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Pseudo-science

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Re:

djpbaltimore said:
That is not that different from how the NIH (National Institute of Health) works here in America with their RFAs (requests for applications), albeit more formally than what the Froomes did. I would dispute your argument about the financial gain. I think you overrate what this stunt will have on his endorsement potential? I think his bottom line is mostly predicated on what he achieves on the bike and whether he can continue to elude sanction from the UCI.

if Swart concluded that he had used PEDS to achieve his results(which statistically speaking is the most likely result for the 'transformation'), Froome's career is over...and indeed he may end up paying some back...that is worth millions to him...

so...run a typical NIH RFA past me?
 
Merckx index said:
Jacques de Molay said:
LOL
The only thing "conclusive" about it was how, and where, it was placed by the author, Richard Moore.

Swart may have carried on with seventeen other points during the interview for all we know. Moore chose that one quote as a conclusion.

So you believe that the author of the article did not run it by Swart before publishing? Swart never got a chance to read the article and say, yes, this is what I said, and what I meant, you can publish it?

I don’t know if he did or didn’t, but if I had been in Swart’s shoes, and I didn’t think it was at all clear that the key to Froome’s transformation was just weight loss, I would have been upset.

But don't be distracted by Jeroen Swart's own take on the use of that exact quote, when he directly spoke about it in the podcast.

After the article was published, and after he was subjected to a lot of criticism for that quote.

djpbaltimore said:
I disagree. I think the main conclusion was "The engine was there all along," and 'he just lost the fat' was the hypothesis for how he turned from an also ran to TDF champion. You can disagree with what he said, but there is no scientific reason IMO to criticize him for merely saying something based on the information he was examining.

The first strongly implies the other. If the engine was there all along, weight loss is the logical reason for improved performance. All those other factors subsequently mentioned in the podcast—going from dom to leader; better tactics; improved position on the bike; whatever—really are marginal gains. A rider doesn’t go from pack filler to one of the greatest GT riders of all time just because of those factors. Weight loss is where a really large difference could be made.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
It's a commentator's loose reference to the fact that a rider with a given status in a race (often signified by their jersey) may have or be able to maintain a greater level of motivation to ride harder than they might otherwise do. Motivation does matter when it comes to performance - plenty of examples of that, only have to see how some riders perform solo vs when they have a rabbit to chase. As to what wattage it's worth, well that really depends on what mental state you are making the comparison.

Is that motivation, or is it just being given a better notion of the best pace? Motivation as a performance improver hasn’t fared very well in the sports where it has been studied the most intensively. E.g., in baseball, there is very little evidence that players can perform better in the clutch, in important games or in important (high leverage) situations. In fact, if they could, it would imply they weren’t trying as hard as they could in other situations.

I can understand that some athletes are more motivated towards success than others, and thus may train harder. But for a given professional athlete in competition, I’m dubious that there is such a thing as being specifically motivated at a certain time to perform better. All aspects underlying a specific performance, including the emotional desire to perform well that we associate with motivation, appear to fluctuate randomly, and are largely out of the control of the athlete. The variation may be less extreme in endurance sports like cycling as opposed to more skill-based sports such as baseball, but no doubt it still occurs.

Its bizarre, the expectation here is we are supposedly to believe that Moore twisted Swart's conclusion. That he deleted or omitted important content and we shouldn't trust the article.

So what was the entire premise of the testing and the article? To perhaps prove or demonstrate that froome really is a very talented GT winning rider? and here we are stating that we shouldn't believe it because Moore twisted his comments?

So what do we believe?
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
if Swart concluded that he had used PEDS to achieve his results(which statistically speaking is the most likely result for the 'transformation'), Froome's career is over...and indeed he may end up paying some back...that is worth millions to him...

so...run a typical NIH RFA past me?

