Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[Race Radio]

Yes Leinders was the friendly doping doctor who didn't know what he was doing

He was good enough for Chicken Rasmussen to smash up the 2007.

Trying to downplay him is foolhardy. Especially when you pass yourself off as an insider.

Trying to compare him to Ferrari is foolish, especially when you try to pass yourself off as an insider.

You are welcome to pretend that everyone who doped, helped riders dope, or bought dope is a moral equivalent, Most will not agree with you. I have clearly wrote that hiring linders was a mistake. Even if he is a nice guy he should be out of the sport. That does not make him Ferrari, Fuentes, or even del Moral

 

[Matt_W]

Lets keep different topics separate.

And maybe take them to a thread where they're on topic? It seems a shame to disrupt the power estimates thread with yet another lengthy round of "how evil are cycling doctors?"

Just a thought from a lurker.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

And maybe take them to a thread where they're on topic? It seems a shame to disrupt the power estimates thread with yet another lengthy round of "how evil are cycling doctors?"

Just a thought from a lurker.

Nahh .... sometimes its "who's got the bigger and longer chlong"

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Trying to compare him to Ferrari is foolish, especially when you try to pass yourself off as an insider.

You are welcome to pretend that everyone who doped, helped riders dope, or bought dope is a moral equivalent, Most will not agree with you. I have clearly wrote that hiring linders was a mistake. Even if he is a nice guy he should be out of the sport. That does not make him Ferrari, Fuentes, or even del Moral

No, you don't get it,
Ferrari doped bad people - but Leinders doped young men... young men, or something like that....
So that doping doctor is worse than the other doping doctor.

 

[thehog]

Trying to compare him to Ferrari is foolish, especially when you try to pass yourself off as an insider.

You are welcome to pretend that everyone who doped, helped riders dope, or bought dope is a moral equivalent, Most will not agree with you. I have clearly wrote that hiring linders was a mistake. Even if he is a nice guy he should be out of the sport. That does not make him Ferrari, Fuentes, or even del Moral

Doping Doctors come in all shapes and sizes. Trying to pretend there is some moral levelling in the world of dope is stupid. It's like saying Charles Manaon wasn't all that bad because he wasn't as bad as Ted Bundy!

Whether Leinders is like Fuentes and Ferrari is of little relevance.

He still stuck a big needle in young men's muscles and injected it with dope.

You can try to pretend Leinders is a "nice guy" but that's hardly the issue.

Leinders is evil. And last time I checked he's not admitted or confessed to the sins of what he did.

At least Fuentes said he was assisting with the "health" of the riders.

But yeah. Leinders is cool!

I wouldn't let my son go near a guy like Leinders.

 

[BrentonOfTheNorth]

Maybe Pantani's advantage was in part the 50% limit... Festina for example wouldn't go beyond 50% before or after the limit... if he had the (suitcase of) 'courage' to take it to 60% and saline dilute before each test while others did not, it would make a big difference. I know 20% more red blood cells doesn't mean a 20% performance increase but even 5% means a few minutes on Mont Ventoux.

did he win the 2000 Tour? No, he just won a stage. Hardly '98-'99 level. Are all the people who won a stage against Armstrong to be considered superior dopers than him?

Didn't Armstrong try to race against him on that stage? After the Ventoux controversy. I don't remember if it was from one of his books, but I thought Armstrong was amazed and consulted Ferrari as to "how the hell" Pantani rode so well that day. When else was Armstrong beat like that in the mountains, besides bonking in the 1999 Pyrennes and the 2000 Morzine stage?

 

[Taxus4a]

Leinders more recently.

I wouldnt be that sure, there is Padua over there...but maybe.

Leinders is a normal doctor, for sure a good doctor, who doped as well, very normal in doping if you compared with my country´s doctors, yes, we have very good doctors, for health ( I am proud on it) and for doping as well, as Fuentes (and his team), Losa, Del Moral, Celaya (this is more similar to Leinders), Maynar,...

