Pulling a Wiggins

[Benotti69]

The problem is people forget this is professional cycling and the culture to dope has never changed.

Sky same as all the doping teams that went before and will come after.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

The problem is people forget this is professional cycling and the culture to dope has never changed.

Sky same as all the doping teams that went before and will come after.

Oh don't misunderstand me, I don't really believe that that was the only thing in the package and it's taken all this for it to come out. I just think it's a good idea to clear up the misunderstandings about acetylcysteine so we don't focus on a dead end.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

Not really, it's regularly given to people with asthma, COPD etc. you're just meant to monitor them and stop treatment if they have problems. The problem is people will find the first snippet and then not bother looking into it further or not be able to.

Quite correct, I'll be the first to admit that a lot of what's written in medical mumbo jumbo is mostly gibberish to me...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

Not really, it's regularly given to people with asthma, COPD etc. you're just meant to monitor them and stop treatment if they have problems. The problem is people will find the first snippet and then not bother looking into it further or not be able to.

Quite correct, I'll be the first to admit that a lot of what's written in medical mumbo jumbo is mostly gibberish to me...

It can be worse in other types of research. Many people purposefully write in ways that make things overly complicated and have people reaching for dictionaries. It's really annoying!

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

Acetylcysteine, in other forms is licensed in the UK.

Is it? I'm pretty sure it isn't but it's covered under a European licence (lets not discuss Brexit) and as a supplement it doesn't require one.

Should have checked myself:

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/spc-pil/?subsName=ACETYLCYSTEINE&pageID=SecondLevel

Is the list that you've linked to all the formulations of of Acetylcysteine that are licensed in the UK? If so, isn't one of the formulations the 600mg effervescent version that the other NHS website said was unlicensed?

None of the listed medications are fluimacil. The active ingredient is the same but the formulation will differ and that requires regulatory approval. I don't know where the picture Hog posted came from, but if it is specifically talking about fluimacil then my guess is that specific brand does not have regulatory approval.

Thanks for clarifying, appreciate it!

 

[thehog]

From the NHS;

http://www.worcsacute.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=36481&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

Acetylcysteine (Fluimucil®) 600mg Effervescent Tablets

This medicine does not have a licence for use in the UK. Therefore, the information provided by the manufacturer is not available in English. Your doctor will explain the implications of taking an unlicensed medicine with you prior to starting treatment. Please note, although acetylcysteine is not licensed for use in the UK, this medication is widely used for patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Thanks for clarifying, appreciate it!

No worries. Regulation can get quite complicated. It depends if it's a new product, a generic, a bio-similar, an extension and so on and companies have to show that they meet certain criteria for each (while also not falling foul of anyone else's patents). It's really not my area but I do know people who are involved in both the applying and approval side of it so have a fairly good knowledge (and ways to find out things).

There is also the fact that doctors will use brand names for things when the actual product prescribed is a generic/bio-similar (because they are basically the same thing), which in this case is very probable and just adds to the confusion.

 

[King Boonen]

From the NHS;

http://www.worcsacute.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=36481&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

Acetylcysteine (Fluimucil®) 600mg Effervescent Tablets

This medicine does not have a licence for use in the UK. Therefore, the information provided by the manufacturer is not available in English. Your doctor will explain the implications of taking an unlicensed medicine with you prior to starting treatment. Please note, although acetylcysteine is not licensed for use in the UK, this medication is widely used for patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.

That is very specifically talking about the brand version (fluimucil) at first which is why they say that the info is not available in English. I think it's a German product.

As for acetylcysteine not being licensed, well clearly that's not the case as several acetylcysteine products have MHRA PL codes as linked about. Also, they refer to the active ingredient on its own which doesn't need a licence to be sold in certain forms the UK (hence why Holland and Barrett, and probably most Supermarkets, sell it).

 

[thehog]

From the NHS;

http://www.worcsacute.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=36481&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

Acetylcysteine (Fluimucil®) 600mg Effervescent Tablets

This medicine does not have a licence for use in the UK. Therefore, the information provided by the manufacturer is not available in English. Your doctor will explain the implications of taking an unlicensed medicine with you prior to starting treatment. Please note, although acetylcysteine is not licensed for use in the UK, this medication is widely used for patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.