It is likely the only explanation. But Froome has already been accused of that by the press repeatedly, including by other scientists. Why would this particular accusation end his career? Armstrong was in much worse heat over his performances, and his bottom line was not tarnished until allegations and evidence of wrongdoing forced him to admit guilt.

The NIH picks areas where they want to study, creating an RFA like below

'The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to support systems biology research projects that address critical questions in HIV/AIDS research in the context of drugs of abuse. Substance use and abuse present unique challenges for HIV prevention, treatment, disease progression, medical consequences, potential cure, and responses to vaccines or therapeutics. Understanding the complex biological intersection of HIV/AIDS and substance use and abuse is the central theme of this FOA.'

Applicants send in applications to the NIH and a study section chooses the recipient of the grant(s). Restrictions are placed on where the results can be disseminated (mostly involving open access as the grant money is public money). NIH is constantly involved in budget fights over funding levels, so their programs are highly scrutinized and they have a vested interest in what they choose to fund and who gets the grant money.
 
Re: Re:

djpbaltimore said:
gillan1969 said:
if Swart concluded that he had used PEDS to achieve his results(which statistically speaking is the most likely result for the 'transformation'), Froome's career is over...and indeed he may end up paying some back...that is worth millions to him...

so...run a typical NIH RFA past me?

It is likely the only explanation. But Froome has already been accused of that by the press repeatedly, including by other scientists. Why would this particular accusation end his career? Armstrong was in much worse heat over his performances, and his bottom line was not tarnished until allegations and evidence of wrongdoing forced him to admit guilt.

The NIH picks areas where they want to study, creating an RFA like below

'The purpose of this Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) is to support systems biology research projects that address critical questions in HIV/AIDS research in the context of drugs of abuse. Substance use and abuse present unique challenges for HIV prevention, treatment, disease progression, medical consequences, potential cure, and responses to vaccines or therapeutics. Understanding the complex biological intersection of HIV/AIDS and substance use and abuse is the central theme of this FOA.'

Applicants send in applications to the NIH and a study section chooses the recipient of the grant(s). Restrictions are placed on where the results can be disseminated (mostly involving open access as the grant money is public money). NIH is constantly involved in budget fights over funding levels, so their programs are highly scrutinized and they have a vested interest in what they choose to fund and who gets the grant money.

accused by psuedo-scientists I think you'll find ;)

yes but this study's raison d'etre is to find the opposite...that's why it would finish him and which is also why is will only ever come to one conclusion

From what I understand of you explanation, your definition of vested interest is different to mine...you mean the NIH have a vested interest in ensuring that they get value for money? Not sure how that is the same as Froome's interest being in the result of something yet to be studied? especially when the subject of that study is Froome himself?

Do the NIH issue grants to study themselves?
 
I think the purpose of the study (when we read the article) will be to study the physiology of a TDF winning cyclist. So, I would disagree that the study was undertaken to prove cleanliness (at least from the scientist's point of view). Obviously, some will misconstrue this to be the case, but you can just ignore those people, (or try to set them straight).

NIH sets paylines and grants that score well enough get funded. The paylines are set based on the budget allotted by congress. The study section is composed of experts in the fields being reviewed, but program officers employed by the NIH can wield quite a bit of power in the process. Other agencies do commission studies on the effectiveness of the NIH, so it can be a subject of inquiry as well. A loss of public faith in the NIH can lead to its demise because it exists due to public money. Currently, it is probably 'too big to fail' but smaller funding agencies can lose support and go belly up when the economy slumps.

In the twitter summit, a scientist colleague of Dr. Swart claimed that he received money from industry and still published things detrimental to the industry. So, publishing against vested interest is not unheard of. The reason this can occur is the intellectual protection offered by academic institutions is a good shield from outside influence. SKY and Froome would be hard-pressed to exert influence over the proceedings of the university even if they wanted to.
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
I think the purpose of the study (when we read the article) will be to study the physiology of a TDF winning cyclist. So, I would disagree that the study was undertaken to prove cleanliness (at least from the scientist's point of view). Obviously, some will misconstrue this to be the case, but you can just ignore those people, (or try to set them straight).

