QS 2018

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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Serpentin said:
Jungels, donkey turned race horse. Not every guy on a team should be able to win like this. All solo wins. They din`t have the numbers today besides Ala.
Jungels is exactly the kind of rider who should be winning big one day races. He's got an amazing engine, he climbs well, he's got a strong anaerobic kick and a half-decent sprint.

Whether or not there is a team-wide doping programme at Quickstep, Jungels certainly isn't, and never has been a donkey.
Thank you! Sometimes i ask myself, if the self proclaimed experts here ever even watched a full race before.
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
DFA123 said:
Serpentin said:
Jungels, donkey turned race horse. Not every guy on a team should be able to win like this. All solo wins. They din`t have the numbers today besides Ala.
Jungels is exactly the kind of rider who should be winning big one day races. He's got an amazing engine, he climbs well, he's got a strong anaerobic kick and a half-decent sprint.

Whether or not there is a team-wide doping programme at Quickstep, Jungels certainly isn't, and never has been a donkey.
Agreed but you can still take drugs even with a big engine. You can iron out any weak spots or down days.
Sure, and i won't put my hand into fire for Jungles. And of course QS is rather suspicious, but it's not like Jungels just popped onto the scene today.
 
Re:

rick james said:
If it was sky this thread would be 100 pages already, Hippocrates sadly
Um this thread was started at the beginning of this month and many of us were willing to wait and see. Now things are starting look a lot more suspicious than during the cobbled races which they have always been good in and always had teams for just many times very bad tactics. The Ardennes are a different story.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
thehog said:
DFA123 said:
Serpentin said:
Jungels, donkey turned race horse. Not every guy on a team should be able to win like this. All solo wins. They din`t have the numbers today besides Ala.
Jungels is exactly the kind of rider who should be winning big one day races. He's got an amazing engine, he climbs well, he's got a strong anaerobic kick and a half-decent sprint.

Whether or not there is a team-wide doping programme at Quickstep, Jungels certainly isn't, and never has been a donkey.
Agreed but you can still take drugs even with a big engine. You can iron out any weak spots or down days.
Of course. You just have to look at Indurain or Ullrich to see how they can take you to the next level. One thing Jungels has though, which is very difficult (maybe impossible) to fully creae using drugs, is that rounded power profile. I always think riders who have excellent aerobic, anaerobic and sprint power are the biggest natural talents. While my suspicion of 'donkey to racehorse' falls mostly on those who just have huge aerobic engines and not much else.
whatever you need to tell yourself
 
Re: Re:

Netserk said:
DFA123 said:
Of course. You just have to look at Indurain or Ullrich to see how they can take you to the next level. One thing Jungels has though, which is very difficult (maybe impossible) to fully creae using drugs, is that rounded power profile. I always think riders who have excellent aerobic, anaerobic and sprint power are the biggest natural talents. While my suspicion of 'donkey to racehorse' falls mostly on those who just have huge aerobic engines and not much else.
whatever you need to tell yourself
I'm not telling myself anything. It's a hypothesis based on several observed factors. Well done for the great contribution to the discussion though as usual. :eek:
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
rick james said:
If it was sky this thread would be 100 pages already, Hippocrates sadly
Um this thread was started at the beginning of this month and many of us were willing to wait and see. Now things are starting look a lot more suspicious than during the cobbled races which they have always been good in and always had teams for just many times very bad tactics. The Ardennes are a different story.
Not sure that's really true. They've been extremely strong in the hilly classics for a while now. In fact, with the exception of Valverde, they've been the dominant force in the Ardennes for the last few years or so.

LBL they were 2nd last year, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Fleche they were 2nd last year, 2nd and 3rd in 2016, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Amstel they were 1st last year, 6th in 2016, 1st in 2015, 5th in 2014.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Netserk said:
DFA123 said:
Of course. You just have to look at Indurain or Ullrich to see how they can take you to the next level. One thing Jungels has though, which is very difficult (maybe impossible) to fully creae using drugs, is that rounded power profile. I always think riders who have excellent aerobic, anaerobic and sprint power are the biggest natural talents. While my suspicion of 'donkey to racehorse' falls mostly on those who just have huge aerobic engines and not much else.
whatever you need to tell yourself
I'm not telling myself anything. It's a hypothesis based on several observed factors. Well done for the great contribution to the discussion though as usual. :eek:
It's a hypothesis based on not verifying if talent is actually natural before claiming someone who's a bit allround is a natural talent
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
rick james said:
If it was sky this thread would be 100 pages already, Hippocrates sadly
Um this thread was started at the beginning of this month and many of us were willing to wait and see. Now things are starting look a lot more suspicious than during the cobbled races which they have always been good in and always had teams for just many times very bad tactics. The Ardennes are a different story.
Not sure that's really true. They've been extremely strong in the hilly classics for a while now. In fact, with the exception of Valverde, they've been the dominant force in the Ardennes for the last few years or so.

