Pre-EPO/blood doping era drugs

[Tonton]

If EPO was in use in the DDR, do you think it was in use in other eastern bloc states?

My biggest question about it use is that the DDR was not exactly setting men's distance running alight, look at Seoul (88) 5k and 10k

Still, with 102 total medals, DDR was only second to the USSR, way ahead of the USA, and won more than twice as many medals as the much more populated West Germany. DDR won most throwing events, loaded its basket with rowing and swimming. To me, the list of medals won by the DDR seems to indicate steroids/hormones rather than EPO, but I could be wrong. BTW, in cycling, DDR won: Team TT, road race, 1K track. As for medium-long distance running, I would argue that countries whose peoples' body type is shorter/slender (East Africa, Maghreb...) tend to dominate, which is not your "typical" German body type. If the DDR couldn't manufacture a Big Mig and win in those disciplines, it may confirm that EPO was not used...yet.

 

[del1962]

Still, with 102 total medals, DDR was only second to the USSR, way ahead of the USA, and won more than twice as many medals as the much more populated West Germany. DDR won most throwing events, loaded its basket with rowing and swimming. To me, the list of medals won by the DDR seems to indicate steroids/hormones rather than EPO, but I could be wrong. BTW, in cycling, DDR won: Team TT, road race, 1K track. As for medium-long distance running, I would argue that countries whose peoples' body type is shorter/slender (East Africa, Maghreb...) tend to dominate, which is not your "typical" German body type. If the DDR couldn't manufacture a Big Mig and win in those disciplines, it may confirm that EPO was not used...yet.

On cycling, was this before pro cyclists where allowed in the Olympics, so it is no surprise that the Eastern Bloc countries dominated, whereas in athletics the western amateurs where basically professionals.

Personally I think the eastern block countries doping was steroids based, I think there was a tendency to over estimate the technological advances of the eastern bloc (see the performance of their weapons in the first gulf war).

The body type argument would have more weight if the field was completely full of east Africans / Mahgreb.., but many western European nations where represented (France had two as opposed to one DDR athlete in final), Italy had a medalist in the 10k (was Conconi still working with Italian Athletes at the time?)

 

[lllludo]

If EPO was in use in the DDR, do you think it was in use in other eastern bloc states?

Not necessarily. There was a competition between the east block countries.
I don't know whether the DDR and USSR were sharing doping techs for example

My biggest question about it use is that the DDR was not exactly setting men's distance running alight, look at Seoul (88) 5k and 10k

The DDR had different doping programs for each disciplines. They were testing new techniques on a few athletes within one discipline. If the dope was proven efficient then they were generalizing it to other disciplines. That's what they did with oral turinabol who was first tested on swimmers and then generalized to other disciplines...

Imo impossible to rule to rule out the EPO for DDR cyclists in Seoul only based on the results in athletics.
In 1987 the DDR road cyclists were good, in 1988 they were archi-dominant...

 

[D-Queued]

Not necessarily. There was a competition between the east block countries.
I don't know whether the DDR and USSR were sharing doping techs for example


The DDR had different doping programs for each disciplines. They were testing new techniques on a few athletes within one discipline. If the dope was proven efficient then they were generalizing it to other disciplines. That's what they did with oral turinabol who was first tested on swimmers and then generalized to other disciplines...

Imo impossible to rule to rule out the EPO for DDR cyclists in Seoul only based on the results in athletics.
In 1987 the DDR road cyclists were good, in 1988 they were archi-dominant...

It is impossible to prove a nullity.

A well-coordinated country-wide steroid program would have been good enough to dominate sport at that time. The results prove it. All the evidence we have, including extensive testimony from scores of participants, supports it.

The DDR was perfectly positioned for it within the Eastern Bloc, and it was the 1972 Olympics that really got is going (i.e. the motivation to steal the show from West Germany). Steroids were easily obtained and cheap.

EPO use was almost impossible, due to availability, and extremely unlikely.

It wasn't needed, and there is no evidence of it.

But, as noted, it is impossible to prove a nullity.

Dave.

 

[Tonton]

On cycling, was this before pro cyclists where allowed in the Olympics, so it is no surprise that the Eastern Bloc countries dominated, whereas in athletics the western amateurs where basically professionals.

Personally I think the eastern block countries doping was steroids based, I think there was a tendency to over estimate the technological advances of the eastern bloc (see the performance of their weapons in the first gulf war).

The body type argument would have more weight if the field was completely full of east Africans / Mahgreb.., but many western European nations where represented (France had two as opposed to one DDR athlete in final), Italy had a medalist in the 10k (was Conconi still working with Italian Athletes at the time?)

Yes it was before pros were allowed, For the body type argument, it's true that DDR got medals I men 5K I think and woman Marathon. Italians, like Portuguese (i.e. Rosa Motta) have (in general) smaller build than Germans and have been consistently producing champion runners. he Germans don't. Not too sure about what you wrote about the French: outside of Judo and Fencing, they did little. That's when the French didn't dope

Agree with the overstating point. DDR were steroids (so was Flo-Jo, Ben Riis-Johnson).

Was Conconi involved? I don't know, but I'd like to know...

 

[Akuryo]

Still, with 102 total medals, DDR was only second to the USSR, way ahead of the USA, and won more than twice as many medals as the much more populated West Germany. DDR won most throwing events, loaded its basket with rowing and swimming. To me, the list of medals won by the DDR seems to indicate steroids/hormones rather than EPO, but I could be wrong. BTW, in cycling, DDR won: Team TT, road race, 1K track. As for medium-long distance running, I would argue that countries whose peoples' body type is shorter/slender (East Africa, Maghreb...) tend to dominate, which is not your "typical" German body type. If the DDR couldn't manufacture a Big Mig and win in those disciplines, it may confirm that EPO was not used...yet.

