Pre-EPO/blood doping era drugs

[lllludo]

You think Ferrari (an assistant of Conconi on the 1984 in Moser's 1984 blood doping) would have learned new techniques of the East Germans?

In 1990 Schur and Kummer sign with Chateau d'Ax to help Bugno who was still a customer of Ferrari (out of Chateau d'Ax but now a free-lance doctor).
In 90 Bugno has a break-up year. He wins the fastest Milan-SanRemo in history (helped a big deal by his East-german team mates who covered 50km during the 1st hour) and the Giro (being race leader from day1) and Chiapucci, another famous Ferrari's client, had a break-up year and finish 2nd of Tour de France.

In 1990, as EPOGEN can now be bought in European pharmacies, some famous Ferrari clients improved dramatically their performances.
The drug itself is the most important but the protocol is also a key-point for EPO.
Difficult to imagine a smart guy like Ferrari doping Chateau d'Ax leader and key helpers not having a thorough discussion about blood doping with the East German gregari ...
But I think the link is more obvious with Raab & Ampler at PDM

 

[DirtyWorks]

You think Ferrari (an assistant of Conconi on the 1984 in Moser's 1984 blood doping) would have learned new techniques of the East Germans?

They were doing the research themselves. Everything I've read suggests it was a very highly anticipated PED.

The XC Ski federation banned it the year it was for sale in Europe. No test for it, but a ban at year 1. When a sports federation moves at lightning speed, then it was very well known, probably into most IOC sports.

Let's give that federation a little credit for trying to keep the genie in the bottle and being proactive about protecting the integrity of their sport. The opposite was happening in cycling.

 

[D-Queued]

In the 80's human EPO was already injected by doctors to treat cancer.
Synthetic EPO (EPOGEN) had been developed by AMGEN and was used in multiple trials to gain approval from the authorities. It was approved in the US in 1989.
The East Germans had a doping lab in Kreischa where they worked on top notch doping techniques including blood doping and EPO before the fall of the wall in 1990.
The East Germany (DDR) and Russia clearly dominated the 1988 Seoul Olympic games in cycling as they won half of the medals and all golds except madison.
Did the East Germans use EPO injections (human or synthetic) in Seoul we don't know. It's likely but we are not sure...


Other interesting fact: 1990 fall of the wall: the top east-german riders turn pro.
Olaf Ludwig goes to Panasonic (Peter Post : Netherlands) with Ekimov
Uwe Ampler goes to PDM (Netherlands) and pioneer in the usage of synth EPO usage that started in the team in 1990
Schur and Kummer signeed at Chateau d'Ax where the team doctor is ... Michele Ferrari.
all these guys where re-united at Deutsche Telekom in 1993

Did these guys bring with them advanced East Germans blood doping protocols in already dodgy environments ?
Probable; That would be interesting to know

It is unlikely that EPO was used by the Russians or East Germans in 1988.

Nobody else was using it, yet. So, they didn't need to. The East German doping program was otherwise pretty effective and well proven.

Dave.

 

[lllludo]

They were doing the research themselves. Everything I've read suggests it was a very highly anticipated PED.

In the 80s Ferrari was probably researching on EPO but in Kreischa (DDR) they were already using it on a separate doping stream.
So collaborating with early users from the other stream could only be beneficial to establish a great protocol

In 1990, as shown Kimmage articles about Draaijer, PDM make a shift in their doping policy. They also brought in Ampler and Raab at that time.
PDM fired their doping doc Janssens to bring in Wim Sanders that introduced a new system and buy EPO from local pharmacies as soon as 1990.
Draajier dies. Sanders will be comdemned in 1997. Look at that great 1997 (!) CN archives
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html

 

[DirtyWorks]

In the 80s Ferrari was probably researching on EPO but in Kreischa (DDR) they were already using it on a separate doping stream.
So collaborating with early users from the other stream could only be beneficial to establish a great protocol

In 1990, as shown Kimmage articles about Draaijer, PDM make a shift in their doping policy. They also brought in Ampler and Raab at that time.
PDM fired their doping doc Janssens to bring in Wim Sanders that introduced a new system and buy EPO from local pharmacies as soon as 1990.
Draajier dies. Sanders will be comdemned in 1997. Look at that great 1997 (!) CN archives
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html

Ok, sorry my last post is not clear. I agree with what you are saying. We know at the elite level of athletics there are few boundaries. My point being, my estimation is EPO wasn't a revelation to anyone pursuing doping technology.