NIH sets paylines and grants that score well enough get funded. The paylines are set based on the budget allotted by congress. The study section is composed of experts in the fields being reviewed, but program officers employed by the NIH can wield quite a bit of power in the process. Other agencies do commission studies on the effectiveness of the NIH, so it can be a subject of inquiry as well. A loss of public faith in the NIH can lead to its demise because it exists due to public money. Currently, it is probably 'too big to fail' but smaller funding agencies can lose support and go belly up when the economy slumps.

In the twitter summit, a scientist colleague of Dr. Swart claimed that he received money from industry and still published things detrimental to the industry. So, publishing against vested interest is not unheard of. The reason this can occur is the intellectual protection offered by academic institutions is a good shield from outside influence. SKY and Froome would be hard-pressed to exert influence over the proceedings of the university even if they wanted to.

If you were the physiologist "studying the physiology of a TDF champ", would you have asked the champ for his TDF files? Or sat him on a bike and extrapolated? Or both?
 
I would be curious to know what additional information was requested (if any). I can't answer your question directly, because I am not a trained physiologist. So, I don't know what measurements that I would absolutely require in order to build a narrative for publication. As I've said here before, I would not undertake a study with professional athletes because I do think most of them dope and those studies don't strike me as particularly impactful. But, I would not criticize those that do as its a very subjective debate.
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
djpbaltimore said:
I think the purpose of the study (when we read the article) will be to study the physiology of a TDF winning cyclist. So, I would disagree that the study was undertaken to prove cleanliness (at least from the scientist's point of view). Obviously, some will misconstrue this to be the case, but you can just ignore those people, (or try to set them straight).

NIH sets paylines and grants that score well enough get funded. The paylines are set based on the budget allotted by congress. The study section is composed of experts in the fields being reviewed, but program officers employed by the NIH can wield quite a bit of power in the process. Other agencies do commission studies on the effectiveness of the NIH, so it can be a subject of inquiry as well. A loss of public faith in the NIH can lead to its demise because it exists due to public money. Currently, it is probably 'too big to fail' but smaller funding agencies can lose support and go belly up when the economy slumps.

In the twitter summit, a scientist colleague of Dr. Swart claimed that he received money from industry and still published things detrimental to the industry. So, publishing against vested interest is not unheard of. The reason this can occur is the intellectual protection offered by academic institutions is a good shield from outside influence. SKY and Froome would be hard-pressed to exert influence over the proceedings of the university even if they wanted to.

If you were the physiologist "studying the physiology of a TDF champ", would you have asked the champ for his TDF files? Or sat him on a bike and extrapolated? Or both?

Apparently not needed to draw a conclusion. Just a sketchy looking fax with bullet holes in it is enough, "the big engine was always there".

Who needs 8 years of data when you have a school report from 2007 :)
 
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djpbaltimore: publishing against vested interest is not unheard of.
a clean rider winning the TdF is also 'not unheard of'.
But these are exceptions, rather than the rule.
And since we're not in a court room, I assume you'll agree that the burden of proof/evidence lies with those who claim to provide an exception to the rule.
Now, the evidence that either Swart or Froome were to be such exceptions strikes me as remarkably thin.
 
I'm not sure I follow your analogy. Everybody faces scrutiny about what they say and do. My point has been that there should not be criticism for merely having an opinion (making a hypothesis, making a conclusion, etc) about the data. And there should not be a rush to label things with blanket statements like bad science and sloppy science to try to discredit that opinion. Yes, I know SKY 'started it' with the pseudoscience angle. But we don't need to sink to their level.

From my view, it is in Dr. Swart's best interests to do a thorough job and pick up a publication for his trouble. I am still not sold that the vested interest angle applies here.
 