I am quite surprising here looking at people talking Leinders that way...

If he was a magical doctor with top secrets, why SKy it is still this year as strong as in 2013, is it still Leinders in the shadow?

It is going to be always a theory, so, it is stupid for me to ask, I suppose...

 

[Eshnar]

Maybe Pantani's advantage was in part the 50% limit... Festina for example wouldn't go beyond 50% before or after the limit... if he had the (suitcase of) 'courage' to take it to 60% and saline dilute before each test while others did not, it would make a big difference. I know 20% more red blood cells doesn't mean a 20% performance increase but even 5% means a few minutes on Mont Ventoux.



Didn't Armstrong try to race against him on that stage? After the Ventoux controversy. I don't remember if it was from one of his books, but I thought Armstrong was amazed and consulted Ferrari as to "how the hell" Pantani rode so well that day. When else was Armstrong beat like that in the mountains, besides bonking in the 1999 Pyrennes and the 2000 Morzine stage?

never, in the tdf that is. He definitely tried to race against him that day, and he lost, no gifting. But he lost by 51", in a race where Pantani was already miles behind, miles that he had lost in the Pyrenees. He just had a very good day, coupled to Armstrong's declaration that hurt him. The next day he tried to attack early and blew up completely.

Anyway guys, let's try to get back on topic, we're going too far. If you need to go on just move to the proper thread.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I would request RR to expand on the statement he made a few moons ago.

I missed the statement. RR said he was clean and clear or on the Cofidis program?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

How about some more climbing times info for the Power data estimates for the climbing stages thread.....

Can the "my doping doctor's worse than your doping doctor" discussion go elsewhere please.

 

[del1962]

Maybe Pantani's advantage was in part the 50% limit... Festina for example wouldn't go beyond 50% before or after the limit... if he had the (suitcase of) 'courage' to take it to 60% and saline dilute before each test while others did not, it would make a big difference. I know 20% more red blood cells doesn't mean a 20% performance increase but even 5% means a few minutes on Mont Ventoux.



Didn't Armstrong try to race against him on that stage? After the Ventoux controversy. I don't remember if it was from one of his books, but I thought Armstrong was amazed and consulted Ferrari as to "how the hell" Pantani rode so well that day. When else was Armstrong beat like that in the mountains, besides bonking in the 1999 Pyrennes and the 2000 Morzine stage?

Pantani was doing high levels after everyone else had toned down to under 50%, (I think he even switch his sample with a teammate not to get kicked out of a race), the man was as big a fraud as Armstrong.

 

[hrotha]

I missed the statement. RR said he was clean and clear or on the Cofidis program?

Someone mentioned Moncoutié as the most likely active/recently retired successful rider to have been clean. RR just said "Unfortunately... no". He's been asked to elaborate several times, but he hasn't so much as acknowledged those requests.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Someone mentioned Moncoutié as the most likely active/recently retired successful rider to have been clean. RR just said "Unfortunately... no". He's been asked to elaborate several times, but he hasn't so much as acknowledged those requests.

It's super obvious he got it from JV.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1265769&postcount=1434

 

[hrotha]

It's super obvious he got it from JV.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1265769&postcount=1434

Well that would be silly. What kind of insider gets his info from a forum post everyone read, and then ignores the "And so do I" bit?

It has to be something else.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Pantani was doing high levels after everyone else had toned down to under 50%, (I think he even switch his sample with a teammate not to get kicked out of a race), the man was as big a fraud as Armstrong.

agree, a sad fraud case. Paid the ultimate price for doping.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Someone mentioned Moncoutié as the most likely active/recently retired successful rider to have been clean. RR just said "Unfortunately... no". He's been asked to elaborate several times, but he hasn't so much as acknowledged those requests.

Oh ok.

Well I think that a while back on this board I got into it with a bunch of people, about MANcartier being on Cofidis and that I had the opinion that he probably would have been doping during that time. Right or Wrong the team had a problem.

