor run the program.
Wasn't Lance very generous then to exclusively retain Ferrari and give him over a million dollars for something of no real benefit. What a guy.

Excellent straw man. Besides RR has stated he was employed by USPS, of course he was exclusive.

Ferrari has a long list of failed cyclists as clients, were they just lazy?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

ManCartier is as clean as the baby's A$$.

I would request RR to expand on the statement he made a few moons ago.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Excellent straw man. Besides RR has stated he was employed by USPS, of course he was exclusive.

Ferrari has a long list of failed cyclists as clients, were they just lazy?

You call strawman - while introducing what someone else said?

Ferrari was paid by Lance.
Please explain why LA paid Ferrari so much money as well as insuring that he did not look after other GT contenders?

(Don't forget to include how you are not a fan of LA, and you do not support him)

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

"Alright, Geert blood doped top riders for a decade, but he never ran his own doping clinic! It's not like he's the worst doping doctor ever!"

This sounds like an argument an Armstrong fanboy came up with.

Ferrari is a hematologist - Leinders would not even be close to him, which is why most Rabobank guys went to Humanplasma.
But doping teams need a needle man to assist and also for the day to day stuff, USPS had DelMoral, Rabo/sky had Leinders.

That's nonsense. Riders went to HP to freeze blood. It has nothing to do with Geert's know-how as a doping doc.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

@TheRaceRadio
Problem w/ Leinders is he left Rabo in anger because he disagreed with new, clean, direction. Doesn't sound like a guy who embraces change

What made you change your mind and realize that GL has seen the light? Did you look Richie P in the eye when he assured you he's pan y agua?

 

[JRTinMA]

You call strawman - while introducing what someone else said?

Ferrari was paid by Lance.
Please explain why LA paid Ferrari so much money as well as insuring that he did not look after other GT contenders?

(Don't forget to include how you are not a fan of LA, and you do not support him)

It was a straw man, plain and simple. RR has stated in this thread that Ferrari was employed by USPS, if you have issue with that take it up with him. Can you link to somebody with actual knowledge confirming the exclusivity, we can discuss that then, discussing another of your ad hominem arguments is not productive. (VORTEX)

LA on a few occasions provided some exciting racing and I am a fan of that. I have only ever been a fan of one cyclist but I like many.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It was a straw man, plain and simple. RR has stated in this thread that Ferrari was employed by USPS, if you have issue with that take it up with him. Can you link to somebody with actual knowledge confirming the exclusivity, we can discuss that then, discussing another of your ad hominem arguments is not productive. (VORTEX)

LA on a few occasions provided some exciting racing and I am a fan of that. I have only ever been a fan of one cyclist but I like many.

RR is wrong to say that - why would I take it up with him? He is wrong, end of.
And even if I did he is not going to do yours and TheHog tactic of deflection, denial and ad hominen.

Ferrari was paid over a million dollars - if one can dope as well alone, please explain why he was paid so much?

 

[Merckx index]

Funny, here I am explaining how Pantani, Riis, and Ullrich are chemical inventions, not talking about wonderboy.

What you have explained, at least for Pantani and Riis, is that their success was largely the result of a willingness to jack up their HT higher than most other riders dared to, or perhaps knew how to. I can buy that. As I said before, no one can seriously argue that riders today are raising their HT to anything close to what was possible in the days before the HT limit, let alone before the EPO test and biopassport. The much more interesting and difficult comparison is with the early part of this century, the Armstrong years.

In any case, however, this does not make Pantani and Riis super-responders, nor is it even clear that they needed a special doctor to get these high HTs. Maybe Ferrari told them how to raise their HT to super levels without killing themselves, or maybe he just told them, drink all the orange juice you want, it won't kill you. In that era, any rider willing to take a large enough dose of EPO could have got his HT that high. As Tyler emphasized in his book, one of the main duties of a good doping doc is to show the rider how to dope without getting caught. That wasn't an issue prior to the 50% limit, and not much of an issue until the EPO test.

Of course, we know some other riders did raise their HTs very high, and died, but was that because they lacked Ferrari's special knowledge, or were they just unlucky, perhaps having a physiology that did not permit such high levels? We don't know. It would be very interesting to hear MF comment on those riders who died, why he thinks it happened when Pantani and Riis were getting up to comparable if not greater levels. They might have been super-responders in the limited sense that they had a physiological type that permitted such high levels, but this is speculation.

Wrt, Ulle, though, I haven't seen any evidence of HT in the upper 50s, and of course, much of his career was raced after the limit was in place, anyway. So other than the unsupported dense muscle theory, his main advantage would seem to have been whatever extra benefits he could have obtained from having a naturally low HT. One of the unintended side effects of the 50% limit was that it gave riders with a naturally low HT a greater relative advantage.

As for Moncoutie, the JV quote upthread makes it clear that JV, at least, thinks Moncoutie is clean. JV's point is not that someone everyone thinks is clean is doping, but that someone who really is clean (in his opinion) can have dodgy passport values. Ergo, have to be careful about drawing a connection between those values and doping.

 

[JRTinMA]

RR is wrong to say that - why would I take it up with him? He is wrong, end of.
And even if I did he is not going to do yours and TheHog tactic of deflection, denial and ad hominen.

Ferrari was paid over a million dollars - if one can dope as well alone, please explain why he was paid so much?

