Pulling a Wiggins

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Digger said:
Do people seriously think there is a comparable talent pool between track cycling and road?

Looking at it from the UCI's perspective, it's a development pool for the road show. Rudy Altig was a dominating track racer first. Mountain biking is definitely the same way.

So, as much as it's almost a rhetorical question, "who rides track that's any good on the road?" It's not quite that simple. Road talent passes through the niche.

MartinVicker's post about various people caring about Wiggo medaling is as I see it. It matters!
 

martinvickers

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DirtyWorks said:
Looking at it from the UCI's perspective, it's a development pool for the road show. The TdF winner Rudy Altig was a dominating track racer first. Mountain biking is definitely the same way.

So, as much as it's almost a rhetorical question, "who rides track that's any good on the road?" It's not quite that simple. Road talent passes through the niche.

MartinVicker's post about various people caring about Wiggo medaling is as I see it. It matters!

Thanks DW, appreciated. Really bemused that what was really just explanatory stuff seemed to annoy people - some people just can't wait to hate on Wiggo can they! I know he's a t*sser, but all the same...

Of course, the key difference, for a VERY long time, was that fully pro riders were banned from the Olympics under amateurism rules - so there literally was no way to earn on the pro roads AND stay eligible for Olympic track. That, rather than 'talent pool' explains the historical shadow Olympic track 'suffered' under. The very best roadies were excluded from the Games, the heart of track cycling. That only started to change in the late eighties, early nineties.

Lest we forget, leaving olympics aside - the Great Coppi was a double World Ind Pursuit champ, Merckx regularly took to the boards in 'pro' track events. Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, all hour records holders too on the track. Merckx rode 35 6 day races alone. Zabel rode them, Cipollini too. Theo Bos is an excellent track rider, and a pretty decent roadie. Lasse Norman Hansen.

And lo, the track, esp endurance, is now clearly a seeding ground for certain nations, and for those who take the olympics seriously, an important one. - think Phinney and the Australians. It wasn't only Wiggins, of course. Cavendish was also a significant trackie. The new French national centre is a clear example of that change happening now in France. Riblon, a very good road rider, for example has openly declared an ambition of a world track title.

But never mind. Denegrate an entire side of the sport, all so you can have a good sneer at one rider you really detest. Fair enough. But don't be expecting some of us not to see it for what it is.
 
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DirtyWorks said:
Looking at it from the UCI's perspective, it's a development pool for the road show. The TdF winner Rudy Altig was a dominating track racer first. Mountain biking is definitely the same way.
So, as much as it's almost a rhetorical question, "who rides track that's any good on the road?" It's not quite that simple. Road talent passes through the niche.

MartinVicker's post about various people caring about Wiggo medaling is as I see it. It matters!
TdF = Tour de Francfort ??
Altig once won the Vuelta but it was not the same race as today. Not so many high climbs because not so many asphalted mountain road in Franco's spain.
To succeed on track you need track skills + watts and weight does not matter.
To succeed on the road in GT you need road skills + watts + low weight.
So not exactly the same characteristics.
Once in a while you find a "diamond" on track that can become a GT winner but before British Cycling it was rare (Hinault was a good track rider when young).
In the 70s a big guy like Moser was a great pursuiter but always handicapped big his big frame in the mountains... he tried to loose weight but lost some muscles and power doing so.
Then he met Conconi, he improved dramatically and won the Giro.
4 pursuit world champions went on to win a GT: Altig, Moser, Wiggo (of course) ... and Coppi !

So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?
 

martinvickers

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lllludo said:
TdF = Tour de Francfort ??
Altig once won the Vuelta but it was not the same race as today. Not so many high climbs because not so many asphalted mountain road in Franco's spain.
To succeed on track you need track skills + watts and weight does not matter.
To succeed on the road in GT you need road skills + watts + low weight.
So not exactly the same characteristics.

You do now, with racing dominated by a clutch of mountain stages, the rest nullified by team orders and race radios. Twas not ever thus, you know. Sean Kelly won a Vuelta, should have won another, for jesus sake. Can you imagine that in todays GTs?

Once in a while you find a "diamond" on track that can become a GT winner but before British Cycling it was rare (Hinault was a good track rider when young).
In the 70s a big guy like Moser was a great pursuiter but always handicapped big his big frame in the mountains... he tried to loose weight but lost some muscles and power doing so.
Then he met Conconi, he improved dramatically and won the Giro.
4 pursuit world champions went on to win a GT: Altig, Moser, Wiggo (of course) ... and Coppi !

So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?

Not remotely. Coppi won 7 GTs and 10 monuments. Wiggins has a single GT.
Both have two world pursuit titles. Coppi also admitted doping!;)

But people treat Wiggins as if got to explain Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination. He's a highly accomplished track cyclist who got dragged to one TdF on a reasonably friendly Parcours with his only real rival helping him do it.

