Pulling a Wiggins

[oldcrank]

Shirt looks nice enough.

Still the colours are a little dark for me to wear. I pretty much need to wear dayglo stuff so the Atlanta drivers can see me.

Well you wear it at D*ck Lane Velodrome, my friend.
http://www.lopro.blogspot.ca/2011/10/tony-doyle-mbe.html
Pretty much the GB kit from a few decades ago, as
you quite possibly know.

 

[Benotti69]

Well you wear it at D*ck Lane Velodrome, my friend.
http://www.lopro.blogspot.ca/2011/10/tony-doyle-mbe.html
Pretty much the GB kit from a few decades ago, as
you quite possibly know.

and to think Tony Doyle could won a TdF after all that time spent pursuiting...

 

[red_flanders]

How do you think Wiggins lost the weight? Thanks.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[bobbins]

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Is cortisone out of competition allowed? Legal but unethical?

 

[sniper]

Is cortisone out of competition allowed? Legal but unethical?

yes, but it has been well before 2009.
In 2009 the game changed.
AICAR.

 

[Benotti69]

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Are you asking for a possible legal weight loss method or the standard AICAR UCI unofficially approved method?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Is cortisone out of competition allowed? Legal but unethical?

Yes it is legal.

S9 of the WADA code applies only in competition.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Another drug which is mentioned by members here is Lipotropin.

This is a HGH fragment (also known as AOD-9604), which *I* would say falls under the S2 section, but it is not specifically spelled out. (Sort of like Xenon was already covered, but WADA explicitly added it)

It wouldn't take much of a lawyer to argue the case and obfuscate it enough to cause sufficient confusion.


Unlike cortisol/cortisone this is legally dubious, especially as it is injectable and thus falls foul of the no-needle policy in cycling.

A quick search came up with pricing of 20 euro for a 2000 microgram vial.

Dosing 'suggested' was 250 mcg subcutaneously, 3 times/day (5-7 days/week), so basically 2-3 vials/week.

40-60 euro plus the injection paraphernalia per week.

<edit>
Liptropin was explicitly ruled by WADA in 2013 as falling under S0

AOD-9604 is a substance still under pre-clinical and clinical development and has not been approved for therapeutic use by any government health authority in the world.

http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/wada-statement-on-substance-aod-9604/

 

[red_flanders]

Are you asking for a possible legal weight loss method or the standard AICAR UCI unofficially approved method?

Just asking for any opinion on what happened, rather than just picking at the minor details of other opinions.

So there are some nits to pick with posts. Fine. I would also like to hear what people think about the entire situation, given the evidence (not proof) we've seen over the years and the latest posts on the thread.

Does Wrinklyvet think Wiggins lost the weight with legal methods? What are they? What evidence is there that his is how he did it?

Illegal methods? If so, what, and any thoughts?

Just would be nice to hear some actual opinions rather than the picking at nits and putting nothing out there.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Of course just because Lipotropin is illegal, doesn't mean there is a test for it.

 

[sniper]

Just asking for any opinion on what happened, rather than just picking at the minor details of other opinions.

So there are some nits to pick with posts. Fine. I would also like to hear what people think about the entire situation, given the evidence (not proof) we've seen over the years and the latest posts on the thread.

Does Wrinklyvet think Wiggins lost the weight with legal methods? What are they? What evidence is there that his is how he did it?

Illegal methods? If so, what, and any thoughts?

Just would be nice to hear some actual opinions rather than the picking at nits and putting nothing out there.

Lipotropin is interesting.
As for AICAR, at the 2009 TdF AICAR ampules were found in the garbage bins, so we know for a fact that it was being used.
Otoh, here's Saugy downplaying the importance of AICAR and GW1516 in 2013

L’Aicar et le GW1516, pr?sent?s comme les nouveaux produits dopants ? la mode, agiraient de cette mani?re. ?Les donn?es de terrain que nous avons ne nous laissent pas penser que la consommation r?elle de ces deux produits soit si importante, mod?re Martial Saugy.

Wouldn't bet my life on Saugy telling the truth here though.

Brailsford's opinion:

Paul Kimmage asked Brailsford precisely how Peter Kennaugh had managed - by his own admission - to lose five kilograms since he lined up at the Tour de Romandie in late April.

"Through calorie deficit," Brailsford said bluntly, before then expanding slightly on his answer. "Why not speak to Nigel our nutritionist? It's a good question to ask. That is a lot of weight to lose and I totally agree with you. What do we do to get to that kind of weight loss? They're the types of questions that would be legitimate to answer. I don't think there's any great secret in that."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lessons-have-been-learned-says-brailsford

 

[Catwhoorg]

To be fair though Lipotropin and any other methods still would require significant calorie deficit.


Another angle is the use of stimulants (Methylhexanamine etc), again not a legal issue OOC, only banned IC.

A lot of 'supplements' add those for energy and to assist weight loss. They certainly help you exercise through caloric deficits.

 

[The Hitch]

Lipotropin is interesting.
As for AICAR, at the 2009 TdF AICAR ampules were found in the garbage bins, so we know for a fact that it was being used.
Otoh, here's Saugy downplaying the importance of AICAR and GW1516 in 2013
http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-france/actualites/le-dopage-du-futur-sera-genetique-643836Wouldn't bet my life on Saugy telling the truth here though.

Brailsford's opinion:

Paul Kimmage asked Brailsford precisely how Peter Kennaugh had managed - by his own admission - to lose five kilograms since he lined up at the Tour de Romandie in late April.