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Re:

djpbaltimore said:
I'm not sure I follow your analogy. Everybody faces scrutiny about what they say and do. My point has been that there should not be criticism for merely having an opinion (making a hypothesis, making a conclusion, etc) about the data. And there should not be a rush to label things with blanket statements like bad science and sloppy science to try to discredit that opinion. Yes, I know SKY 'started it' with the pseudoscience angle. But we don't need to sink to their level.

From my view, it is in Dr. Swart's best interests to do a thorough job and pick up a publication for his trouble. I am still not sold that the vested interest angle applies here.
Good post.
As a reminder, Swart's general response to attempts at scrutiny has been like this:

BySpoke ‏@BySpoke 7. Dez. 2015
@jeroenswart @drmarkburnley @ewonsprokler With respect, you do know there are other issues beyond the highlighted text?

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart 7. Dez. 2015
@BySpoke @DrMarkBurnley @EwonSprokler yes yes. There's also the grassy knoll. You haven't brought that in yet.
or this:
viewtopic.php?p=1847542#p1847542
 
Merckx index said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
It's a commentator's loose reference to the fact that a rider with a given status in a race (often signified by their jersey) may have or be able to maintain a greater level of motivation to ride harder than they might otherwise do. Motivation does matter when it comes to performance - plenty of examples of that, only have to see how some riders perform solo vs when they have a rabbit to chase. As to what wattage it's worth, well that really depends on what mental state you are making the comparison.

Is that motivation, or is it just being given a better notion of the best pace? Motivation as a performance improver hasn’t fared very well in the sports where it has been studied the most intensively. E.g., in baseball, there is very little evidence that players can perform better in the clutch, in important games or in important (high leverage) situations. In fact, if they could, it would imply they weren’t trying as hard as they could in other situations.

I can understand that some athletes are more motivated towards success than others, and thus may train harder. But for a given professional athlete in competition, I’m dubious that there is such a thing as being specifically motivated at a certain time to perform better. All aspects underlying a specific performance, including the emotional desire to perform well that we associate with motivation, appear to fluctuate randomly, and are largely out of the control of the athlete. The variation may be less extreme in endurance sports like cycling as opposed to more skill-based sports such as baseball, but no doubt it still occurs.

There's a difference between being motivated and performance under psychological pressure.

The sort of examples I was thinking of are riders who can produce better power output when say riding in a group or race scenario than they've ever been able to do in solo training. I wouldn't say that's a pacing thing, just some are more motivated, perhaps their ego brings out the best in them. Then there are others who are the other way, can bang out great power in solo training efforts but come race day get the yips.

At elite level that tends to dissipate somewhat, as riders need an intrinsically high level of motivation to train and race as much as they do. Even so, there are riders who test poor in the lab but race better than their tests might indicate. Some just need the race for motivation - there's something on the line for them which doesn't exist in the lab.

In any case, there's no physiological basis for the "jersey gives you power" claims by commentators. It's not a science claim.

But if e.g. a rider is wearing the leader's jersey then they may well be motivated to ride harder to defend it than if they were not. Or if they have a chance to claim the jersey, then that may also motivate them to ride harder than they might otherwise do. That's not a statement of their physiological capability but of their motivation to ride harder, which was my original point. The jersey is an inherent motivational factor in how hard some riders choose to ride, but not something that determines how hard they can actually ride.
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
I'm not sure I follow your analogy. Everybody faces scrutiny about what they say and do. My point has been that there should not be criticism for merely having an opinion (making a hypothesis, making a conclusion, etc) about the data. And there should not be a rush to label things with blanket statements like bad science and sloppy science to try to discredit that opinion. Yes, I know SKY 'started it' with the pseudoscience angle. But we don't need to sink to their level.

From my view, it is in Dr. Swart's best interests to do a thorough job and pick up a publication for his trouble. I am still not sold that the vested interest angle applies here.