Based on what I've read about Conconi's work, the athletes who used Conconi and their later confessions, I believe his group was aggressively pursuing doping technology. Conconi/Ferrari/and more were pursuing blood doping strategies and likely knew something about EPO before introduction in Europe.

Thinking about it now, it was a minor point.

This topic is revived when some old information is posted. Here's my oldest evidence:
http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/science-epo-doping

1977 purified EPO is captured.
1985 EPO gene is cloned
1987 EPO available in Europe.
1988 FIS bans EPO. (no test though)
1989 gets regulatory approval, probably for the U.S.

Was a working EPO was already in production in the DDR prior to these dates? It wouldn't surprise me if it was.

 

[lllludo]

It is unlikely that EPO was used by te Russians or East Germans in 1988.

ah ? you had connections in the Stasi or KGB ?
In the 80's DDR was extremely advanced in blood doping. They even had a state program
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite/article80QSR-1.378004
there are also lots of german documentaries on youtube about blood doping in East Germany.

Nobody else was using it, yet.

Synthetic EPO was produced although in limited quantities, tested and in "public" validation trials in 1988. Before that human EPO had been used in cures but it was limited and expensive.

So, they didn't need to. The East German doping program was otherwise pretty effective and well proven.

Sure ! Nevertheless according to Guimard EPO is "the most efficient doping product ever for cyclists"

 

[D-Queued]

ah ? you had connections in the Stasi or KGB ?
In the 80's DDR was extremely advanced in blood doping. They even had a state program
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite/article80QSR-1.378004
there are also lots of german documentaries on youtube about blood doping in East Germany.


Synthetic EPO was produced although in limited quantities, tested and in "public" validation trials in 1988. Before that human EPO had been used in cures but it was limited and expensive.


Sure ! Nevertheless according to Guimard EPO is "the most efficient doping product ever for cyclists"

No, but the burden of proof is on your accusations.

Please provide any link or reference that the Stasi program ever involved EPO. Even better, please provide ANY evidence that EPO was used at the 1988 Olympics. By anyone.

Thanks.

Dave.

 

[lllludo]

No, but the burden of proof is on your accusations.

Relax the Clinic is not a court of justice

Use google translate on the link I've posted above.
It says that there was a state sponsored doping program in DDR. During the 80's they focused on blood doping and their program was probably the most advanced in the world. And the West was spying their program.
It says that at the Kreischa sports institut they were using top level athletes to test new protocols and new molecules, new hormones.
The article also says we won't know if they tested synthetical EPO or not because the Stasi destroyed all the doping files before 1990. Most of the DDR doctors and technicians still work in the German system and some of them in Kreischa now a WADA antidoping lab ;-)

Type "DDR doping" on youtube you'll find plenty of documentaries that refers to hormon, doping, blood doping during the 80s but you're right you probably won't find a DDR doc confessing "I doped athletes with with EPO for Seoul 88"
...although it's likely

 

[D-Queued]

Relax the Clinic is not a court of justice

Use google translate on the link I've posted above.
It says that there was a state sponsored doping program in DDR. During the 80's they focused on blood doping and their program was probably the most advanced in the world. And the West was spying their program.
It says that at the Kreischa sports institut they were using top level athletes to test new protocols and new molecules, new hormones.
The article also says we won't know if they tested synthetical EPO or not because the Stasi destroyed all the doping files before 1990. Most of the DDR doctors and technicians still work in the German system and some of them in Kreischa now a WADA antidoping lab ;-)

Type "DDR doping" on youtube you'll find plenty of documentaries that refers to hormon, doping, blood doping during the 80s but you're right you probably won't find a DDR doc confessing "I doped athletes with with EPO for Seoul 88"
...although it's likely

Hello?