Doping and training plans for 7 TDF wins.

Please provide the exclusivity link, or is this one of yours and RR deflection tactics, like the Moncoutié comment and ad hominem?

 

[thehog]

@TheRaceRadio
Problem w/ Leinders is he left Rabo in anger because he disagreed with new, clean, direction. Doesn't sound like a guy who embraces change

What made you change your mind and realize that GL has seen the light? Did you look Richie P in the eye when he assured you he's pan y agua?

A doctor which administered doing is worse than Ferrari.

Ferrari didn't get his hands dirty post 2004.

Whereas as Leinders was still injecting riders himself in 2007-8.

Ferrari is a consultant.

I see Leinders as worse.

Ferrari is a master but Leinders is pure evil.

He injected cyclists as young as 20 with EPO - but he's the good doping Doctor?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Doping and training plans for 7 TDF wins.

So LA paid him $1million+ for doping & training plans, eh?
Which you suggest LA could have done the doping himself and the training could have been done by Comical Chris.

Please provide the exclusivity link, or is this one of yours and RR deflection tactics, like the Moncoutié comment and ad hominem?

I am not RR - if you have a problem with what they say, take it up with them.
The exclusivity was mentioned in From Lance To Landis.
If you wish to counter the argument can you name the top GT riders Ferrari was working with between 99 and 05?

 

[JRTinMA]

So LA paid him $1million+ for doping & training plans, eh?
Which you suggest LA could have done the doping himself and the training could have been done by Comical Chris.


I am not RR - if you have a problem with what they say, take it up with them.
The exclusivity was mentioned in From Lance To Landis.
If you wish to counter the argument can you name the top GT riders Ferrari was working with between 99 and 05?

Another straw man I see, vortex alert.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Another straw man I see, vortex alert.

That's your answer? Deflection noted.

 

[Taxus4a]

I havent read everything, even I don't understand everything , but I read a lot about doctor Leinders.

Well, there are not doper doctor or not dopers doctors, there are era in cycling and antidoping in cycling, so, in an era where EPO was dominant, a doctor is going to give EPO, asked for the team or the riders, maybe no to everybody, but he is going to do it...and if the era is different, the same doctor is not going to do it. It is that simple.

Freire said he did not see anything strange in Leinders, but becouse maybe never need it to win, becouse his talent. He was a one day rider, it is different.

That doesnt mean Leinders didnt dope in Rabobank, but Thomas said doping finished there in 2008. There were some misundestanding with the date, but that is what he said.

 

[gooner]

A doctor which administered doing is worse than Ferrari.

Ferrari didn't get his hands dirty post 2004.

Whereas as Leinders was still injecting riders himself in 2007-8.

Ferrari is a consultant.

I see Leinders as worse.

Ferrari is a master but Leinders is pure evil.

He injected cyclists as young as 20 with EPO - but he's the good doping Doctor?

Leinders has been to known to dope riders at Rabobank. Ferrari has been known to have influence on many riders across other teams. Big difference.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Leinders has been to known to dope riders at Rabobank. Ferrari has been known to have influence on many riders across other teams. Big difference.

Yes, Ferrari dopes riders from multiple teams while Leinders only dopes the riders of the team that employs him. Most recently it was Sky.

 

[thehog]

Leinders has been to known to dope riders at Rabobank. Ferrari has been known to have influence on many riders across other teams. Big difference.

Huh?

Big difference how?

They both ran doping program's.

But injected cyclists with dope.

Leinders more recently.

Leinders introduced young men to doping. He injected them himself.

Leinders is pure evil. He's a pusher. But that's ok?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Yes, Ferrari dopes riders from multiple teams while Leinders only dopes the riders of the team that employs him. Most recently it was Sky.

what I wanna know is this: who makes the most money? Leinders Dope To Get Fast Inc or Ferrari Juicing To The Top Ltd.

 

[thehog]

what I wanna know is this: who makes the most money? Leinders Dope To Get Fast Inc or Ferrari Juicing To The Top Ltd.

Ask Thomas Dekker.

He'll tell you, money means nothing.

His life of doping and subsequent downward spiral was because of Leinders.

Nice guy Leinders. Sticking a needle full of sludge into a young mans bloodstream.

Charming.

 

[gooner]

Huh?

Big difference how?

They both ran doping program's.

But injected cyclists with dope.

Leinders more recently.

Leinders introduced young men to doping. He injected them himself.

Leinders is pure evil. He's a pusher. But that's ok?

I didn't imply anywhere it was near OK. Both did doping programmes but Ferrari's was on a much, much wider scale and varied across riders from different teams. If Leinders was as good as him why wasn't his influence more widespread outside Rabobank? From my reading I would put Leinders more the Del Moral figure at Rabobank.

 

[hiero2]

Ask Thomas Dekker.

He'll tell you, money means nothing.

His life of doping and subsequent downward spiral was because of Leinders.

Nice guy Leinders. Sticking a needle full of sludge into a young mans bloodstream.

Charming.

As I read the thread - it occurs to me that you, hog, and others are conflating comments about Leinders' skill level with Leinders' morality - or your view of their morality.

Lets keep different topics separate. Leinders skill level or skill set, and the relative morality of any of the aforementioned players. Mixing them together is misdirecting the conversation.