Froome is both sponsor of the enterprise and the subject...nothing to see here ;)
 
Oh, good grief. I myself have been funded by many NIH grants, and I can assure everyone that the process of selecting recipients is not at all like the process by which Froome/Cound selected Swart. I only wish that the process of receiving a grant was as easy as the process by which Swart was chosen to do this study.

Also, while the study as actually published in a scientific journal will certainly be written up as just an objective characterization of certain physiological parameters of a TDF champion, the original rationale for the study was to alleviate doubts about Froome’s cleanliness. That is abundantly clear from the statements made by Froome/Sky prior to the study. It’s beyond argument that the only reason the study was performed at all was because of all the criticism Froome received, particularly during last year’s Tour.

Just to make my own position clear, I’m not accusing Swart of fraud or incompetence. I think he performed the study fairly well, and assuming the final report is accepted, I expect the science to be reasonably sound. The real problem, IMO, is that while Swart or Moore probably shouldn’t have made the statement that it was just weight loss, in fact that statement is probably fairly accurate. If the earlier report on his weight is correct (though it is inconsistent with Froome's own statements about his weight during that period), and if his absolute power did not drop significantly, then he did experience a very large increase in power/weight.

I think the reason Swart subsequently backed off from or qualified that statement is partly because, as a scientist, he knows that there are probably multiple factors involved, that one single factor is unlikely to be 100% responsible for Froome's improvement. Fair enough. But weight loss is also more consistent with doping than is an explanation involving other factors, so emphasizing it tends to add more suspicion to Froome than is the case if there are other factors. There are PEDs that help riders lose weight. There aren’t PEDs that help riders become team leaders (except, of course, indirectly through performance enhancement).

The bottom line is that Froome underwent a major change in performance and results. The greater the number of factors such as being team leader, changes in training, etc., one can name as possibly contributing to this change, the less need there is for suggesting doping as the major reason. The very fact that someone would search for these factors indicates a presumption of cleanliness. The question implicitly being asked is, assuming he didn't dope, how can we explain the change in his performance? That's a fair question, but a complete scientific analysis would also ask the question, assuming he did dope, how can we explain the change?

If the original purpose of the study was to address doping allegations, how can you not ask the latter question? Froome/Cound's approach was not to ask this question. It was to show that Froome was clean, IOW, they were presupposing the answer they wanted--the antithesis of science. A scientist should go into this study with an open mind about whether doping occurred or not. I'm not saying Swart could have conducted the study any differently if he had approached it in that manner, but he certainly could have broadened his discussion and interpretations to include this issue. If he was unwilling to do this, then his approach shouldn't be considered scientific. Quite frankly, if I were a reviewer of the paper, and there was no discussion of the possibility of doping, I would flag it. Maybe there will be, but I doubt it.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
There's a difference between being motivated and performance under psychological pressure.

I would say there are different potential sources for motivation, and psychological pressure is certainly one of them. I was contrasting that in-the-moment motivation with a different kind that might result from a situation preceding the competition, such as wearing the jersey.

At elite level that tends to dissipate somewhat, as riders need an intrinsically high level of motivation to train and race as much as they do.

Agreed, that was part of my point originally.

But if e.g. a rider is wearing the leader's jersey then they may well be motivated to ride harder to defend it than if they were not. Or if they have a chance to claim the jersey, then that may also motivate them to ride harder than they might otherwise do.

If this actually happens, I would say these riders are not putting out their best in other situations, and management/trainers should certainly be trying to find out why and working with them to address this problem.
 
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Long time lurker, first time etc…

Probably safe to assume none of you guys pay to be friends of Moore’s cycling podcast so I thought I would share some of the things raised in the special that came out yesterday that I don’t remember seeing in the Esquire bit or the free podcast.

GSK guys talking about how Michelle contacted them through their website enquiry form and the total double take they did on the surname, the lab bods generally quite awed to have Chris there.

Chris being asked about his race weight for when they work out his race VO2max, lab bod suggests they use 66kg, Chris says he’s not been there this year but 67kg is about right.