I think I am the primary source of most posts/discussions here regarding the Stasi program. Just saying.

Sorry, but the EPO thing in 1988 or earlier is entirely your innuendo.

If Werner Franke says EPO was part of the Stasi program, a drug that he has expressed concern about in more recent times, then I will believe you.

Dave.

 

[poupou]

The DDR women were beast that crushed their opponents.
If it had been blood doping, there is no reason that DDR mens would not have gotten such advantages too.

 

[ChrisE]

But, but, but, but.....GREG LEMOND! When he showed up at crits in California when he was a junior people got scared. That proves EPO happened after 1990 and pre-EPO drugs had no effect.

End of thread.

 

[bobbins]

Wasn't EPO first being used in 1987?

 

[jens_attacks]

the earliest use in cycling for sure, proved with documents was tony rominger, 1990.
almost sure, same year, bugno and il diablo. i highly doubt 1987, especially without any proof.

 

[fmk_RoI]

the earliest use in cycling for sure, proved with documents was tony rominger, 1990.
almost sure, same year, bugno and il diablo. i highly doubt 1987, especially without any proof.

What are the documents proving Rominger in 1990?

 

[jens_attacks]

What are the documents proving Rominger in 1990?

http://wheelmenthebook.com/docs/Ferrari-Worksheet-(Un-Redacted).pdf

tony is listed in 1989 with a 38 hematocrit. and then in april 1990, bang hematocrit 48...hopp eprex.

 

[DirtyWorks]

the earliest use in cycling for sure, proved with documents was tony rominger, 1990.
almost sure, same year, bugno and il diablo. i highly doubt 1987, especially without any proof.

http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/science-epo-doping

1977 purified EPO is captured.
1985 EPO gene is cloned
1987 EPO available in Europe.
1988 FIS bans EPO. (no test though)
1989 gets regulatory approval, probably for the U.S.

I believe EPO was highly anticipated as the 1980's research posted courtesy veloclinic. Doping doctors were onto the idea of modifying oxygen carrying capacity and developed good protocols.

Was EPO used effectively at an elite level in 1987? I'm not sure. Given FIS banned it 1998, the sports federations knew all about it. So, my estimation is EPO was likely used in elite athletics in 1987 as a PED, but not widespread.

1989/90 I would argue the EPO PED protocols are very useful to the point of being revolutionary.... Except for the heart attacks.

 

[pmcg76]

http://wheelmenthebook.com/docs/Ferrari-Worksheet-(Un-Redacted).pdf

tony is listed in 1989 with a 38 hematocrit. and then in april 1990, bang hematocrit 48...hopp eprex.

You know what is funny about that info, the 48 was just before the Vuelta and Rominger still did poorly in it, 16th or something against riders who were unlikely to have been on EPO. The 1990 Vuelta was also supposed to herald the arrival on Indurain as a GT winner but he floundered and instead the win went to not so well known Marco Giovanetti who got in a soft break and managed to cling on.

What does it all mean? Who knows!!!

 

[sniper]

http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/science-epo-doping

1977 purified EPO is captured.
1985 EPO gene is cloned
1987 EPO available in Europe.
1988 FIS bans EPO. (no test though)
1989 gets regulatory approval, probably for the U.S.

I believe EPO was highly anticipated as the 1980's research posted courtesy veloclinic. Doping doctors were onto the idea of modifying oxygen carrying capacity and developed good protocols.

Was EPO used effectively at an elite level in 1987? I'm not sure. Given FIS banned it 1998, the sports federations knew all about it. So, my estimation is EPO was likely used in elite athletics in 1987 as a PED, but not widespread.