Coppi is one of the three greatest all round cyclists who ever lived. Indeed, with his two world titles on the track to go with everything else, perhaps the greatest.

You say well the odd diamond might manage to go from track winning to GC - and then menction coppi, merckx, hinault - but they didn't go to winning GC - they went to absolutely dominating GC for vast lengths of time and are giants of the sport - Wiggins hasn't come within a spit of that - like most winners of GT outside the legends group.
 
lllludo said:
So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?

Ok, so I blew the Altig reference. It's fixed. The sport crosses a line with EPO.

On straight results? Wiggo's done well switching from track. Cadel Evans has done well switching from mountain bikes.

Comparing Wiggo to Coppi isn't really possible. The legend of Coppi surpasses Wiggo.
 
Dec 11, 2013
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Digger said:
Do people seriously think there is a comparable talent pool between track cycling and road?

No. That's why GB targeted it an area where medals could be won.

However it would be stupid to conclude from this that an multiple Olympic and World champion in a endurance track event isn't going to have some talent which could be transferred to the road.

To say he came 'from nowhere' falls into the trap of grossly exaggerating your case.
 

Justinr

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Digger said:
Not about what 'he' wrote...I see it time and again the Wiggins defenders use track as a way of saying he didn't come out of nowhere...and I ask again does anyone seriously think both talents pools are similar..

I dont think its impossible to go from one to the other BUT i would say that also probably depends on your physical make up in the first place.

For instance I wouldn't say Chris Hoy as a Sprint/500m/1k rider could ever make it as a longer distance road cyclist. Thats probably a bit like saying would Usain Bolt (or similar) make a good 5k / 10k / Half Marathon runner. His build is just not right - short/stocky (Hoy), just like a Track & Field sprinter.

Now a 4k Team Pursuit rider could probably make it up to the longer distances. Thats probably like saying would Mo Farah (or similar) be able to go from 5k /10K to Half or Full Marathon. Well he's skinny - like all decent medium / long distance runners over the years.

Now to make the step to GT contender as a cyclist I guess its like saying as a runner could they do 10k / Half Marathon everyday for 3 weeks. Hoy = no, Farah = probably yes.

I think thats what people (I hesitate to say 'we' as I will get posts telling me otherwise) are looking at with Wiggo. He's more of a Farah than a Hoy in my opinion - he's gone from, say, 5k/10k to 5k a day NOT from 1k sprint to GT.

I'm not going to say this proves anything - just wanted to make sure people aren't giving the impression BW has gone from Track Sprint to GT. If we're having a debate lets at least get close to apples v apples.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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lllludo said:
TdF = Tour de Francfort ??
Altig once won the Vuelta but it was not the same race as today. Not so many high climbs because not so many asphalted mountain road in Franco's spain.
To succeed on track you need track skills + watts and weight does not matter.
To succeed on the road in GT you need road skills + watts + low weight.
So not exactly the same characteristics.
Once in a while you find a "diamond" on track that can become a GT winner but before British Cycling it was rare (Hinault was a good track rider when young).
In the 70s a big guy like Moser was a great pursuiter but always handicapped big his big frame in the mountains... he tried to loose weight but lost some muscles and power doing so.
Then he met Conconi, he improved dramatically and won the Giro.
4 pursuit world champions went on to win a GT: Altig, Moser, Wiggo (of course) ... and Coppi !

So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?
A pretty good analasys for everyone not from 'the Isles'. Stupid Europeans, know nothing...
 
May 26, 2009
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Cool!!! We're having the an individual pursuit guy can win a GT while being clean stuff again. It's good to have the 'greatest hits' set every once in a while.
 
May 26, 2010
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lllludo said:
TdF = Tour de Francfort ??
Altig once won the Vuelta but it was not the same race as today. Not so many high climbs because not so many asphalted mountain road in Franco's spain.
To succeed on track you need track skills + watts and weight does not matter.
To succeed on the road in GT you need road skills + watts + low weight.
So not exactly the same characteristics.
Once in a while you find a "diamond" on track that can become a GT winner but before British Cycling it was rare (Hinault was a good track rider when young).
In the 70s a big guy like Moser was a great pursuiter but always handicapped big his big frame in the mountains... he tried to loose weight but lost some muscles and power doing so.
Then he met Conconi, he improved dramatically and won the Giro.
4 pursuit world champions went on to win a GT: Altig, Moser, Wiggo (of course) ... and Coppi !

So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?

Moser won 1 GT after the Italians designed the race for him and had a helicopter give him a tail wind in a TT and then the same helicopter give Fignon a head wind in the same TT.