Chris being told his VO2max and having it put into context, scientists talk about seeing slightly higher (up to mid 90’s) in cross country skiers and runners, say this is because they use more of their upper body as well in their sports. They mention that EBH has a max of 91 and Chris was all “Eddie’s done it? And his was 91?” in the tone of someone trying to sound intellectually interested but actually seething that he’s been beaten. Chris talks about not feeling 100% and wanting to come back when he is.

Some talk about the value of knowing VO2max to an athlete… not a lot as it’s very hard to improve it after someone has been training at the top for a few years.

Then cut to Moore, Bernie and Friebe for some chitter chatter at the end, discuss how closely the numbers in the lab test match the older figures. Moore says he asked Chris about the breakthrough in 2011 and why he didn’t show this before, said Chris talked about not getting opportunities as a domestic and gave example of 2010 tour down under where Chris was working as the first man to be used up and was on his knees by the time Willunga Hill rolled round. They talked about a power passport and how it would need to look at entire stages rather than focusing on the 20 minute climb at the end, Friebe spitballed the figures of a domestic putting out 320 watts vs a leader doing 280 for the hours leading up to the final climb on a stage like La Pierre-Saint-Martin.

Then they went off on a tangent about the psychological part of performance (seemed like the GSK guys where very much into that) and talked about how the brain puts a handbrake on what the body can do, not really relevant but I liked the examples of lab tests where people claiming to be putting out their max strength on a leg press found an extra 20-30% when someone fired a shotgun blank behind them, because science is fun. Other example were guys on treadmills reported exhaustion levels dropping when a hot girl came into the room.
 
Re:

SouthDowns said:
Long time lurker, first time etc…

Probably safe to assume none of you guys pay to be friends of Moore’s cycling podcast so I thought I would share some of the things raised in the special that came out yesterday that I don’t remember seeing in the Esquire bit or the free podcast.

GSK guys talking about how Michelle contacted them through their website enquiry form and the total double take they did on the surname, the lab bods generally quite awed to have Chris there.

Chris being asked about his race weight for when they work out his race VO2max, lab bod suggests they use 66kg, Chris says he’s not been there this year but 67kg is about right.

Chris being told his VO2max and having it put into context, scientists talk about seeing slightly higher (up to mid 90’s) in cross country skiers and runners, say this is because they use more of their upper body as well in their sports. They mention that EBH has a max of 91 and Chris was all “Eddie’s done it? And his was 91?” in the tone of someone trying to sound intellectually interested but actually seething that he’s been beaten. Chris talks about not feeling 100% and wanting to come back when he is.

Some talk about the value of knowing VO2max to an athlete… not a lot as it’s very hard to improve it after someone has been training at the top for a few years.

Then cut to Moore, Bernie and Friebe for some chitter chatter at the end, discuss how closely the numbers in the lab test match the older figures. Moore says he asked Chris about the breakthrough in 2011 and why he didn’t show this before, said Chris talked about not getting opportunities as a domestic and gave example of 2010 tour down under where Chris was working as the first man to be used up and was on his knees by the time Willunga Hill rolled round. They talked about a power passport and how it would need to look at entire stages rather than focusing on the 20 minute climb at the end, Friebe spitballed the figures of a domestic putting out 320 watts vs a leader doing 280 for the hours leading up to the final climb on a stage like La Pierre-Saint-Martin.

Then they went off on a tangent about the psychological part of performance (seemed like the GSK guys where very much into that) and talked about how the brain puts a handbrake on what the body can do, not really relevant but I liked the examples of lab tests where people claiming to be putting out their max strength on a leg press found an extra 20-30% when someone fired a shotgun blank behind them, because science is fun. Other example were guys on treadmills reported exhaustion levels dropping when a hot girl came into the room.

thanks for contribution...yeah not signed up for that :)

slightly different account of the instigation from Swart though..

