Pulling a Wiggins

[martinvickers]

The second part of your post was in my opinion drivel...that's my opinion.

Well, I can only refer you to the third paragraph of my sig, then!

p.s. digger, that's meant as a joke by the way, not a personal insult.

 

[Digger]

Well, I can only refer you to the third paragraph of my sig, then.

You can't help yourself Martin!!! hahaha!

 

[gooner]

Fixed it for you. You don't know.

And btw what you are doing really is taking "clutching at straws" to its extreme. You are pointing out the slightest flaws in Bradleys 2012 performances, acting as if they could only have been suspicious if he had climbed like Pantani, ttd like Indurain, sprinted like Cipolini, beaten Boonen on the cobbles, won all 3 Ardennes, the worlds etc etc.

So it grand now to take all other GTs as you did to compare gaps from the winners and not for me to take pointers from them.

No he was not as dominant as Armstrong in some aspects of his TDF. So? he was as good as Armstrong in other aspects - recovery, and surpassed Armstrong in other aspects - tting. Failing to be as good as the most notorious doper in world history, at 1 or 2 aspects is supposed to be an argument for his cleanliness?

Armstrong was a super TTer in his 7 Tour wins, you clearly underestimate him there. Judging by some of your comments on here, I'm not so sure you have any knowledge whatsoever of Armstrong's wins. Did you even watch any of those wins, stage by stage? Do you remember him catching the world TT champion in Olano and the shock of the cycling world and David Duffield in commentary? Yet you still absurdly try to tell us Wiggins surpassed a doped up Lance with his performances and domination?

The standards of perfection you are measuring Wiggins against are so incredibly high, they are ridiculous.

Here is a list of people who have doped in cycling. http://www.dopeology.org/people/

99% of them acheived far less in their entire careers than Wiggins did in 2012. 99% of them never climbed as fast as Wiggins 99-100% of them never ttd as fast as him. They all doped and Wiggins was better than 99% of them.

People like Frei and Garcia doped heavily and only managed to be higher level domestiques. People like Alex Dinitz dope to be competitive in South American races. People like Valjavec and countless others doped to scrape top 10s. And you are here arguing that because Wiggins maybe showed a weakness once on one mountain stage his performance isn't radioactive?

I think you hold the suspicion barrier on Wiggins to such ridiculous standards even Pantani and Indurain and the rest wouldn't fail them - Pantani - not good enough in tts, Armstrong was better, Indurain - not enough mountain stage wins - a doped rider would have won them. etc,

That's not what I said and you know that. I think route design and circumstances in his own team played a part in the 2nd best climber mantra that you like to push. I made a case for against this argument using La Toussuire. Like MV how do you think Nibali would have performed in the last MTF with a gap of around 20 secs if he didn't have the injury. That you fail to grasp any of this, is your problem, not mine.

Again, you pushed the Armstrong one on us that he surpassed him which has been proved to be a falsehood on your part. You're the one who likes to beat the drum on knowledge on the sport over others and it's quite clear you're out of your depth on the Tours Lance won and in the manner he achieved them.

I already said I'm more reserved on Wiggins but doesn't mean he's clean. Favourable routes and his transformation at Garmin who I believe don't run a doping program, go a bit in his favour. Other aspects don't, like supporting Lance. At the end of the day he has to answer and live with it, not me. He comes across as a pr*ck but I won't leave that get in the way of judging what I see with his performances.

 

[Mellow Velo]

No matter how many times you keep saying Roche had a better year, does not make it true....

And no matter how many times you keep saying that PN, Romandie and the Dauphine are better than the Giro, won't make it true, either....

And funnily enough Wiggins in that post there says it all. He had a year to compare, in your eyes, with some of the greatest cyclists of all time.

Not bad for a grupetto rider.

That's because your basic premise was correct.
I wasn't arguing with it at any time.
Silly exaggeration to make a simple point, on the other hand, will get called out.
Try and keep those goalposts nailed down, next time.

 

[Digger]

And no matter how many times you keep saying that PN, Romandie and the Dauphine are better than the Giro, won't make it true, either....




That's because your basic premise was correct.
I wasn't arguing with it at any time. Silly exaggeration to make a simple point, on the other hand, will get called out.
Try and keep those goalposts nailed down, next time.

You were just flaming me so...cheers for admitting it though in fairness

 

[Mellow Velo]

It's off topic but I wonder what could have Maertens done if he didn't crash and injure himself badly during 1977 Giro.

Indeed.
Season long luck being as integral to the debate as doping.

 

[TailWindHome]

Tdf+gdi+wc+tdr > tdf+pn+tdr+dl+oitt

gdi+wc>pn+dl+oitt

 

[Digger]

36m 55secs...those are two interesting characters he's pacing under the KM to go flag. Not many Froome's there pacing him that day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AiCVzx2L8

 

[Mellow Velo]

Tdf+gdi+wc+tdr > tdf+pn+tdr+dl+oitt

gdi+wc>pn+dl+oitt

I'm not sure that simple maths is simple enough for someone who can never be wrong and always has to have the last word.