The only thing Wiggo and Coppi share are they are dopers.
 
Dec 11, 2013
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BYOP88 said:
Cool!!! We're having the an individual pursuit guy can win a GT while being clean stuff again. It's good to have the 'greatest hits' set every once in a while.

In the absence of any new material you mean?:p
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
A pretty good analasys for everyone not from 'the Isles'. Stupid Europeans, know nothing...

I think you mean 'Continentals'. Ireland and the UK both being in Europe and all...

Stupid Continentals. Yes, I think that's the phrase you're looking for.
 
martinvickers said:
But people treat Wiggins as if got to explain Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination. He's a highly accomplished track cyclist who got dragged to one TdF on a reasonably friendly Parcours with his only real rival helping him do it.
All those parcors were friendly to Lance as well, so I don't see why that should be a variable. Besides, Wiggins dropped his opponents in the mountains anyway. The only think that made that Tour favourable to him was 1 tt too much. Take away 1 tt from the gc and wiggins still wins that TDF comfortably.

But as far as the dicussion of whether wiggins dominated the tdf which he was 2 seconds off leading the entire race, or whether he scraped through it, here is a fun fact.
Wiggos gap to Froome in the 2012 TDF was bigger than the gaps of the 4 previous grand tours put together.

And wiggos gap to the next non Sky rider - Nibali, was over 1 and a half minutes greater than the gaps of the 6 previous grand tours put together.:eek:
I tried to fit the 2010 Giro in as well to make it a magic 7 but alas it falls 25 seconds short. Judging how they performed though, had there been more mountains, it probably would have fit.
as if got to explain Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination.
If what you are saying is that Wiggins didn't win 7 tdfs like Lance did, well yeah, Wiggins only started being a beast at 32 years of age. 1 can use that exact same argument to say Horner isn't that suspicious because he's only won 1 gt - and it wasn't even the tdf.

But Lance never had anything close to the season wiggins had. He may have had more great seasons, but in all his tries he never came close to the all conquering one wiggins had in 2012.

Illustrated by the fact that Lance's highest ever cq points total was 2110 in 2002. THe other 6 occasions he didnt crack 2000.
In his one season on top Wiggins on the other hand scored 2687. Thats 25% more.

Wiggins also had according to cq, by far the most eficient cq season as far as race days per points scored goes.
He scored an average of 47,14 points per day in 2012.
Froome is next at 46,10 in 2013 and then theres a massive drop to the closest non Sky rating:
Gilbert 2011 42,97 points -
More importantly, since we are comparing to Lance, Lance's highest ever was - 35.76, far smaller than Wiggins.

You can say Wiggins didn't dominate like Lance if all you look for is longetivity.
But as far as their top ability goes, Wiggos one season at the top, alone was by all measures significantly better than any season Lance ever had.

So to your point about whether Wiggins acheived "Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination", he far surpassed them.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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The Hitch said:
So to your point about whether Wiggins acheived "Lance-esque achievements on the road, unbelivable domination", he far surpassed them.



TdF ITT Distances (approx, km)
2011 - 42
2012 - 95
2013 - 65
2014 - 54

Which year is best suited to a TT specialist?

I can't be bothered to do the same for climbing km.

Your CQ analysis would have been interesting if you'd included some riders Wiggins beat in 2012. Just in case there wasn't anybody on a good season in the same race. Just a thought.
 
Ventoux Boar said:
TdF ITT Distances (approx, km)
2011 - 42
2012 - 95
2013 - 65
2014 - 54

Which year is best suited to a TT specialist?

I can't be bothered to do the same for climbing km.

Your CQ analysis would have been interesting if you'd included some riders Wiggins beat in 2012. Just in case there wasn't anybody on a good season in the same race. Just a thought.
Did you check the ITT amount in 2006 and 2007 as well?

You'd notice that it's not 2012 that stands out (except hilarious bad mountain stages), but 2011 and 2013 that were extraordinary mountainous editions. Both with four hard MTFs and only one ITT for the TT-orientated to gain time.
 

Justinr

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Surely for a more valid comparision you should look at the other races in those years. Dauphine, etc? to see whether they were flatter, etc.

I think its widely acknowledged that when the 2012 route was announced people saw it as BWs best chance in years due to the relatively flat route and high levels of TT compared with the recent years.