Well, one could also argue that the kids in the DDR were "drilled" to be the best in their sport. Like table tennis today in China. In the BRD the kids just did sports and if they were any good, they made their hobby to their job. Simple as that.

 

[lllludo]

I agree in the 70s a strong steroïd doping program was enough to dominate the sport and that was in place in the DDR at that time.
But in the 80s new doping techniques have emerged and especially blood doping for endurance sports, transfusion etc... probably more efficient than steroids only for endurance.
Multiple sources confirm that the DDR doping program was working on developing new blood doping techniques on top of the existing steroïd program. If you translate this article :
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite...80QSR-1.378004

bad translation here but quite understandable...

Since 1982, it became clear that especially in the field of men's long-standing pre-calculated growth rates could not be met, so the way to the "number one" was endangered in world sport. No wonder, because the GDR had enormous growth simply extrapolated that had been raised by the commencing systematic doping. It was not known that it would come to a saturation curve in the pills and injections could no longer help. In this crisis situation, the price was tightened. In research and training (and resources) was sought to escape the trap of the crash of the medals with the highest use for new ways. SMD chief physician Hoeppner informed his "commanding officer" Major Neudel of the MfS peak in Berlin, that two of the full-time Vice-President of the run of the SED umbrella organization DTSB now have received the permission for blood doping - a last resort, but with mortal danger for the athletes.

A new stage was achieved. As a pioneer of DVFL (National Athletics Association) in 1983 called for the introduction. "Technology" (ie Hoeppner) had the Stasi, however explained, the internationally banned blood doping is not yet ready for use until 1988. For this purpose, one must bring frozen Autologous Blood conspiratorially to the job abroad, thaw there in one of the secret Foreign objects in the GDR team and then out secretly. Whether and how these practices have been used systematically, has not proved by written documents.

 

[D-Queued]

I agree in the 70s a strong steroïd doping program was enough to dominate the sport and that was in place in the DDR at that time.
But in the 80s new doping techniques have emerged and especially blood doping for endurance sports, transfusion etc... probably more efficient than steroids only for endurance.
Multiple sources confirm that the DDR doping program was working on developing new blood doping techniques on top of the existing steroïd program. If you translate this article :
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite...80QSR-1.378004

bad translation here but quite understandable...

...Whether and how these practices have been used systematically, has not proved by written documents

.

i.e. no evidence of use.

To summarize, you are using an allegation of something that they were supposedly thinking about, but where there is no evidence of actual implementation, to assert that something else (i.e. EPO) was being used when we know it was barely, barely even available.

How about this counter-assertion?

If a country ran a doping program as systematic as the East German program today, but utilized solely the techniques and drugs that were used by that program in the 70s and 80s, they could still dominate in the same sports that East Germany did in the 70s and 80s and probably a bunch more.

Dave.

 

[Gavandope]

Willy voet's book with the drugs the riders took pre EPO looked very familiar to a roid doper. For endurance events roids helped mostly with recovery, hence a natural athlete with high ability, testosterone levels, vomax and recovery periods could compete with the dopers.

EPO and blood doping etc was like a tank shell compared to a steroid hand grenade of the past. A game changer and the key part of the drug taking I would like removed from cycling.

 

[Tonton]

Well, one could also argue that the kids in the DDR were "drilled" to be the best in their sport. Like table tennis today in China. In the BRD the kids just did sports and if they were any good, they made their hobby to their job. Simple as that.

I don't disagree with the "kids in the DDR were drilled to be the best in their sport" point, when sports are used as a propaganda tool, a common theme in all totalitarian regimes. It doesn't explain the massive difference between a 16M people DDR beating the 58M people BRD 102-40 though.

 

[Dr. Juice]

Willy voet's book with the drugs the riders took pre EPO looked very familiar to a roid doper. For endurance events roids helped mostly with recovery, hence a natural athlete with high ability, testosterone levels, vomax and recovery periods could compete with the dopers.

EPO and blood doping etc was like a tank shell compared to a steroid hand grenade of the past. A game changer and the key part of the drug taking I would like removed from cycling.

+1

This pretty much nails it.

 

[Tonton]

+1

This pretty much nails it.

+2, with one addition though: roids were also used as off-season muscle building helpers. I remember starting my Junior 2 season in 1986 with guys whose thighs had like doubled in size since Junior 1 and went from top 10-15 to winning everything. Disheartening...you know something is going on, but if you can't prove it, only one option: shut up. Actually another option is to find out what they do that you don't do and do it too. I chose a third option: ride for fun.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I chose a third option: ride for fun.

The right one.

In soccer the same thing happened.

 

[Gavandope]

+2, with one addition though: roids were also used as off-season muscle building helpers. I remember starting my Junior 2 season in 1986 with guys whose thighs had like doubled in size since Junior 1 and went from top 10-15 to winning everything. Disheartening...you know something is going on, but if you can't prove it, only one option: shut up. Actually another option is to find out what they do that you don't do and do it too. I chose a third option: ride for fun.

For sprinters in the off season it would definitely be a benefit, not so sure about gc riders though, all that extra mass they don't need. There was a sprinter who used to train in our gym back in 1990 got juiced up on Sustanon (4x testosterone oil injectable) and deca (nandrolone) in the winter and although he never joined us on the heavy leg sessions with squats with an Olympic bar, his thighs did get a lot larger and we didn't have to take too many 20kg plates off when he joined in on the leg press and extensions. We trained in the basement, all so hard that after the session was over we would climb the steep steps on all fours because we couldn't stand up, our knees were like jelly. On the roids you could murder your body parts every 3 days, whereas 5-6 days training clean.