 

[Digger]

Wiggins finished 2hours 20mins down on GC in the Giro of 2009.
A result which was fairly typical, if not better than normal, for the guy.
Six weeks later he was doing that.

And we are meant to accept this.

 

[martinvickers]

2009 Ventoux after three weeks...not bad for a guy relying on TT's.

Nope, not bad. Not bad at all. Not exactly Pantani or Coppi. But then, I wasn't arguing he was actively bad on mountains. Only that his speciality is TT, and that's what won him his races, especially in the 2012 period under discussion. Which i proved. with the facts publically available.

This wasn't in 2012. And he didn't win either this stage, or the Tour.

But I do remember that stage, the last in the mountains, when all the 'heads of state' pulled away from him, and he ground like a devil to hang on to what was then 4th, the joint best British finish ever - the height of his ambition by that stage. he lost a minute to Tony Martin . He held on well to a younger Nibali though. Franck dropped him, as did Andy, Alberto, Lance. none of whom, oddly enough, were in the pointy end of the 2012 tour, come to mention it, for 'various' reasons.

I remember how they gave him a pasting on the way to Grand Bournard, mind you

You see the difficulty of comparisons across years; you can just as easily make the argument that in terms of gc, his peak road years - 28-32 years old - , that 2010 was the anomoly, rather than the rule; that he was competitive in 2009 (3rd/4th Tdf despite not being leader), 2011(Dauphine, a favourite for TdF before crash, 3rd Vuelta) and the wonder year of 2012 was simply it all coming together with a super-ready team and a superduperdomestique. He still got a World TT silver in 2013, once he's bucked his ideas up a bit, but he's not by any stretch a GC'er any more, much to the relief of many in this hallowed forum, methinks.

 

[The Hitch]

23 20secs in this clip is funny as the commentator wonders what the hell Wiggins is doing in this group...anyway must have been flat on Verbier that day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AiCVzx2L8

Not flat. 7.5% average gradient

That is hillarious. the clip is a total smackdown to 2 of the biggest defenses of wiggins - that he only emerged when cycling became clean, and that he only did well when he put his head to the 2012 course after he saw it was all tts.
Wait a minute, that's 2009 its dirty as hell, and Wiggins has just come off a brutal giro and suddenly decided he wants to come top 20 in the tour, having 0 experience with climbing and there he is climbing in an elite group with the best 4 climbers in the world, 3 of them who we now know were heavily doped, 1 who even Wiggins fans wouldn't argue, wasn't.

I've taken a screenshot

 

[Digger]

Not flat. 7.5% average gradient

That is hillarious. the clip is a total smackdown to 2 of the biggest defenses of wiggins - that he only emerged when cycling became clean, and that he only did well when he put his head to the 2012 course after he saw it was all tts.
Wait a minute, that's 2009 its dirty as hell, and Wiggins has just come off a brutal giro and suddenly decided he wants to come top 20 in the tour, having 0 experience with climbing and there he is climbing in an elite group with the best 4 climbers in the world, 3 of them who we now know were heavily doped, 1 who even Wiggins fans wouldn't argue, wasn't.

I've taken a screenshot

End of thread!!

 

[BYOP88]

Nope, not bad. Not bad at all. Not exactly Pantani or Coppi. But then, I wasn't arguing he was actively bad on mountains. Only that his speciality is TT, and that's what won him his races, especially in the 2012 period under discussion. Which i proved. with the facts publically available.

This wasn't in 2012. And he didn't win either this stage, or the Tour.

But I do remember that stage, the last in the mountains, when all the 'heads of state' pulled away from him, and he ground like a devil to hang on to what was then 4th, the joint best British finish ever - the height of his ambition by that stage. he lost a minute to Tony Martin . He held on well to a younger Nibali though. Franck dropped him, as did Andy, Alberto, Lance. none of whom, oddly enough, were in the pointy end of the 2012 tour, come to mention it, for 'various' reasons.

I remember how they gave him a pasting on the way to Grand Bournard, mind you

You see the difficulty of comparisons across years; you can just as easily make the argument that in terms of gc, his peak road years - 28-32 years old - , that 2010 was the anomoly, rather than the rule; that he was competitive in 2009 (3rd/4th Tdf despite not being leader), 2011(Dauphine, a favourite for TdF before crash, 3rd Vuelta) and the wonder year of 2012 was simply it all coming together with a super-ready team and a superduperdomestique. He still got a World TT silver in 2013, once he's bucked his ideas up a bit, but he's not by any stretch a GC'er any more, much to the relief of many in this hallowed forum, methinks.

Martin was in the break that stayed away.

 

[dolophonic]

Yup.. lock it.. bone idle W#N%E@$ !

 

[martinvickers]

Wiggins finished 2hours 20mins down on GC in the Giro of 2009.
A result which was fairly typical, if not better than normal, for the guy.
Six weeks later he was doing that.

And we are meant to accept this.

I don't really care what you accept, digger. That's not the measure of what's real. You really have to get over this idea that your own incredulity means anything in terms of solving these puzzles. i know you don't eamn anything by it, and you'r not the only guy to express yourself like this - but it's not really a sensible question, and it's not going to get a sensible answer.