"After all the abuse he suffered, I got a call out of the blue from Michelle, who asked whether I'd be interested in doing the testing," Swart said.

They decided on a time, then had to find the right location. "We looked at options for testing in Monaco [where Froome lives during the season]. We didn't really find a suitable lab where we could do everything in one place." They settled on the London GSK lab, which was a short ride from the airport, making it easy for both Froome and Swart, who had to travel from Cape Town.

Not sure the Cound would have used the online web form in those circumstances...but still, makes a nice story.... :)
 
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Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
...
thanks for contribution...yeah not signed up for that :)

slightly different account of the instigation from Swart though..

"After all the abuse he suffered, I got a call out of the blue from Michelle, who asked whether I'd be interested in doing the testing," Swart said.

They decided on a time, then had to find the right location. "We looked at options for testing in Monaco [where Froome lives during the season]. We didn't really find a suitable lab where we could do everything in one place." They settled on the London GSK lab, which was a short ride from the airport, making it easy for both Froome and Swart, who had to travel from Cape Town.

Not sure the Cound would have used the online web form in those circumstances...but still, makes a nice story.... :)
I would like to hear from Matt Furber, one of the GSK guys whose twitter profile says he's working for UKAD.
Swart admits he'd have declined testing Froome if he'd worked for UCI, as it would be a clear COI.
Why didn't Furber decline?
 
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Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
They decided on a time, then had to find the right location. "We looked at options for testing in Monaco [where Froome lives during the season]. We didn't really find a suitable lab where we could do everything in one place." They settled on the London GSK lab, which was a short ride from the airport, making it easy for both Froome and Swart, who had to travel from Cape Town.

Not sure the Cound would have used the online web form in those circumstances...but still, makes a nice story.... :)

There was an enthusiastic innocence about the lab monkeys being interviewed.
 
Merckx index said:
But if e.g. a rider is wearing the leader's jersey then they may well be motivated to ride harder to defend it than if they were not. Or if they have a chance to claim the jersey, then that may also motivate them to ride harder than they might otherwise do.

If this actually happens, I would say these riders are not putting out their best in other situations, and management/trainers should certainly be trying to find out why and working with them to address this problem.
It depends on the situation as you know, often it's smart to save ones self to fry some other fish later, or take advantage of those that have to do the most work because of their tactical situation.
 
Merckx index said:
Oh, good grief. I myself have been funded by many NIH grants, and I can assure everyone that the process of selecting recipients is not at all like the process by which Froome/Cound selected Swart. I only wish that the process of receiving a grant was as easy as the process by which Swart was chosen to do this study.

Also, while the study as actually published in a scientific journal will certainly be written up as just an objective characterization of certain physiological parameters of a TDF champion, the original rationale for the study was to alleviate doubts about Froome’s cleanliness. That is abundantly clear from the statements made by Froome/Sky prior to the study. It’s beyond argument that the only reason the study was performed at all was because of all the criticism Froome received, particularly during last year’s Tour.

Just to make my own position clear, I’m not accusing Swart of fraud or incompetence. I think he performed the study fairly well, and assuming the final report is accepted, I expect the science to be reasonably sound. The real problem, IMO, is that while Swart or Moore probably shouldn’t have made the statement that it was just weight loss, in fact that statement is probably fairly accurate. If the earlier report on his weight is correct (though it is inconsistent with Froome's own statements about his weight during that period), and if his absolute power did not drop significantly, then he did experience a very large increase in power/weight.

I think the reason Swart subsequently backed off from or qualified that statement is partly because, as a scientist, he knows that there are probably multiple factors involved, that one single factor is unlikely to be 100% responsible for Froome's improvement. Fair enough. But weight loss is also more consistent with doping than is an explanation involving other factors, so emphasizing it tends to add more suspicion to Froome than is the case if there are other factors. There are PEDs that help riders lose weight. There aren’t PEDs that help riders become team leaders (except, of course, indirectly through performance enhancement).