No idea what type of info RR would have.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Oh ok.

Well I think that a while back on this board I got into it with a bunch of people, about MANcartier being on Cofidis and that I had the opinion that he probably would have been doping during that time. Right or Wrong the team had a problem.

No idea what type of info RR would have.

Yes, it was in this thread Mr glenn http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13082&highlight=moncoutie

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Pantani was doing high levels after everyone else had toned down to under 50%, (I think he even switch his sample with a teammate not to get kicked out of a race), the man was as big a fraud as Armstrong.

Yeah, thats why Geert Leinders gave saline to his riders at Rabobank 1997 to get lower than the 50% rule. Only Leinders and Rempi knew of this technique.

Nice story though.

On the others: watch Tonkov Giro 1998, Zulle the same. Yep, everyone toned down except for Pantani.

If Zulle hadnt f - up his dope he would have won that Giro with ease. So strong.
How far was he ahead? Six minutes before he cracked?

That Giro 1998 TT was funny, wasnt it Squinzi who complained? Yeah, he is a real trustworthy fellow. He had only four riders in the top 18 that Giro.

 

[roundabout]

Yes, but check out the difference between Mercatone Garzelli and Mapei Garzelli a few years later. Poor guy had to use probenecid to be competitive.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Yes, it was in this thread Mr glenn http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13082&highlight=moncoutie

Thanks for the link Zam_O

I should probably keep my opinions to myself with this matter of the Cofidis cyclist.

Anyhow I noticed that GarminConnect keeps the Pro-teams or a few of them anyhow activities on the site. Trouble is they have all types of data except the power data. I wonder why they don't put that up?

It would have been interesting to note Talansky's power in the dauphine-libere. All the other info is there such as weather, rpm, speed.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Well that would be silly. What kind of insider gets his info from a forum post everyone read, and then ignores the "And so do I" bit?

It has to be something else.

I don't think he got it from a forum post by JV, I think he got it from a private conversation with JV.

 

[Le breton]

It's super obvious he got it from JV.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1265769&postcount=1434

In that link Jonathan Vaughters says that the racer we all think is clean - presumably Moncoutié - has terrible blood passport values. He does not make any inference that they would be due to blood doping.

On the contrary, he seems to be taking said racer as an example of how wrong you could be if you just took his parameters at face value without due allowance for the circumstances of the testing.

If my interpretation is wrong, can somebody explain why?

Now, you are also saying that RR interpreted that Vaughters statement completely differently to mean that the racer in question is a blood doper.

Comments welcome.

 

[Le breton]

I don't think he got it from a forum post by JV, I think he got it from a private conversation with JV.

The problem in that point of view is that all the performances by Moncoutié in the last 15 years are consistent with expectations from a cyclist with a VO2 max approaching, not exceeding, 90 ml/mn.kg who does not use blood doping.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

In that link Jonathan Vaughters says that the racer we all think is clean - presumably Moncoutié - has terrible blood passport values. He does not make any inference that they would be due to blood doping.

On the contrary, he seems to be taking said racer as an example of how wrong you could be if you just took his parameters at face value without due allowance for the circumstances of the testing.

If my interpretation is wrong, can somebody explain why?

Now, you are also saying that RR interpreted that Vaughters statement completely differently to mean that the racer in question is a blood doper.

Comments welcome.

I believe the rider in question is most certainly Moncoutié. I believe JV told RR that DM has very suspicious blood values leading RR to conclude that DM was a doper.

The problem in that point of view is that all the performances by Moncoutié in the last 15 years are consistent with expectations from a cyclist with a VO2 max approaching, not exceeding, 90 ml/mn.kg who does not use blood doping.

Take it up with RR.

 

[Le breton]

I believe the rider in question is most certainly Moncoutié. I believe JV told RR that DM has very suspicious blood values leading RR to conclude that DM was a doper.



Take it up with RR.

Hi RaceRadio, can you comment please ?