1989/90 I would argue the EPO PED protocols are very useful to the point of being revolutionary.... Except for the heart attacks.

in the early 1980s, West Germany experimented with Actovegin first on cyclists and hockey players. ..link here..
It's not farfetched to assume that EPO would also first be tested on cyclists, which perhaps lends some support to the idea that 1987 EPO was already used in cycling.

 

[jens_attacks]

You know what is funny about that info, the 48 was just before the Vuelta and Rominger still did poorly in it, 16th or something against riders who were unlikely to have been on EPO. The 1990 Vuelta was also supposed to herald the arrival on Indurain as a GT winner but he floundered and instead the win went to not so well known Marco Giovanetti who got in a soft break and managed to cling on.

What does it all mean? Who knows!!!

big hematocrit doesn't mean you will win any race. in fact i'm sure, the first users only effect might have been just cardiac arrest and no win
it's all about schedule, training, cocktails and all kind of stuff.

the epo use was perfected only in the spring of 1994, after quite many years of use. and it was tremendously beautiful i might say.

 

[fmk_RoI]

http://wheelmenthebook.com/docs/Ferrari-Worksheet-(Un-Redacted).pdf

tony is listed in 1989 with a 38 hematocrit. and then in april 1990, bang hematocrit 48...hopp eprex.

Where does it say EPO there? Could you not also get those numbers from a transfusion of red cells?

 

[D-Queued]

Where does it say EPO there? Could you not also get those numbers from a transfusion of red cells?

Or, rather an extraction followed by a transfusion.

Dave.

 

[laurel1969]

http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/science-epo-doping

1987 EPO available in Europe

Hmmm.....anybody know anybody who did particularly well in '87? In a sort of 'never subsequently repeated kind of way....

 

[DirtyWorks]

in the early 1980s, West Germany experimented with Actovegin first on cyclists and hockey players. ..link here..
It's not farfetched to assume that EPO would also first be tested on cyclists, which perhaps lends some support to the idea that 1987 EPO was already used in cycling.

But, Actovegin isn't EPO. It's sourced from young cow's blood. Apparently it doesn't work quite as well as EPO???
I trust this article more because they quote Parisotto.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-07-02/opinion-split-over-calf-blood-injection-benefits/2491314

I don't disagree with your post. It is certainly possible cyclists had some sort of early introduction. This is where Thom Wiesel, competitive cyclist training with Eddie B, Angel investor for Amgen story possibly starts. That's deeply uncertain though as again, Conconi and his lab assistants, the document posted a little earlier in this thread about blood doping pre-EPO and who knows who else were aggressively pursuing oxygen vector PED's.

It seems to me lots of PED research was going on internationally such that it's hard to narrow the story down and summarize things like a history book.

 

[lllludo]

It seems to me lots of PED research was going on internationally such that it's hard to narrow the story down and summarize things like a history book.

It seems the Conconi/Ferrari network was not using EPO prior to 1990 but in 1990 il Diablo Bugno and probably Rominger were on it (the last 2 with Chateau d'Ax).
PDM and the dutch started it in 1990. That's for sure : Sanders, the PDM doc, bought large quantities of Geelen from a pharmacy in Geelen as soon as 1990.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/dec97/dec1.html

So it looks like EPO started suddenly in 1990 in the pro-peloton, at the same time in Italy and the Netherlands.
In 1990 Raab & Ampler signed with PDM and Kummer and Schur signed with Chateau d'Ax (Ludwig + Ekimov with Panasonic).
May be purely coincidental. May be not ....

What made those transfers possible ? November 1989 fall of the Berlin wall.
It means that one of the most, if not the most, advanced doping research program in the world was dismantled or for sale.
It was probably the most advanced because it was financed by a state and not only by individuals, by a university or a mafia. But all traces and archives of its activities in the 80s have been destroyed by the Stasi.

So when some say no synth. EPO was used in DDR prior to 1990.

It would be nice if a journalist could investigate properly...

 

[del1962]

If EPO was in use in the DDR, do you think it was in use in other eastern bloc states?

My biggest question about it use is that the DDR was not exactly setting men's distance running alight, look at Seoul (88) 5k and 10k