I'm not sure its valid to make the BW / LA comparison since BW rode many more races (someone will no doubt prove me wrong now...) and therefore would have more chance of picking up CQ points.
 
lllludo said:
TdF = Tour de Francfort ??
Altig once won the Vuelta but it was not the same race as today. Not so many high climbs because not so many asphalted mountain road in Franco's spain.
To succeed on track you need track skills + watts and weight does not matter.
To succeed on the road in GT you need road skills + watts + low weight.
So not exactly the same characteristics.
Once in a while you find a "diamond" on track that can become a GT winner but before British Cycling it was rare (Hinault was a good track rider when young).
In the 70s a big guy like Moser was a great pursuiter but always handicapped big his big frame in the mountains... he tried to loose weight but lost some muscles and power doing so.
Then he met Conconi, he improved dramatically and won the Giro.
4 pursuit world champions went on to win a GT: Altig, Moser, Wiggo (of course) ... and Coppi !

So Wiggo and Coppi same type of athletes ?
:confused:

As stated earlier, Coppi won far, far more than Wiggins could have dreamed of and part of his career preceeded the Vuelta. Altig won the Vuelta when the parcours was almost a 21 day classic. Moser worked with Conconi, so make of that what you will.

Now for a few IP WC's and WR holders who turned pro on the road and came nowhere near winning a GT:

Chris Boardman
Brad McGee
Jack Bobridge
Jens Lehmann
Viatcheslav Ekimov
Taylor Phinney
Michael Hepburn
Robert Bartko

Some other very good pursuiters who are (or have been) on the road:

Jens Mouris
Mark Renshaw
Jesse Sergent
Luke Roberts
Luke Durbridge
Peter Post
Ole Ritter
Stuart O'Grady

None of them have, or did come close to winning a GT. Many were/are good TT'ers but none of them have come close to a GT podium. Until Wiggins, the last TdF winner to even medal at a track worlds was Jacques Anquetil in the 1950's. The 4km IP is NOT an indication of GT winning talent in this day and age. It's an indication of who has a long, steady turn of speed.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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With the exception of 2003(still my favourite Tour) Lance dominated all before him in those other Tours. There was one or two hiccups like Botero beating him in the MTT or the Morzine stage in 2000 but Wiggins's domination doesn't come anywhere near him.

What if Froome was allowed to go on La Toussuire at the time of his attack? Would Wiggins have even finished as the 2nd best climber in the race? Somehow I doubt it. Pinot and Nibali were dragged away from Wiggins too. He was isolated and was potentially on to lose a packet from it if Froome's hopes were transpired. Did Lance have any team mate held back in any of those Tours like that?

Favourable route and his team mate with the shackles on helped the cause. I did think back in 99 watching Lance that the route design helped him a lot and with Ullrich and Pantani back for 2000, he would have been found out. That was all blown out of the water on Hautacam so it didn't really matter the parcours with Lance.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
TdF ITT Distances (approx, km)
2011 - 42
2012 - 95
2013 - 65
2014 - 54

Which year is best suited to a TT specialist?

I can't be bothered to do the same for climbing km.

Your CQ analysis would have been interesting if you'd included some riders Wiggins beat in 2012. Just in case there wasn't anybody on a good season in the same race. Just a thought.

Wiggins was never really a great at long TTs until he became a GT rider though was he?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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42x16ss said:
Now for a few IP WC's and WR holders who turned pro on the road and came nowhere near winning a GT:

Chris Boardman...

Just an observation but Boardman was really unlucky timing-wise (as indeed were many of his contemporaries). He started his pro career ('93) just as EPO use was becoming prevelant throughout the peloton and retired (2000) just before EPO testing was introduced.
 
Justinr said:
Surely for a more valid comparision you should look at the other races in those years. Dauphine, etc? to see whether they were flatter, etc.

I think its widely acknowledged that when the 2012 route was announced people saw it as BWs best chance in years due to the relatively flat route and high levels of TT compared with the recent years.

I'm not sure its valid to make the BW / LA comparison since BW rode many more races (someone will no doubt prove me wrong now...) and therefore would have more chance of picking up CQ points.
Wiggins had 57 race days in 2012. That's quite low.

Armstrong had 56 race days (at least, CQ doesn't have all results from the old days, so there's some uncertainty regarding this) in 2004. 59 race days (again at least) in 2001. In 2009 and 2010 it was 60 and 54.
 
Wallace and Gromit said:
Just an observation but Boardman was really unlucky timing-wise (as indeed were many of his contemporaries). He started his pro career ('93) just as EPO use was becoming prevelant throughout the peloton and retired (2000) just before EPO testing was introduced.
And that was unlucky for him because???

Or do you really think he didn't use it :eek:
 

Justinr

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gooner said:
With the exception of 2003(still my favourite Tour) Lance dominated all before him in those other Tours. There was one or two hiccups like Botero beating him in the MTT or the Morzine stage in 2000 but Wiggins's domination doesn't come anywhere near him.


CBA to look it up but was that the one where they let some breakaway go and they ended up 30+ minutes down the GC?