That is very specifically talking about the brand version (fluimucil) at first which is why they say that the info is not available in English. I think it's a German product.

As for acetylcysteine not being licensed, well clearly that's not the case as several acetylcysteine products have MHRA PL codes as linked about. Also, they refer to the active ingredient on its own which doesn't need a licence to be sold in certain forms the UK (hence why Holland and Barrett, and probably most Supermarkets, sell it).

Yes, we know, which is what Brailsford named as the product, the unlicensed one.

 

[RownhamHill]

From the NHS;

http://www.worcsacute.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=36481&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

Acetylcysteine (Fluimucil®) 600mg Effervescent Tablets

This medicine does not have a licence for use in the UK. Therefore, the information provided by the manufacturer is not available in English. Your doctor will explain the implications of taking an unlicensed medicine with you prior to starting treatment. Please note, although acetylcysteine is not licensed for use in the UK, this medication is widely used for patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.

That is very specifically talking about the brand version (fluimucil) at first which is why they say that the info is not available in English. I think it's a German product.

As for acetylcysteine not being licensed, well clearly that's not the case as several acetylcysteine products have MHRA PL codes as linked about. Also, they refer to the active ingredient on its own which doesn't need a licence to be sold in certain forms the UK (hence why Holland and Barrett, and probably most Supermarkets, sell it).

Yes, we know, which is what Brailsford named as the product, the unlicensed one.

Interesting stuff. TheHog, what do you think the significance is of Brailsford naming (and, therefore presumably, Freeman prescribing and Wiggins using) an unlicensed (in the UK) brand version of the licensed drug acetylcysteine?

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

Not really, it's regularly given to people with asthma, COPD etc. you're just meant to monitor them and stop treatment if they have problems. The problem is people will find the first snippet and then not bother looking into it further or not be able to.

It doesn't seem that one would be experimenting with a product such as this when the patient is riding the TdF. It could be disastrous.
Wonder if anyone asked if Wiggins had been treated with this medication in the past. Doubt it. That migth require another lie by Brailsford.

 

[thehog]

From the NHS;

http://www.worcsacute.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=36481&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

Acetylcysteine (Fluimucil®) 600mg Effervescent Tablets

This medicine does not have a licence for use in the UK. Therefore, the information provided by the manufacturer is not available in English. Your doctor will explain the implications of taking an unlicensed medicine with you prior to starting treatment. Please note, although acetylcysteine is not licensed for use in the UK, this medication is widely used for patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.

That is very specifically talking about the brand version (fluimucil) at first which is why they say that the info is not available in English. I think it's a German product.

As for acetylcysteine not being licensed, well clearly that's not the case as several acetylcysteine products have MHRA PL codes as linked about. Also, they refer to the active ingredient on its own which doesn't need a licence to be sold in certain forms the UK (hence why Holland and Barrett, and probably most Supermarkets, sell it).

Yes, we know, which is what Brailsford named as the product, the unlicensed one.

Interesting stuff. TheHog, what do you think the significance is of Brailsford naming (and, therefore presumably, Freeman prescribing and Wiggins using) an unlicensed (in the UK) brand version of the licensed drug acetylcysteine?

Not much, I have no doubt Wiggins was already using that brand, he spent most of that year in Spain, so not unusual.

Also I'm sure the team doctors were proceeding the drug outside the U.K. and keeping in their stores. What I don't buy is how stupidly far fetched the story is. They were all moving on to a training camp. The drug would have been sent by regular post or courier to Italy with lout restriction. Was Wiggins decongested so bad he needed the drug immediately? His post race interviews suggest not.

More questions than answers on this one...

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

Not really, it's regularly given to people with asthma, COPD etc. you're just meant to monitor them and stop treatment if they have problems. The problem is people will find the first snippet and then not bother looking into it further or not be able to.

It doesn't seem that one would be experimenting with a product such as this when the patient is riding the TdF. It could be disastrous.
Wonder if anyone asked if Wiggins had been treated with this medication in the past. Doubt it. That migth require another lie by Brailsford.

Experimenting? Wut?

 

[veganrob]

I'm wondering if this was the first time he ever received this medication. Did you get that?

 

[Gloin22]

NAC is a hidden gem for hangovers. I bet that's the real reason ;P

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I'm wondering if this was the first time he ever received this medication. Did you get that?