What was he riding the Giro for? What were his motivations, team instructions, expectations? CVV crashes out on stage 3, wiggins disappears from top ten - they'd got second in the TTT, and wiggins repeated that in the final TT, as well as 7th in the longer mid race TT. Was he getting ready for the Tour? was he looking after CVV? was he there jsut for TT?

Are you suggesting he raced that race 100% all the way, going for the best time and position he could? because otherwise, the time gap isn't all that relevant.

 

[martinvickers]

Martin was in the break that stayed away.

I know that, hence the wink. It was just funny to note another TTer atop Ventoux.

 

[BYOP88]

I know that, hence the wink. It was just funny to note another TTer atop Ventoux.

Sorry Martin, I missed the wink, my bad.

 

[martinvickers]

You can't help yourself Martin!!! hahaha!

As I said, it was only a joke, Digger. And let's be absolutely clear - I include my own opinions in that group!

There's those HaHa's and exclamations again Digger.

Groundhog Day...and there's me thinking we were getting on!

 

[Digger]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/wiggins-values-point-to-cleaner-peloton/82092

Morkenberg said of these figures that they 'are not what you'd expect.'


Landis...USADA used his blood profile against him in arbitration...was very similar to this one by the way.

 

[Digger]

As I said, it was only a joke, Digger. And let's be absolutely clear - I include my own opinions in that group!

There's those HaHa's and exclamations again Digger.

Groundhog Day...and there's me thinking we were getting on!

to be fair to you I only saw the joke bit after I had posted...so fair enough.

 

[The Hitch]

Nope, not bad. Not bad at all. Not exactly Pantani or Coppi. But then, I wasn't arguing he was actively bad on mountains. Only that his speciality is TT, and that's what won him his races, especially in the 2012 period under discussion. Which i proved. with the facts publically available.
.

Well, not exactly, first of all, even without tts Wiggins still would have won the most important race- the 2012 Tour de France, which is quite some achievement for a tt specialist - to have beaten everyone even with the tts.

Secondly, what you said was that if there had been 0 tt's in any of those races Wiggins wouldn't have won, which is taking it a bit to the extreme since all those races generally have tts. PN had a longer tt the year before. Dauphine always has 1 long tt and a prologue, same as when Wiggins won it. Why does it matter who would have won those races if they didn't have time trials if they always have time trials?

Even if we follow your logic - no tts whatsoever, from what I saw you said about the Dauphine he would have still beaten Evans, and lost to Vino by 10 seconds or so. - So in a race with 2 major mountain stages, - Wiggins, the tt specialist, still would have come on the podium even with no tts.


Also 2 of those tts - Paris Nice and Romandie, the tt was uphill, so far more suited to climbers. Wiggins still won them, Crans despite the fact that he had a puncture and had to stop to change bikes.

And in Paris Nice and Romandie the big tt was at the end - after a week of racing. In wiggos case after a week of racing for gc. So recovery was important as well. None of which troubled wiggo.

Nope, not bad. Not bad at all. Not exactly Pantani or Coppi.

Nope, he didn't climb like Pantani. On the other hand, Pantani never ttd like Wiggins. Is only climbing suspect? Being a good tter more indicative of being clean? I don't know, taking a look at riders who won the worlds and olympic tts- Ullrich, Hamilton, Indurain, Olano, Rogers, Millar, Botero, I don't agree.

 

[BYOP88]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/wiggins-values-point-to-cleaner-peloton/82092

Morkenberg said of these figures that they 'are not what you'd expect.'


Landis...USADA used his blood profile against him in arbitration...was very similar to this one by the way.

St. Jonathan of Vaughters said the machine was dodgy that day. Seems Garmin suffer a lot of dodgy machine readings for their riders in the 3rd week of GT's.

 

[Beech Mtn]

23 20secs in this clip is funny as the commentator wonders what the hell Wiggins is doing in this group...anyway must have been flat on Verbier that day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2AiCVzx2L8

Keep watching. Wiggins around 29:50. The commentators are

And yet, St Jonathan of Vaughters wanted to keep Wiggins, rather than happily let his newly eyebrow-raising self go away from the clean team Garmin.

 

[Digger]

I don't really care what you accept, digger. That's not the measure of what's real. You really have to get over this idea that your own incredulity means anything in terms of solving these puzzles. i know you don't eamn anything by it, and you'r not the only guy to express yourself like this - but it's not really a sensible question, and it's not going to get a sensible answer.

What was he riding the Giro for? What were his motivations, team instructions, expectations? CVV crashes out on stage 3, wiggins disappears from top ten - they'd got second in the TTT, and wiggins repeated that in the final TT, as well as 7th in the longer mid race TT. Was he getting ready for the Tour? was he looking after CVV? was he there jsut for TT?

Are you suggesting he raced that race 100% all the way, going for the best time and position he could? because otherwise, the time gap isn't all that relevant.

for argument sake we go along with his...not saying I agree, but what about the other GT's he rode prior to 2009? The ones where he is telling Kimmage he will be struggling to finish inside time limits.