LBL they were 2nd last year, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Fleche they were 2nd last year, 2nd and 3rd in 2016, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Amstel they were 1st last year, 6th in 2016, 1st in 2015, 5th in 2014.

A bunch of those podiums you mentioned are Dan Martin who's not there. He's at UAE and not exactly preforming very well which actually may lead to more questions.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
DFA123 said:
Netserk said:
DFA123 said:
Of course. You just have to look at Indurain or Ullrich to see how they can take you to the next level. One thing Jungels has though, which is very difficult (maybe impossible) to fully creae using drugs, is that rounded power profile. I always think riders who have excellent aerobic, anaerobic and sprint power are the biggest natural talents. While my suspicion of 'donkey to racehorse' falls mostly on those who just have huge aerobic engines and not much else.
whatever you need to tell yourself
I'm not telling myself anything. It's a hypothesis based on several observed factors. Well done for the great contribution to the discussion though as usual. :eek:
It's a hypothesis based on not verifying if talent is actually natural before claiming someone who's a bit allround is a natural talent
Wrong. At least I think what you said is wrong, it's a pretty clunky sentence you've written there. It's based on observing that doping vastly enhances aerobic power more than it does anaerobic or sprinting. Riders who only have strong aerobic power could be absolute donkeys who are massively doped up. Riders who have good all round power are much less likely to be donkeys.

You just need to look at the stories of riders in their youth career - i.e. when they were 12 or 13 and very unlikely to be doping. The ones who you hear about dominating everyone are those with the all round power profiles. The one dimensional aerobic beasts, tend to make big leaps after turning professional - with all which that entails.
 
i dont find the results suspiscious really,none of them was above what you would expect from those winners...the only race that is highly suspiscious was gilbert RvV last year

the way they won would be exactly how i would predict the race to unfold,one of them would eventually get away after few attacks and the chasers wouldnt cooperate or in Alaphil. case win by being strongest in last few hundreds of meters - and if vanendert was smarter who knows if he could beat him

i havent seen any otherwordly performance from QS this year,just bunch of guys who win by getting the tactics right and losing by getting the tactics wrong like in P-R
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
DFA123 said:
Koronin said:
rick james said:
If it was sky this thread would be 100 pages already, Hippocrates sadly
Um this thread was started at the beginning of this month and many of us were willing to wait and see. Now things are starting look a lot more suspicious than during the cobbled races which they have always been good in and always had teams for just many times very bad tactics. The Ardennes are a different story.
Not sure that's really true. They've been extremely strong in the hilly classics for a while now. In fact, with the exception of Valverde, they've been the dominant force in the Ardennes for the last few years or so.

LBL they were 2nd last year, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Fleche they were 2nd last year, 2nd and 3rd in 2016, 2nd in 2015, 3rd in 2014.
Amstel they were 1st last year, 6th in 2016, 1st in 2015, 5th in 2014.

A bunch of those podiums you mentioned are Dan Martin who's not there. He's at UAE and not exactly preforming very well which actually may lead to more questions.
Sure; I'm certainly not vouching for them being clean. But you said the Ardennes are a different story. Which isn't the case. They have been the best all round team there for the last few years, and would have been even more dominant there than on the cobbles if it wasn't for Valverde constantly pipping them to the line. And they only let Martin go because they believe (seemingly correctly) that Alaphilippe is better than him.
 
There's no way Jungels was ever a donkey.

And it's not surprising that he can ride a good LBL. Mind you, he was dropped in AG and has hardly shown the kind of form that made this look possible.

On top of everything else this spring, and given the history of the sport, at least half an eyebrow ought to be raised. It's so hard to win even one classic - there are so many genuine contenders who target specific races, and the level is so high. Even more so for a monument.

The 'good tactics' argument is a bit short sighted - you need the legs as well; amazing, amazing legs to pull off a long range attack in a field of champions, many of whom have peaked for that day.

When so many QS'ers have such amazing, amazing legs, well, it's definitely eyebrow raising.
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
There's no way Jungels was ever a donkey.