No I didn't, because that's not what you said I the first part. You said experimenting with "a product such as this" and when "the patient is riding the TDF". So you'll have to explain why it doesn't seem that one would do this? What, specifically, is wrong with this product? Why is giving it an experiment worthy of note?

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

So it's they say it was NAC in the mysterious package. Doesn't make any sense since you can get it OTC in most countries. But good pick if you are ready to overlook that, it's not something that you can argue is a PED.

 

[Benotti69]

The lack of tweets from fanboy Richard Moore tells us lots.

Bet Fotheringhams have similar silence.

Cycling still a circus and will always be.

 

[Benotti69]

Fluimucil alters a patients haematology. Can be 9% ride in Hct.!!!

Why is that not showing on Wiggins ABP???

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Fluimucil alters a patients haematology. Can be 9% ride in Hct.!!!

Why is that not showing on Wiggins ABP???

Citation required.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

It seems it does.
Vayerism and Tucker having some interesting tweets and retweets.
Apparently Froome got that stuff injected at Barloworld.
And as benotti points out for good reasons.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

It seems it does.
Vayerism and Tucker having some interesting tweets and retweets.
Apparently Froome got that stuff injected at Barloworld.
And as benotti points out for good reasons.

he got fluimucil injections?
didnt know that.
as you say it´s a product without any repercussion, not a PED

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

It seems it does.
Vayerism and Tucker having some interesting tweets and retweets.
Apparently Froome got that stuff injected at Barloworld.
And as benotti points out for good reasons.

he got fluimucil injections?
didnt know that.
as you say it´s a product without any repercussion, not a PED

yeah, no time to link stuff, but check Tucker and Vayerism's twitterfeeds.

With no-needle policy in mind, worth noting that according to Shane or Dave (i don't recall), Freeman "administered" it to Wiggins. Which would suggest injection. So more contradictions there.

For the record, I'm still convinced that it wasn't flumacil in the bag.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

It seems it does.
Vayerism and Tucker having some interesting tweets and retweets.
Apparently Froome got that stuff injected at Barloworld.
And as benotti points out for good reasons.

he got fluimucil injections?
didnt know that.
as you say it´s a product without any repercussion, not a PED

But with no-needle policy in mind, something the press should highlight is the fact that according to Shane or Dave (i don't recall), Freeman "administered" it to Wiggins. Which would suggest injection.

fine, no needle police at Sky.
Barloworld in 2008-09 had no "no needle" policy

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Fumacil, with all respect but it's a moot discussion.
They were always going to pick something that won't have any repercussions. They had plenty of time to think it through. Fumacil is a solid pick. Cough medicine, fitting Wiggins asthma.

We know for a fact that there was something else in the bag.

This "pick" does have repercussions though.... It leads to so many more questions.

It seems it does.
Vayerism and Tucker having some interesting tweets and retweets.
Apparently Froome got that stuff injected at Barloworld.
And as benotti points out for good reasons.

he got fluimucil injections?
didnt know that.
as you say it´s a product without any repercussion, not a PED

From the Kimmage interview...

PK: What about recuperation? Did you have any injections during that Tour?

CF: No. On Barloworld they did do injectable . . . was it Fluimacil? It was an amino acid or something and the doctor would administer that at certain points. And I did have some Fluimacil. I don’t know if I had it on the Tour but there were . . . it’s possible once or twice.

PK: Who was the doctor?

CF: (Massimiliano) Mantovani. And before he’d do it he would show it to me and say: ‘This is Fluimacil, an amino acid. It will help you to recover.’

PK: You would ask to see what it was?

CF: Yeah.

PK: When was the first time you had an injection as a bike rider?

CF: It would have been on Barloworld.

PK: Because for me, syringes and sport was not a natural association?

CF: No, and not one I had before either.

PK: When was the first time?

CF: I don’t necessarily remember the first time; I just remember it was a few times when I was at Barloworld. It would have been one of the earlier Spanish races that I did. It was definitely in a stage race, about half-way through or two-thirds of the way through. The doctor came around to everyone’s room and said, ‘Okay guys, you’ve had three hard days, here are some amino acids to help you recover.’ At first I thought, ‘This is a bit weird’ but he explained there were no problems with it and that it was completely allowed.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-chris-froome-in-the-eye-of-the-storm-part-2-30394950.html