"Through calorie deficit," Brailsford said bluntly, before then expanding slightly on his answer. "Why not speak to Nigel our nutritionist? It's a good question to ask. That is a lot of weight to lose and I totally agree with you. What do we do to get to that kind of weight loss? They're the types of questions that would be legitimate to answer. I don't think there's any great secret in that."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lessons-have-been-learned-says-brailsford

garbage bins in 2009?

 

[sniper]

http://www.velonation.com/news/id/1...ccessful-test-for-banned-substance-aicar.aspx

garbage bins in 2009?

Yep.
Afld found remnants in bins of hematide and aicar.
http://www.velonation.com/news/id/11395/doping-aicar-telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx
for the record, aicar wasn't banned in 2009, only from 2010 onwards.
and the dustbins allegedly belonged to astana (see link at top)

 

[sniper]

Http://www.lematin.ch/sports/depech...r-detectable-questionsreponses/story/15214515

BTW, at present, only cologne lab can test for aicar (as of 2013), not lausanne nor chatenay malabry.(see link at top)
Cologne wasnt used for testing any 2014 Tdf samples though.

 

[thehog]

Http://www.lematin.ch/sports/depech...r-detectable-questionsreponses/story/15214515

BTW, at present, only cologne lab can test for aicar (as of 2013), not lausanne nor chatenay malabry.(see link at top)
Cologne wasnt used for testing any 2014 Tdf samples though.

Announce the AICAR test then don't test for it.

 

[D-Queued]

Announce the AICAR test then don't test for it.

Starting to sound like the good ol' times.

Like when the WADA overseers couldn't understand why all the suspicious riders weren't getting any EPO tests.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Who was in charge of the Passport program? Wasn't it that darn Dr. Zorzoli/Mr. Hyde guy?

Wonder what influence he had over AICAR?

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Starting to sound like the good ol' times.
Like when the WADA overseers couldn't understand why all the suspicious riders weren't getting any EPO tests.

true, though WADA and UCI seem to be more in tune these days. They have each others back.

Wonder what influence he had over AICAR?

The test for AICAR is a urine test. It would have been comparatively easy to store the urine samples and bring them to Cologne for extra AICAR testing.
Instead, UCI was very quick to announce zero positives for the TdF 2014, close the case and pretend AICAR doesn't exist.

There were no positive doping tests at this year?s Tour de France, the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation (CADF) announced Tuesday, on behalf of the UCI, as well as the UK and French anti-doping agencies.

?All the samples collected were systematically analyzed to detect stimulants and erythropoiesis,? said the UCI, the latter being the process which produces red blood cells.

?Isotope-ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS) was also analyzed in a certain number of samples, in particular to detect testosterone abuse and its precursors.?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...itive-doping-tests-2014-tour-de-france_343698

?I would like to thank the anti-doping bodies involved in the 2014 Tour de France operations for their collaboration, in particular the French Anti-Doping Agency and UK Anti-Doping, but also the World Anti-Doping Agency and the CADF,? said UCI president Brian Cookson. ?This sort of collaboration is absolutely necessary. Thanks to a sharing of information, the effectiveness of the testing distribution and therefore the overall anti-doping program is improved, with the stakeholders sharing their knowledge, their know-how and the information they have available. In addition, it increases the program?s transparency while obviously respecting the confidentiality regulations in force.?

 

[sniper]

reminiscing them days without rice cakes

 

[sniper]

Announce the AICAR test then don't test for it.

in 2013 UCI announced they 'could' retest the samples of the 2013 TdF.

Rossi said the foundation could re-test when the World Anti-Doping Agency certifies threshold limits for substances such as AICAR and growth hormones.

http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance...rance-cycling-body-says-no-doping-cases-found
Have looked online for any updates on that, but nothing, zilk.
I highly doubt the samples were ever retested.
Or they were, with undesired results.

 

[Hawkwood]

reminiscing them days without rice cakes

On a bike that weighed 10.9 kgs, heavy pure wool jersey and shorts, 52/42 or 52/45 up front, 13-21 or 23 on the rear.

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.velonation.com/news/id/1...ccessful-test-for-banned-substance-aicar.aspx



Yep.
Afld found remnants in bins of hematide and aicar.
http://www.velonation.com/news/id/11395/doping-aicar-telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx
for the record, aicar wasn't banned in 2009, only from 2010 onwards.
and the dustbins allegedly belonged to astana (see link at top)

So just to be clear, this is a correct timeline?

2000- Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2001 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2002 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2003 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2004 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2005 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2006 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2007 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
Wiggos own trainer says wiggins can get down to 75kg
2008 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling

2009 Suddenly wiggins is able to overnight find a method of losing an extra 5kg from nowhere. Coincidentally at exactly the same time AICAR appears in cycling and is known to have been in use at the Tour de France where Wiggins suddenly becomes a top gt rider, beating loads of dopers without really trying and despite being tired from the Giro.

 

[blackcat]

So just to be clear, this is a correct timeline?

2000- Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2001 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2002 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2003 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2004 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2005 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2006 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
2007 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling
Wiggos own trainer says wiggins can get down to 75kg
2008 - Wiggins weighs normal weight and AICAR isn't around in cycling

2009 Suddenly wiggins is able to overnight find a method of losing an extra 5kg from nowhere. Coincidentally at exactly the same time AICAR appears in cycling and is known to have been in use at the Tour de France where Wiggins suddenly becomes a top gt rider, beating loads of dopers without really trying and despite being tired from the Giro.

AICAR and other peptides.

 

[TailWindHome]

http://road.cc/content/news/143144-...tion-way-team-sky-chefs-performance-enhancing

 

[Ventoux Boar]

reminiscing them days without rice cakes

The only reason this thread is so much longer than those devoted to other obvious dopers (except LA) is because we need the images to diagnose autismic-aicar-peptide-delusional-grandeur.

Heck of a job, snipey.