And it's not surprising that he can ride a good LBL. Mind you, he was dropped in AG and has hardly shown the kind of form that made this look possible.

On top of everything else this spring, and given the history of the sport, at least half an eyebrow ought to be raised. It's so hard to win even one classic - there are so many genuine contenders who target specific races, and the level is so high. Even more so for a monument.

The 'good tactics' argument is a bit short sighted - you need the legs as well; amazing, amazing legs to pull off a long range attack in a field of champions, many of whom have peaked for that day.

When so many QS'ers have such amazing, amazing legs, well, it's definitely eyebrow raising.

For me, it's the entire body of work this year where the eyebrow has to be raised. Then add in the factor that Dan Martin has been nowhere to be found this year leads to another eyebrow being raised.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
The Hegelian said:
There's no way Jungels was ever a donkey.

And it's not surprising that he can ride a good LBL. Mind you, he was dropped in AG and has hardly shown the kind of form that made this look possible.

On top of everything else this spring, and given the history of the sport, at least half an eyebrow ought to be raised. It's so hard to win even one classic - there are so many genuine contenders who target specific races, and the level is so high. Even more so for a monument.

The 'good tactics' argument is a bit short sighted - you need the legs as well; amazing, amazing legs to pull off a long range attack in a field of champions, many of whom have peaked for that day.

When so many QS'ers have such amazing, amazing legs, well, it's definitely eyebrow raising.

For me, it's the entire body of work this year where the eyebrow has to be raised. Then add in the factor that Dan Martin has been nowhere to be found this year leads to another eyebrow being raised.
I saw nothing strange about today, nor in any of the other classics I've watched this year. What I don't see is ridiculous performances by riders who used to suck. Dan Martin may not be getting the same horsepower in his bike now that he doesn't ride for JV anymore (and with a new UCI head).
 
Re: Re:

Huapango said:
Koronin said:
The Hegelian said:
There's no way Jungels was ever a donkey.

And it's not surprising that he can ride a good LBL. Mind you, he was dropped in AG and has hardly shown the kind of form that made this look possible.

On top of everything else this spring, and given the history of the sport, at least half an eyebrow ought to be raised. It's so hard to win even one classic - there are so many genuine contenders who target specific races, and the level is so high. Even more so for a monument.

The 'good tactics' argument is a bit short sighted - you need the legs as well; amazing, amazing legs to pull off a long range attack in a field of champions, many of whom have peaked for that day.

When so many QS'ers have such amazing, amazing legs, well, it's definitely eyebrow raising.

For me, it's the entire body of work this year where the eyebrow has to be raised. Then add in the factor that Dan Martin has been nowhere to be found this year leads to another eyebrow being raised.
I saw nothing strange about today, nor in any of the other classics I've watched this year. What I don't see is ridiculous performances by riders who used to suck. Dan Martin may not be getting the same horsepower in his bike now that he doesn't ride for JV anymore (and with a new UCI head).

I actually like QS, but the dominance they are showing pretty much everywhere is raising some questions. Then add in the fact that Dan Martin is no where to be found after leaving. There are definitely question marks there.
 
doesn't it make sense for a weaker rider on a stronger team to be able to nab results they couldn't have accomplished riding totally solo? IOW the QS boys should all be punching above their weight, benefiting from team tactics and circumstance, and when they move to another team their results would suffer.
 
Re:

proffate said:
doesn't it make sense for a weaker rider on a stronger team to be able to nab results they couldn't have accomplished riding totally solo? IOW the QS boys should all be punching above their weight, benefiting from team tactics and circumstance, and when they move to another team their results would suffer.
Surely it cuts both ways. i.e. if you're in super good form, but on a strong team, you may have to sacrifice results that you would otherwise get being a leader on a weaker team.
 
my fave team dedicate themselves to my fave races sign best riders for these races and win shock!

...but this year is different a 'lil luck and a whole lot of indecision and negativity from rivals

Mark L
 
"...attacked on the descent and time trialed to victory, exploiting tactical advantage of having race favourite behind..."

Well, yes. But....

He also smashed the decisive climb of the day - 11%'ish - in which numerous favorites were dropped.....and only then, did he attack on the descent. Gilbert opened it up and Jungels smashed it apart. Good tactics yeah, but how strong do you have to be make that kind of attack on the climb and then, without a pause, stomp home for 20 more k?

Say what you will, I never thought Jungels had that kind of puncheur power in him before - the kind that can split a LBL field deep into the race.

If he just slipped away on the flats, then I would agree, 'nothing to see here.'
 

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