The bottom line is that Froome underwent a major change in performance and results. The greater the number of factors such as being team leader, changes in training, etc., one can name as possibly contributing to this change, the less need there is for suggesting doping as the major reason. The very fact that someone would search for these factors indicates a presumption of cleanliness. The question implicitly being asked is, assuming he didn't dope, how can we explain the change in his performance? That's a fair question, but a complete scientific analysis would also ask the question, assuming he did dope, how can we explain the change?

If the original purpose of the study was to address doping allegations, how can you not ask the latter question? Froome/Cound's approach was not to ask this question. It was to show that Froome was clean, IOW, they were presupposing the answer they wanted--the antithesis of science. A scientist should go into this study with an open mind about whether doping occurred or not. I'm not saying Swart could have conducted the study any differently if he had approached it in that manner, but he certainly could have broadened his discussion and interpretations to include this issue. If he was unwilling to do this, then his approach shouldn't be considered scientific. Quite frankly, if I were a reviewer of the paper, and there was no discussion of the possibility of doping, I would flag it. Maybe there will be, but I doubt it.

The issue won't be in the 2015 data but with the 2007 artifacts and if anything between those years is used and presented.

Personal SRM data would be hard to validate along with the 2007 data being suspect, the conclusions of "the big engine was always there" will be a tough sell.
 
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Merckx index said:
The bottom line is that Froome underwent a major change in performance and results. The greater the number of factors such as being team leader, changes in training, etc., one can name as possibly contributing to this change, the less need there is for suggesting doping as the major reason. The very fact that someone would search for these factors indicates a presumption of cleanliness. The question implicitly being asked is, assuming he didn't dope, how can we explain the change in his performance? That's a fair question, but a complete scientific analysis would also ask the question, assuming he did dope, how can we explain the change?

If the original purpose of the study was to address doping allegations, how can you not ask the latter question? Froome/Cound's approach was not to ask this question. It was to show that Froome was clean, IOW, they were presupposing the answer they wanted--the antithesis of science. A scientist should go into this study with an open mind about whether doping occurred or not. I'm not saying Swart could have conducted the study any differently if he had approached it in that manner, but he certainly could have broadened his discussion and interpretations to include this issue. If he was unwilling to do this, then his approach shouldn't be considered scientific. Quite frankly, if I were a reviewer of the paper, and there was no discussion of the possibility of doping, I would flag it. Maybe there will be, but I doubt it.
*like*
 
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...The greater the number of factors such as being team leader, changes in training, etc.,

Even when we disregard the fact that Froome became team leader only post-Vuelta and thus post-transformation, this whole idea to attribute his transformation to that change of roles is still a darn crappy argument. It's just not how it works. Case in point:

Sky's Dario Cioni got a backdated UCI exemption for naturally high hct after the WC road race in 2004 where he was not allowed to start because of a 50+ hematocrit measurement.
Cioni's best carreer results: Italian time trial champion, 5th in Tour of Romandie, 4th in Giro D’Italia, 3rd in Tour of Switzerland --- all in 2004, and all obtained while effectively being a domestique at Fassa Bortolo, and all prior to the 50+ measurement which was at the end of the 2004 season. That incident clearly scared the *** out of him. He then moves to Liquigas for the 2005 season and, surprise surprise: "despite being one of the team's leaders and hence liberated from the role of domestique, he had no notable successes" (Cioni's wiki)

Cioni's case once again shows that doping/PEDs has so much more explanatory power than any marginal crap gains argument, which connects to your previous argument that ignoring doping as a possible factor in the Froome data discussion is just bad science.
 
To be fair the team leader explanation makes total sense. Big scientific points to whoever figured out that pattern.

He did poorly in all those races where he wasn't team leader throughout 2007- 2011.
Then in the 2011 Vuelta and the 2012 Tour de France he suddenly did really well because things were different. Now he wasn't the team leader.


Oh wait. :rolleyes: